So you want to go FI?
03-22-06, 01:00 PM
#31
Lexus Test Driver
Ohhh, don't be skurd!!!!! 
Seriously, Morris is exactly right.
I meet people all the time that get all excited when I go thru the whole spill about all the parts and things we've done to our cars, only to see the paleness and deep gulps when I get to the end and tell the cost of doing business......
I had a kid tell me at NOPI nats that I was crazy for spending that kind of money on my car when he could get the same HP number out of a Honda.....
I wanted to just kick his *** right then and there, but another bystander just busted out laughing and got him good for me. He told the kid, "HE drives a pimped out Lexus and you wanna compare it to a gutted Honda???" I couldn't help but laugh and walk away.
Ignorance is a funny thing. Some people like to bench race and magazine shop. The price tag is only the beginning when you are dealing with our cars. If we all had Honda Civics, this wouldn't even be an issue. We could get all the HP we ever wanted for a whole lot less.
Seriously, Morris is exactly right.
I meet people all the time that get all excited when I go thru the whole spill about all the parts and things we've done to our cars, only to see the paleness and deep gulps when I get to the end and tell the cost of doing business......
I had a kid tell me at NOPI nats that I was crazy for spending that kind of money on my car when he could get the same HP number out of a Honda.....
I wanted to just kick his *** right then and there, but another bystander just busted out laughing and got him good for me. He told the kid, "HE drives a pimped out Lexus and you wanna compare it to a gutted Honda???" I couldn't help but laugh and walk away. Ignorance is a funny thing. Some people like to bench race and magazine shop. The price tag is only the beginning when you are dealing with our cars. If we all had Honda Civics, this wouldn't even be an issue. We could get all the HP we ever wanted for a whole lot less.
03-22-06, 01:11 PM
#32
Bottom line is what you want to do.
Better to save money and drive a fast honda if driving fast alone is what you are looking for... modding the GS4 is worth the $$$ if shows, being unique, and driving fast safely and comfortably is what you want... (Cliff notes explination)
Personally I decided to have 1 car for comfort and will eventually get another for speed, tinkering, and enjoyment (manual tranny)....
Or I am going to get the next model Camaro with a 400+ HP... whichever comes first.
Better to save money and drive a fast honda if driving fast alone is what you are looking for... modding the GS4 is worth the $$$ if shows, being unique, and driving fast safely and comfortably is what you want... (Cliff notes explination)
Personally I decided to have 1 car for comfort and will eventually get another for speed, tinkering, and enjoyment (manual tranny)....
Or I am going to get the next model Camaro with a 400+ HP... whichever comes first.
03-23-06, 10:03 PM
#33
Lexus Champion
If we are looking for some serious power. Piggyback system won't do the trick on these OBDII cars. We tested various aftermarket piggback system and none of them work really well. Currently testing the PCS set up, it's utilizes the deadhead fuel system. Going F.I is never never cheap. Most people think just bolt on a turbo and it will go fast... 
JPI
JPI
03-25-06, 06:24 PM
#37
It was running fine, up untill last night 
, I had a minor fender bender while on my trip down to Jacksonville. It is running very strong, still have the CEL from the o2 sensors but no biggy. I did manage to pass the stte emissions inspection a couple of weeks agon. I am happy to say that I have not had the problem of the ECU fighting with the SAFC for controll of the fuel mix. I had to turn the boost down a bit since my injectors are too small. I am at 16 psi. I think I see a BBK , grill and a body kit in my near term future. I am still looking for someone that needs some 370 injectors so I can buy the 440's but untill that comes together I will just have to deal with the 16psi max limit.
The biggest problem I have had was a boost leak from couplers popping off and I did have a bad knock sensor, which I replaced. Oh and I have a oil leak that I havent gotten around to dealing with yet. But the point is that it is all minor stuff. I have about 6K miles on the new engine and turbo kit.
, I had a minor fender bender while on my trip down to Jacksonville. It is running very strong, still have the CEL from the o2 sensors but no biggy. I did manage to pass the stte emissions inspection a couple of weeks agon. I am happy to say that I have not had the problem of the ECU fighting with the SAFC for controll of the fuel mix. I had to turn the boost down a bit since my injectors are too small. I am at 16 psi. I think I see a BBK , grill and a body kit in my near term future. I am still looking for someone that needs some 370 injectors so I can buy the 440's but untill that comes together I will just have to deal with the 16psi max limit.The biggest problem I have had was a boost leak from couplers popping off and I did have a bad knock sensor, which I replaced. Oh and I have a oil leak that I havent gotten around to dealing with yet. But the point is that it is all minor stuff. I have about 6K miles on the new engine and turbo kit.
03-25-06, 06:40 PM
#38
Lexus Champion
Originally Posted by morris
It was running fine, up untill last night , I had a minor fender bender while on my trip down to Jacksonville. It is running very strong, still have the CEL from the o2 sensors but no biggy. I did manage to pass the stte emissions inspection a couple of weeks agon. I am happy to say that I have not had the problem of the ECU fighting with the SAFC for controll of the fuel mix. I had to turn the boost down a bit since my injectors are too small. I am at 16 psi. I think I see a BBK , grill and a body kit in my near term future. I am still looking for someone that needs some 370 injectors so I can buy the 440's but untill that comes together I will just have to deal with the 16psi max limit.
The biggest problem I have had was a boost leak from couplers popping off and I did have a bad knock sensor, which I replaced. Oh and I have a oil leak that I havent gotten around to dealing with yet. But the point is that it is all minor stuff. I have about 6K miles on the new engine and turbo kit.
, I had a minor fender bender while on my trip down to Jacksonville. It is running very strong, still have the CEL from the o2 sensors but no biggy. I did manage to pass the stte emissions inspection a couple of weeks agon. I am happy to say that I have not had the problem of the ECU fighting with the SAFC for controll of the fuel mix. I had to turn the boost down a bit since my injectors are too small. I am at 16 psi. I think I see a BBK , grill and a body kit in my near term future. I am still looking for someone that needs some 370 injectors so I can buy the 440's but untill that comes together I will just have to deal with the 16psi max limit.The biggest problem I have had was a boost leak from couplers popping off and I did have a bad knock sensor, which I replaced. Oh and I have a oil leak that I havent gotten around to dealing with yet. But the point is that it is all minor stuff. I have about 6K miles on the new engine and turbo kit.
JPI
03-25-06, 07:07 PM
#39
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by JPI
If we are looking for some serious power. Piggyback system won't do the trick on these OBDII cars. We tested various aftermarket piggback system and none of them work really well. Currently testing the PCS set up, it's utilizes the deadhead fuel system. Going F.I is never never cheap. Most people think just bolt on a turbo and it will go fast...
JPI
JPI
Add this to the above mentioned deadhead fuel system and you have even more problems. Booster pumps, tricking injector output pulses, tricking sensors, etc. can only go so far, and are band aid solutions at best. If you are running low boost you can probably get away with something like this, but you will probably never have things completely right under the no-boost situations, and still never completely right under the boost situations. Higher boost levels will increase problems exponentially with each incremental PSI.
Add even more the fragilty of the internals of these Lexus cars and you are asking for trouble in many ways. They are not strong, but yes if you had everything else right with the fuel issues, you might be ok. But these cars were designed to make a lot of power per CI in their present form, which means lighter, more efficient pistons, lighter, more efficient rods, and with those the inability to operate under sustained stress situations.
There are also other issues with the GS ECU and the things it controls, needs to control, and needs to think it controls, and it's hypocondriac personality with the myriad of sensors and the double and sometimes triple backup algorithms that it posesses. This just adds to the already basic mechanical issues mentioned previous.
Just about anyone can bolt up a turbo or a blower. Just about anyone can mount an intercooler and attach some intake piping here and there throughout the engine compartment. Heck I've even seen some guy weld two turbos to his exhaust manifolds sticking out the bottom of the car and lay claim to a revolutionary twin turbo setup. This is not really the hard part to get these on the car and get them to work. The hard part is to get the vehicle to work completely as-intended from before you started.
Putting on a turbo or blower nicely is also another challenge. This is where you separate the men from the boys. I have only seen a handful of setups that everything was done in a truly clean, properly engineered manner, with all other accompanying aspects being equally as well executed (piping, intercooler mounting, plumbing, wiring, fuel system, fuel management, etc.) More often than not the installs will fall short somewhere with those (perceived to be) extraneous items mentioned (if they haven't already fallen short with the basic installation of the unit itself!), since they are all too commonly thought of as just "necessary evils", where in reality, those are equal parts of a complete, well engineered package.
Like JPI said, slap on a turbo or blower, and you have only cracked the lid open on the can of worms - both time and money. For a very thorough system with everything done "right", I doubt you can properly do it for less than $10,000. $15,000+ is probably more realistic.
Driving your car around stinking rich or blowing black smoke under boost is not really "right", nor is rattling your pistons apart that time you drove up the I-15 grade right past Baker in the 120 degree desert heat after you filled up with that pseudo 91 octane gas you got at the Baker Chevron.
It's just not an easy road is all that is being said here.
03-25-06, 07:58 PM
#40
Lexus Champion
Originally Posted by DoubleWhoosh
Agreed. There are many issues that need to be addressed correctly if you are going to create a boost situation on a car that was never intended to have it in the first place. Sensors are only one of them, the computer will also not understand what is going on, and you have so many variable combinations of boost level/rpm/load.
Add this to the above mentioned deadhead fuel system and you have even more problems. Booster pumps, tricking injector output pulses, tricking sensors, etc. can only go so far, and are band aid solutions at best. If you are running low boost you can probably get away with something like this, but you will probably never have things completely right under the no-boost situations, and still never completely right under the boost situations. Higher boost levels will increase problems exponentially with each incremental PSI.
Add even more the fragilty of the internals of these Lexus cars and you are asking for trouble in many ways. They are not strong, but yes if you had everything else right with the fuel issues, you might be ok. But these cars were designed to make a lot of power per CI in their present form, which means lighter, more efficient pistons, lighter, more efficient rods, and with those the inability to operate under sustained stress situations.
There are also other issues with the GS ECU and the things it controls, needs to control, and needs to think it controls, and it's hypocondriac personality with the myriad of sensors and the double and sometimes triple backup algorithms that it posesses. This just adds to the already basic mechanical issues mentioned previous.
Just about anyone can bolt up a turbo or a blower. Just about anyone can mount an intercooler and attach some intake piping here and there throughout the engine compartment. Heck I've even seen some guy weld two turbos to his exhaust manifolds sticking out the bottom of the car and lay claim to a revolutionary twin turbo setup. This is not really the hard part to get these on the car and get them to work. The hard part is to get the vehicle to work completely as-intended from before you started.
Putting on a turbo or blower nicely is also another challenge. This is where you separate the men from the boys. I have only seen a handful of setups that everything was done in a truly clean, properly engineered manner, with all other accompanying aspects being equally as well executed (piping, intercooler mounting, plumbing, wiring, fuel system, fuel management, etc.) More often than not the installs will fall short somewhere with those (perceived to be) extraneous items mentioned (if they haven't already fallen short with the basic installation of the unit itself!), since they are all too commonly thought of as just "necessary evils", where in reality, those are equal parts of a complete, well engineered package.
Like JPI said, slap on a turbo or blower, and you have only cracked the lid open on the can of worms - both time and money. For a very thorough system with everything done "right", I doubt you can properly do it for less than $10,000. $15,000+ is probably more realistic.
Driving your car around stinking rich or blowing black smoke under boost is not really "right", nor is rattling your pistons apart that time you drove up the I-15 grade right past Baker in the 120 degree desert heat after you filled up with that pseudo 91 octane gas you got at the Baker Chevron.
It's just not an easy road is all that is being said here.
Add this to the above mentioned deadhead fuel system and you have even more problems. Booster pumps, tricking injector output pulses, tricking sensors, etc. can only go so far, and are band aid solutions at best. If you are running low boost you can probably get away with something like this, but you will probably never have things completely right under the no-boost situations, and still never completely right under the boost situations. Higher boost levels will increase problems exponentially with each incremental PSI.
Add even more the fragilty of the internals of these Lexus cars and you are asking for trouble in many ways. They are not strong, but yes if you had everything else right with the fuel issues, you might be ok. But these cars were designed to make a lot of power per CI in their present form, which means lighter, more efficient pistons, lighter, more efficient rods, and with those the inability to operate under sustained stress situations.
There are also other issues with the GS ECU and the things it controls, needs to control, and needs to think it controls, and it's hypocondriac personality with the myriad of sensors and the double and sometimes triple backup algorithms that it posesses. This just adds to the already basic mechanical issues mentioned previous.
Just about anyone can bolt up a turbo or a blower. Just about anyone can mount an intercooler and attach some intake piping here and there throughout the engine compartment. Heck I've even seen some guy weld two turbos to his exhaust manifolds sticking out the bottom of the car and lay claim to a revolutionary twin turbo setup. This is not really the hard part to get these on the car and get them to work. The hard part is to get the vehicle to work completely as-intended from before you started.
Putting on a turbo or blower nicely is also another challenge. This is where you separate the men from the boys. I have only seen a handful of setups that everything was done in a truly clean, properly engineered manner, with all other accompanying aspects being equally as well executed (piping, intercooler mounting, plumbing, wiring, fuel system, fuel management, etc.) More often than not the installs will fall short somewhere with those (perceived to be) extraneous items mentioned (if they haven't already fallen short with the basic installation of the unit itself!), since they are all too commonly thought of as just "necessary evils", where in reality, those are equal parts of a complete, well engineered package.
Like JPI said, slap on a turbo or blower, and you have only cracked the lid open on the can of worms - both time and money. For a very thorough system with everything done "right", I doubt you can properly do it for less than $10,000. $15,000+ is probably more realistic.
Driving your car around stinking rich or blowing black smoke under boost is not really "right", nor is rattling your pistons apart that time you drove up the I-15 grade right past Baker in the 120 degree desert heat after you filled up with that pseudo 91 octane gas you got at the Baker Chevron.
It's just not an easy road is all that is being said here.
PS: Todd, How is your project coming alone?
JPI
03-31-06, 12:35 PM
#41
Lexus Test Driver
I'm gonna ask a stupid question. What is a "deadhead" fuel system?
As yall know, I daily drive my car and so far haven't had any major issues, although I'm only at 7-8 psi too. I'm using the 370's RC's and SAFCII. Only code I ever got was shift solenoid malfunction and I think I know why that is. My wideband says I'm at 11 to 1 when I'm WOT under boost. Knock sensor seems to be reading w/i reasonable levels. All of my settings on the AFC are negative numbers.
All that background aside, I'm going to eventually turn up the boost. Obviously the stock motor will have to be strengthened as my buddy Morris did. I know that the ECU/fuel side of things is what's always caused headaches for everyone. My question is: Does anyone have a solution that does NOT involve a full blown stand alone FMS? Anything out there for like 15 psi and less for example.
As yall know, I daily drive my car and so far haven't had any major issues, although I'm only at 7-8 psi too. I'm using the 370's RC's and SAFCII. Only code I ever got was shift solenoid malfunction and I think I know why that is. My wideband says I'm at 11 to 1 when I'm WOT under boost. Knock sensor seems to be reading w/i reasonable levels. All of my settings on the AFC are negative numbers.
All that background aside, I'm going to eventually turn up the boost. Obviously the stock motor will have to be strengthened as my buddy Morris did. I know that the ECU/fuel side of things is what's always caused headaches for everyone. My question is: Does anyone have a solution that does NOT involve a full blown stand alone FMS? Anything out there for like 15 psi and less for example.
03-31-06, 01:29 PM
#42
Originally Posted by jmecbr900
I'm gonna ask a stupid question. What is a "deadhead" fuel system?
As yall know, I daily drive my car and so far haven't had any major issues, although I'm only at 7-8 psi too. I'm using the 370's RC's and SAFCII. Only code I ever got was shift solenoid malfunction and I think I know why that is. My wideband says I'm at 11 to 1 when I'm WOT under boost. Knock sensor seems to be reading w/i reasonable levels. All of my settings on the AFC are negative numbers.
All that background aside, I'm going to eventually turn up the boost. Obviously the stock motor will have to be strengthened as my buddy Morris did. I know that the ECU/fuel side of things is what's always caused headaches for everyone. My question is: Does anyone have a solution that does NOT involve a full blown stand alone FMS? Anything out there for like 15 psi and less for example.
As yall know, I daily drive my car and so far haven't had any major issues, although I'm only at 7-8 psi too. I'm using the 370's RC's and SAFCII. Only code I ever got was shift solenoid malfunction and I think I know why that is. My wideband says I'm at 11 to 1 when I'm WOT under boost. Knock sensor seems to be reading w/i reasonable levels. All of my settings on the AFC are negative numbers.
All that background aside, I'm going to eventually turn up the boost. Obviously the stock motor will have to be strengthened as my buddy Morris did. I know that the ECU/fuel side of things is what's always caused headaches for everyone. My question is: Does anyone have a solution that does NOT involve a full blown stand alone FMS? Anything out there for like 15 psi and less for example.
Jonny
03-31-06, 01:54 PM
#43
Originally Posted by Dx3
I am still using the SAFC 2 and at one point I was up to 13psi. I have heard about split second but when I email them they never return my messages. So the answer right now is no. At least as far as I know there isn't.
Jonny
Jonny
I have a split second on the Wifeys Vortec Supercharged IS. In this set up the Split Second controls the additional injector, while we have E-manage controlling everything else.
Somebody really needs to go to the Super E-manage. From what I understood, the fuel injectors are controlled directly by the S-Emanage by a direct wiring harness going to the injectors.
Unless I'm mistaken, this would eliminate the factory ECU from the fuel management duties and all the control issues we are seeing with the piggy back set ups.
Anybody have more input / knowledge on the Super E-manage?
03-31-06, 02:07 PM
#45
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by jmecbr900
I'm gonna ask a stupid question. What is a "deadhead" fuel system?
As yall know, I daily drive my car and so far haven't had any major issues, although I'm only at 7-8 psi too. I'm using the 370's RC's and SAFCII. Only code I ever got was shift solenoid malfunction and I think I know why that is. My wideband says I'm at 11 to 1 when I'm WOT under boost. Knock sensor seems to be reading w/i reasonable levels. All of my settings on the AFC are negative numbers.
All that background aside, I'm going to eventually turn up the boost. Obviously the stock motor will have to be strengthened as my buddy Morris did. I know that the ECU/fuel side of things is what's always caused headaches for everyone. My question is: Does anyone have a solution that does NOT involve a full blown stand alone FMS? Anything out there for like 15 psi and less for example.
As yall know, I daily drive my car and so far haven't had any major issues, although I'm only at 7-8 psi too. I'm using the 370's RC's and SAFCII. Only code I ever got was shift solenoid malfunction and I think I know why that is. My wideband says I'm at 11 to 1 when I'm WOT under boost. Knock sensor seems to be reading w/i reasonable levels. All of my settings on the AFC are negative numbers.
All that background aside, I'm going to eventually turn up the boost. Obviously the stock motor will have to be strengthened as my buddy Morris did. I know that the ECU/fuel side of things is what's always caused headaches for everyone. My question is: Does anyone have a solution that does NOT involve a full blown stand alone FMS? Anything out there for like 15 psi and less for example.
Return style systems use the return line as the means to manipulate the fuel pressure across the injectors, or to at least reference them to a constant pressure in relation to the engine's vacuum or boost.