Joez intake concerns...
#16
Originally Posted by 4TehNguyen
would help if some company made an intake manifold gasket that insulates the engine block from the intake manifold. Hondata makes these for honda engines, they work good
#17
I never gave all this any thought, but now that I've read all your posts,
It defiently makes sense that the Joez pipe will increase air temps,
(after the engine gets hot) that is.. By how much exactly? Who knows,
but it's stands to reason it could cause you to lose a bit of power.
Needless to say, If i get a Joez Intake, I'm going to find some good black
thermal tape and wrap the hell out of it
It defiently makes sense that the Joez pipe will increase air temps,
(after the engine gets hot) that is.. By how much exactly? Who knows,
but it's stands to reason it could cause you to lose a bit of power.
Needless to say, If i get a Joez Intake, I'm going to find some good black
thermal tape and wrap the hell out of it
#18
Originally Posted by caymandive
The resonator and the accordian section of an intake pipe can be very restrictive to air flow. These pieces are designed to reduce intake sound, and performance is not typically a greatest concern here as we are only talking maybe 5hp in exchange for a quiet intake system. Removing the resonator and the accordion part of the intake tube works as left in it does not allow very good air flow. The ribs of the hose extend into the air flow and cause turbulence, reducing flow.
The JOEZ intake pipe addresses both of these 2 concerns. How can we go wrong!?
The JOEZ intake pipe addresses both of these 2 concerns. How can we go wrong!?
I understand EXACTLY what the joez intake accomplishes, where you go wrong is HEAT. The fact that it is only making 4-6HP on a non-heat soaked setup is a concern. How much do you think it will make when the temp increases by well over 100 degrees? At best, you're probably back to stock, at worst, you're loseing power.
#19
ill bet the intake tube temp when your actually driving (high intake flow) is going to be a lot lower than idle (very low intake flow), and I wouldnt be suprised that it would be close to ambient during driving. Feeling the intake at idle doesnt really prove anything
i would say replacing just a tube for that much power gain is great, despite still using the stock airbox and stock filter
Originally Posted by Ramon
I understand EXACTLY what the joez intake accomplishes, where you go wrong is HEAT. The fact that it is only making 4-6HP on a non-heat soaked setup is a concern. How much do you think it will make when the temp increases by well over 100 degrees? At best, you're probably back to stock, at worst, you're loseing power.
#20
Originally Posted by Ramon
I understand EXACTLY what the joez intake accomplishes, where you go wrong is HEAT. The fact that it is only making 4-6HP on a non-heat soaked setup is a concern. How much do you think it will make when the temp increases by well over 100 degrees? At best, you're probably back to stock, at worst, you're loseing power.
#21
Originally Posted by caymandive
Their conclusion was that the air is passing through the pipe at a high enough speed that it does not have time to pick up any heat from the pipe itself.
Also, what testing procedures did they use? Off the top of my head:
1. did they have the car at idle for any amount of time or did they run the engine at higher rpms allowing the tube to cool down before taking the measurements?
2. did they have the hood open or closed? My guess is that they left it open for their measureing tools. I guess if you drive around with your hood open....
3. how many fans, if any, were blowing into the engine compartment?
Further evidence of this is the fact that the Ice Man brand intake system, made of heat insulating PVC plastic, tested at 9 HP while the AEM brand intake system, made of heat conducting aluminum, tested at 12.9 HP. The conclusion is clear that the design of the intake system is more important than what type of pipe is used to make the intake system"
In addition, I always take a magazines info/advice with a grain of salt where it's livelihood is on the line. It would be hard to imagine SCC saying that aftermarket parts don't do diddly when that's the entire subject matter and reason for existence of the mag and where they get their advertising dollars.
I guess it all comes down to whether smoothing interior of the tube and eliminating the resonator overcomes any heat soak issues, real or imagined. I think there's enough info on this thread so that the forum members will be able to make at least an educated guess.
Last edited by al503; 05-31-06 at 11:06 AM.
#22
4TehNguyen, you seem to have a misconception of the laws of physics... When you're actually driving, you're using more energy, hence, creating more heat. The only reason it is not as hot when driving is becuase the air is passing through the intake and INTO the motor. That's what is cooling it down. If the heat was simply being dissapated into the atmosphere, like it does with your radiator, then all is well. That is not what is happening, the heated air is going straight into the motor. The problem ends up being two fold. First, hot air itself simply generates less power than cool air, and you also run the risk of losing even more power if you start getting knock retard which is entirely possible as the weather starts to warm up for the summer.
Last edited by Ramon; 05-31-06 at 11:07 AM.
#24
here's another take on the heat soak issue.
http://www.team-integra.net/sections...?ArticleID=410
"Whether you have a cold air intake, short ram intake, or even a stock intake, the temperature of the air that enters your engine effects your performance. Cold air is beneficial to engine performance because it is denser. This causes more oxygen to enter the cylinders, more fuel will be added and more power as a result. This is why you would want to build a heat shield for your intake.
Even cold air intakes can transfer heat from the engine bay to the air being sucked into the engine. Try driving around for 15-20 minutes, then stop and open your hood and feel your intake tubing. You will notice that it is pretty hot, especially if you have replaced your exhaust manifold and no longer have a heatshield. Now imagine how hot your intake tubing gets while you idle and wait your turn to drag, or AutoX. In these situations where every hundredth of a second counts, its worth a little money and elbow grease to protect your intake from engine bay heat.
Theoretically, for every 11-degree drop in air intake temperature, an engine can increase performance 1%. If you think of that in reverse, for every 11-degree increase in air intake temperature, the engine can lose performance by 1%. That means that just by idling before your run down the track, you could be setting yourself up for losing 2-3whp from heat. The difference is enough, where teams like King Motorsports wrapped their iceman intake to prevent engine bay heat from soaking into the intake temperatures."
http://www.team-integra.net/sections...?ArticleID=410
"Whether you have a cold air intake, short ram intake, or even a stock intake, the temperature of the air that enters your engine effects your performance. Cold air is beneficial to engine performance because it is denser. This causes more oxygen to enter the cylinders, more fuel will be added and more power as a result. This is why you would want to build a heat shield for your intake.
Even cold air intakes can transfer heat from the engine bay to the air being sucked into the engine. Try driving around for 15-20 minutes, then stop and open your hood and feel your intake tubing. You will notice that it is pretty hot, especially if you have replaced your exhaust manifold and no longer have a heatshield. Now imagine how hot your intake tubing gets while you idle and wait your turn to drag, or AutoX. In these situations where every hundredth of a second counts, its worth a little money and elbow grease to protect your intake from engine bay heat.
Theoretically, for every 11-degree drop in air intake temperature, an engine can increase performance 1%. If you think of that in reverse, for every 11-degree increase in air intake temperature, the engine can lose performance by 1%. That means that just by idling before your run down the track, you could be setting yourself up for losing 2-3whp from heat. The difference is enough, where teams like King Motorsports wrapped their iceman intake to prevent engine bay heat from soaking into the intake temperatures."
#25
again touching the intake during idle is a poor indication of how hot it really is during driving. Go right on ahead and put some heat wrap on it, there will be very little gain and aesthetics wont be very nice
#26
Originally Posted by al503
I'm not a big fan of K&N filters. They provide better flow at the expense of filtration, which is OK if you don't plan on keeping your car long term.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm
Too hot to touch actually which brings me to the same concerns I had with the LMS/Fujita intakes, which is, will it actually make power?
Also remember, that part of the equation is not only how aluminum absorbs radiant heat from the engine bay, but also how it releases it (in our case, the concern of heated air entering the motor). I would say there exist little difference of actual power produced, concerning volumetric efficiency or how much air is allowed to freely flow into and through the engine (1), and actual heat (2)contaminating oncoming air over the length of the pipe. As caymandive stated, the amount of time the air spends in the pipe matters, which is relative to its velocity. In an ideal setup, you'd have a perfectly filtered, unhindered amount of cold air flowing into the motor, but with this intake mod (which still uses the stock filter), you give up one for the other, IMO neutralizing the benefits, but still not losing power. I strongly believe other factors, such as elevation and actual ambient temps being drawn into the motor are more of a concern. I haven't gotten a look at the exact mounting of the radiator in the 2IS, but it could also be an issue.
Ramon,
What were the outside temps that day you were driving? Also, if you feel like answering, what city do you live in (so that we can get the elevation)?
As al503 brought up before, I think its easier to see on a turbo engine, where the air is compressed and heated rather quickly after meeting the compressor blade, afterwards providing the intercooler with the duty of cooling the air before it enters the motor. Heat soak definately is easier to see there, but the principle is just the same.
#27
Originally Posted by 4TehNguyen
again touching the intake during idle is a poor indication of how hot it really is during driving. Go right on ahead and put some heat wrap on it, there will be very little gain and aesthetics wont be very nice
You are again missing the point, it does not get that hot while driving becuase the heat has already been trasnferred into the engine and is consistantly being trasnferred into the engine. That is exactly what you want to avoid. That is the whole point of this thread. I don't see why that is so difficult to understand. The heat has to go somewhere, it does not simply go away.
As far as which is better, design versus materials, that all depends. If the Joez was a significant design improvment over OEM, the added heat may have been negated due to its superior design. However, the design is only marginally better, versus the heat which is significantly more.
#28
This is good discussion. Threads like this are always interesting.
So in conclusion the JOEZ intake mod isn't affected much if at all by heat, but by adding some type of radiant heat wrap to it and eventually adding a higher flow filter we will have an optimum setup for the most power thus far without actually having a full true aftermarket CAI. The heat wrap may just be an option for warmer days... readers decide. ya?
So in conclusion the JOEZ intake mod isn't affected much if at all by heat, but by adding some type of radiant heat wrap to it and eventually adding a higher flow filter we will have an optimum setup for the most power thus far without actually having a full true aftermarket CAI. The heat wrap may just be an option for warmer days... readers decide. ya?
#29
Originally Posted by Ramon
You are again missing the point, it does not get that hot while driving becuase the heat has already been trasnferred into the engine and is consistantly being trasnferred into the engine. That is exactly what you want to avoid. That is the whole point of this thread. I don't see why that is so difficult to understand. The heat has to go somewhere, it does not simply go away.
As far as which is better, design versus materials, that all depends. If the Joez was a significant design improvment over OEM, the added heat may have been negated due to its superior design. However, the design is only marginally better, versus the heat which is significantly more.
As far as which is better, design versus materials, that all depends. If the Joez was a significant design improvment over OEM, the added heat may have been negated due to its superior design. However, the design is only marginally better, versus the heat which is significantly more.
#30
Originally Posted by caymandive
This is good discussion. Threads like this are always interesting.
So in conclusion the JOEZ intake mod isn't affected much if at all by heat, but by adding some type of radiant heat wrap to it and eventually adding a higher flow filter we will have an optimum setup for the most power thus far without actually having a full true aftermarket CAI. The heat wrap may just be an option for warmer days... readers decide. ya?
So in conclusion the JOEZ intake mod isn't affected much if at all by heat, but by adding some type of radiant heat wrap to it and eventually adding a higher flow filter we will have an optimum setup for the most power thus far without actually having a full true aftermarket CAI. The heat wrap may just be an option for warmer days... readers decide. ya?
It is in interesting discussion indeed, but how did you come to that conclusion??? There is a gerneral concensous that heat DOES effect performance, the difference being that some people don't think it is enough to outweigh the benifits while others do. There is absolutly no solid evidence yet that it is not effected by heat. I was in denial too when I first started thinking about it, I did not want to think that I just spend money on something that isn't going to help, but it appears that way. My conclusion is the exact opposite.
Shinobi-X, it was about 80 degrees that day.