Finally Happened to Me, THE DREADED CRACKED HEADER!!
01-08-07, 11:09 PM
#32
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Good News.
Cool. I guess mine are on their way as well. Pulled both sides off last week and reinstalled the OEM exhaust manifolds. It was ALOT easier to do this time around. Did not have to drop the subframe. Just removed the steering coupler from the steering shaft to the rack and pinion, for the drivers side. Passenger side came right out.
01-09-07, 11:34 PM
#33
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Good News and Bad News!!!!
As posted above, I went ahead and pulled off both left and right side headers and reinstalled OEM exhaust manifolds. (Did not want one S&S header on the driver side and OEM on the passenger side)
Now for the good news. The new and improved passenger side header came today. Here is a pic just to compare old cracked header and new.
You can see where the crack is on the old one and the added welds on the new one.
Now for the bad news.
Just for the hell of it, I went ahead and inspected the drivers side header too.
To my supprise I saw this.
Now tell me, am I seeing things, or is that a crack on the drivers side header too.
Just another thing to be weary of on the drivers side.
I knew it was a good idea to pull both sides.
Gonna call S&S tomorrow and I will try to send the pics I posted. Might as well send the driver side header for them to fix when I send the passenger side header back to S&S.
Stay tuned............
Now for the good news. The new and improved passenger side header came today. Here is a pic just to compare old cracked header and new.
You can see where the crack is on the old one and the added welds on the new one.
Now for the bad news.
Just for the hell of it, I went ahead and inspected the drivers side header too.
To my supprise I saw this.
Now tell me, am I seeing things, or is that a crack on the drivers side header too.
Just another thing to be weary of on the drivers side.
I knew it was a good idea to pull both sides.
Gonna call S&S tomorrow and I will try to send the pics I posted. Might as well send the driver side header for them to fix when I send the passenger side header back to S&S.
Stay tuned............
01-09-07, 11:56 PM
#35
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
01-10-07, 07:37 AM
#36
Lexus Champion
Guys, this is obviously bad news.
These cracks seem to me to be stress fractures brought on most likely by the torquing of the engine, weight and angle of the exhaust system and the fact that unlike most manufacturers... Lexus does not use flex pipes in their exhaust on these engines. A flex pipe would isolate many of the forces from acting upon the header. Other possibilities include heat soak from the catalysts and water splashing on hot parts. Also, the fact that a heavy catalyst bolts at an angle to each header will add stress with every bump and jiggle the car experiences.
I am assuming that EVERYONE is using the factory brace at the bottom of the cats to help support their weight???
There is not a glaring design flaw in either the header or the construction but rather hard to predict stress loads that are vehicle specific.
As far as cracking of exhaust manifolds goes... this has plagued cars and manufacturers since the invention of exhaust manifolds. One very big difference here is that S&S only built and sold the manifolds. A car manufacturer sells the entire car, makes the profit from the entire car and ususally will only loose a tiny fraction of their profit in warranty repair.
If S&S replaces all the manifolds they have shipped they end up paying more for this effort than they made. I have not talked to Loren about this although I did just email him Will's pictures of the drivers side. Honestly, I am unsure what is the fair response.
I have never met Loren face to face. I have never been to the S&S shop. I can say that everything he has ever told me has been honest and professional. I will also say that S&S is not a big company. It is a small business ran by a small group of people working hard to do a good job. Some may say that S&S did not properly test the headers with OEM like R&D. To that I would remind how this project came to be. I contacted Loren, he said if I could get 20 people to commit to buying a finished product that he would build them with NO up front charges. They were responding to a request and not making an attempt to target the Lexus community. The fact that MANY more than 20 people have bought a set is good news on one hand but also a much bigger liability for warranty issues. We should also remember that $200 of the $600 cost is in the Jet hot coating which makes S&S just enough to cover the cost of having the process done and the handling associated with it. From a profit perspective the Jet Hot is probably a wash for S&S. This leaves $400 for a set total. For small batch run parts with features such as thick flanges, oxygen sensor bungs, and precision merges... this is a very low price and I would be very surprised if they make even $200 profit per set.
So far it seems that Loren and S&S have been providing the best possible response to the problem. I am concerned about the growing nature of this problem and the ability of a small company to just outright replace each part. A large company can absorb a $20-40k loss but to some small companies that can be a killer. I do not know how much S&S can absorb. At some point they may have to offer to repair rather than replace. Obviously repair would be inconvenient especially as a daily driver.
These cracks seem to me to be stress fractures brought on most likely by the torquing of the engine, weight and angle of the exhaust system and the fact that unlike most manufacturers... Lexus does not use flex pipes in their exhaust on these engines. A flex pipe would isolate many of the forces from acting upon the header. Other possibilities include heat soak from the catalysts and water splashing on hot parts. Also, the fact that a heavy catalyst bolts at an angle to each header will add stress with every bump and jiggle the car experiences.
I am assuming that EVERYONE is using the factory brace at the bottom of the cats to help support their weight???
There is not a glaring design flaw in either the header or the construction but rather hard to predict stress loads that are vehicle specific.
As far as cracking of exhaust manifolds goes... this has plagued cars and manufacturers since the invention of exhaust manifolds. One very big difference here is that S&S only built and sold the manifolds. A car manufacturer sells the entire car, makes the profit from the entire car and ususally will only loose a tiny fraction of their profit in warranty repair.
If S&S replaces all the manifolds they have shipped they end up paying more for this effort than they made. I have not talked to Loren about this although I did just email him Will's pictures of the drivers side. Honestly, I am unsure what is the fair response.
I have never met Loren face to face. I have never been to the S&S shop. I can say that everything he has ever told me has been honest and professional. I will also say that S&S is not a big company. It is a small business ran by a small group of people working hard to do a good job. Some may say that S&S did not properly test the headers with OEM like R&D. To that I would remind how this project came to be. I contacted Loren, he said if I could get 20 people to commit to buying a finished product that he would build them with NO up front charges. They were responding to a request and not making an attempt to target the Lexus community. The fact that MANY more than 20 people have bought a set is good news on one hand but also a much bigger liability for warranty issues. We should also remember that $200 of the $600 cost is in the Jet hot coating which makes S&S just enough to cover the cost of having the process done and the handling associated with it. From a profit perspective the Jet Hot is probably a wash for S&S. This leaves $400 for a set total. For small batch run parts with features such as thick flanges, oxygen sensor bungs, and precision merges... this is a very low price and I would be very surprised if they make even $200 profit per set.
So far it seems that Loren and S&S have been providing the best possible response to the problem. I am concerned about the growing nature of this problem and the ability of a small company to just outright replace each part. A large company can absorb a $20-40k loss but to some small companies that can be a killer. I do not know how much S&S can absorb. At some point they may have to offer to repair rather than replace. Obviously repair would be inconvenient especially as a daily driver.
01-10-07, 02:49 PM
#38
Also, to jump on JBrady's train of thought, for some people it might be doable to have a local welder fix the crack and add the little bit of weld between the two pipes.
It's more of a nuisance to fix it locally than a question of $$$ because it's an easy fix.
I had mine locally done in less than an hour, over a guys lunch time. Cost should be less than $50 for anyone able to fix this locally.
Make sure your welder knows that these are stainless steel.
It's more of a nuisance to fix it locally than a question of $$$ because it's an easy fix.
I had mine locally done in less than an hour, over a guys lunch time. Cost should be less than $50 for anyone able to fix this locally.
Make sure your welder knows that these are stainless steel.
Last edited by BA_GS400; 01-11-07 at 01:12 PM.
01-10-07, 03:48 PM
#39
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Also, to jump on JBrady's train of thought, for some people it might be doable to have a local welder fix the crack and add the little bit of weld between the two cracks.
It's more of a nuisance to fix it locally than a question of $$$ because it's an easy fix.
I had mine locally done in less than an hour, over a guys lunch time. Cost should be less than $50 for anyone able to fix this locally.
Make sure your welder knows that these are stainless steel.
It's more of a nuisance to fix it locally than a question of $$$ because it's an easy fix.
I had mine locally done in less than an hour, over a guys lunch time. Cost should be less than $50 for anyone able to fix this locally.
Make sure your welder knows that these are stainless steel.
BA,
What about the jet hot coating after you get it welded locally. Do you recommend recoating the header.
Just weighing my options.
-Will
01-10-07, 05:44 PM
#40
Lexus Champion
Actually they are Jet Hot coated mild steel not stainless although you probably can use stainless welding rod with a mig or tig.
As far as recoating... personal preference. Not cheap. Possibly use one of the high temp paint on coatings for spot coverage.
Here is a quick link discussing header paint including Eastword, POR15 and 20 (15 no, 20 yes) and even good results with simple VHT.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3747
http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/p...keyword=10363Z
http://www.route66supply.com/store/page8.html
As far as recoating... personal preference. Not cheap. Possibly use one of the high temp paint on coatings for spot coverage.
Here is a quick link discussing header paint including Eastword, POR15 and 20 (15 no, 20 yes) and even good results with simple VHT.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3747
http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/p...keyword=10363Z
http://www.route66supply.com/store/page8.html
01-11-07, 01:16 PM
#41
You said it JB, my welder used a stainless welding rod. Looks good enough to be a TIG but I'm not sure which he used - TIG or MIG.
I don't have pictures here at work but I'm pretty sure I had posted them on the site before installing them. Probably in my original thread from early-mid September.
I did NOT get them re-coated, heck, I didn't even re-spray that spot with anything.
I'm DANGEROUS like that!!! I'm ON THE EDGE!!!! 
I don't have pictures here at work but I'm pretty sure I had posted them on the site before installing them. Probably in my original thread from early-mid September.
I did NOT get them re-coated, heck, I didn't even re-spray that spot with anything.
I'm DANGEROUS like that!!! I'm ON THE EDGE!!!!
01-11-07, 01:46 PM
#42
I have not installed mine yet so I am going to contact Loren and see if I can just send out the brand new ones and have him add the welds to both since mine appear to be from the first batch. I will keep you updated on his response, but from the looks of his customer service I do not believe I will have a problem. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, unfortunately it is a huge inconvenience for you members that have installed them or have already found the crack. Good luck to you all.
01-16-07, 07:30 PM
#43
The beast is back!!
I had Dynamic re-install my headers while I was out of town. They took out the other side and had it re-welded for me as well. Props as usual goes out to Son at Dynamic for the great work.
Just a few questions for you guys who have done the re-install.
Was your cracked header severely discolored? Is the jet hot coating doing its job?
Lastly, if the headers crack again even after adding the additional weld, what kind of re-course do we have? I have now spent $1000 on the labor for this project. What are the chances they re-crack?
Overall, I definitely still think it is worth going through the re-install, its just, if they crack again within 6 months, I dont think it is unreasonable to ask for a refund of some sort.
Just a few questions for you guys who have done the re-install.
Was your cracked header severely discolored? Is the jet hot coating doing its job?
Lastly, if the headers crack again even after adding the additional weld, what kind of re-course do we have? I have now spent $1000 on the labor for this project. What are the chances they re-crack?
Overall, I definitely still think it is worth going through the re-install, its just, if they crack again within 6 months, I dont think it is unreasonable to ask for a refund of some sort.
01-16-07, 07:37 PM
#44
Well Loren is definitely taking care of me. I spoke with him today and will be sending out my new headers to him tomorrow. He is going to add the welds on both sides in order to strengthen/brace that area and was very nice about it. He is also recoating them so the new welds are coated. I am covering the shipping out of my pocket just because I feel bad for him. He has been nothing but good to all of us so far and he definitely does not have to. He was kind enough to actually produce something for us V8 owners whereas the other aftermarket companies have turned their backs. Obviously due to our vehicles design, it is going to be a little tougher on the headers without a flex pipe, but Loren is still helping is out. Big props go out to Loren. Now only if he would make us a high flow y-pipe or full exhaust. Be sure when you talk to him you let him know how much we appreciate what he has made for us and how he has stood by his products.
01-16-07, 08:18 PM
#45
Well, I have no time to play phone tag with those guys and I do not know of anyone with the updated headers with some real mileage so I would rather not risk the wait for a replacement that may fail as well.
I checked mine out today and sure enough-a crack that goes around 45% of the tube on the passenger side. I would rather fix it myself as I know it will be done properly. Drivers side is ok so far.
Fortunately the passenger side is very easy to swap out in the SC430. About 30 minutes max to take out and 30 to install. As I am in the middle of installing a high stall torque converter in my SC anyhow, the cats were removed so the headers is no big deal.
The cheapie $150.00 SS Autochrome headers in my Tundra are still going strong with over 40k miles on them-granted they are the second series. Someone should see if they are interested in building some Lexus headers. Especially SC400/LS400 owners as these SS headers are not a direct fit.
I checked mine out today and sure enough-a crack that goes around 45% of the tube on the passenger side. I would rather fix it myself as I know it will be done properly. Drivers side is ok so far.
Fortunately the passenger side is very easy to swap out in the SC430. About 30 minutes max to take out and 30 to install. As I am in the middle of installing a high stall torque converter in my SC anyhow, the cats were removed so the headers is no big deal.
The cheapie $150.00 SS Autochrome headers in my Tundra are still going strong with over 40k miles on them-granted they are the second series. Someone should see if they are interested in building some Lexus headers. Especially SC400/LS400 owners as these SS headers are not a direct fit.