starting my research
01-27-07, 07:04 PM
#1
Driver
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: FL
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
starting my research
I have had my GS400 for a year now. I have since put on a kit, rims, nav, stereo. I want to keep the engine stock, so I always have a reliable car.
I am going to graduate in a year with an EE major from UF, and I need a new project car. I always loved modding cars but I have never done much to an engine besides oil change, cold air intake, spark plugs... I want to get into engine modding (turbos). I could always pay someone to do it, but I want to learn and would like to do it as a hobby.
I love the body style of the 2gen. My plan is to buy a cheap 98 gs300 and this time focus on performance first, then redo the cosmetics. I will also buy an extra used 2jz-ge motor and clean/rebuild with new internals(rods, pistons...). Then drop in the new built engine. Once I have proven that it works, I would like to turbo it, using the SRT stage 3 kit. Now that you all know my plans, I need some guidance.
1. Where did you all learn about how to remove and rebuild and engine?
Any book titles or links would be a great help.
2. Once it is out, where do you send it to get cleaned?
3. Does the factory repair manual give a procedure for taking apart the engine AND how to put it back together with correct timing...?
4. Where did you learn how to use a stand alone or piggy back ecu?
Books or links would be helpful.
5. If I do replace the pistons and rods with forged parts, does the compression always go down? Should I keep the compression stock so the SRT ecu will still work with it?
Once again I know this project will not be cheap or quick. I want to take my time. That is why I am starting my research a year ahead of time. I would like to do almost all of labor myself, with the help of books and your knowledge. I plan on taking many pictures and notes once I get started incase anyone else wants to do this also.
Thanks for the help
I am going to graduate in a year with an EE major from UF, and I need a new project car. I always loved modding cars but I have never done much to an engine besides oil change, cold air intake, spark plugs... I want to get into engine modding (turbos). I could always pay someone to do it, but I want to learn and would like to do it as a hobby.
I love the body style of the 2gen. My plan is to buy a cheap 98 gs300 and this time focus on performance first, then redo the cosmetics. I will also buy an extra used 2jz-ge motor and clean/rebuild with new internals(rods, pistons...). Then drop in the new built engine. Once I have proven that it works, I would like to turbo it, using the SRT stage 3 kit. Now that you all know my plans, I need some guidance.
1. Where did you all learn about how to remove and rebuild and engine?
Any book titles or links would be a great help.
2. Once it is out, where do you send it to get cleaned?
3. Does the factory repair manual give a procedure for taking apart the engine AND how to put it back together with correct timing...?
4. Where did you learn how to use a stand alone or piggy back ecu?
Books or links would be helpful.
5. If I do replace the pistons and rods with forged parts, does the compression always go down? Should I keep the compression stock so the SRT ecu will still work with it?
Once again I know this project will not be cheap or quick. I want to take my time. That is why I am starting my research a year ahead of time. I would like to do almost all of labor myself, with the help of books and your knowledge. I plan on taking many pictures and notes once I get started incase anyone else wants to do this also.
Thanks for the help
01-28-07, 01:42 AM
#3
1. Where did you all learn about how to remove and rebuild and engine? Researching and reading up on performance magazine
2. Once it is out, where do you send it to get cleaned? Any shop that you know will know how to do it. . . Basically people just get the block honed and decked
3. Does the factory repair manual give a procedure for taking apart the engine AND how to put it back together with correct timing...? It should
4. Where did you learn how to use a stand alone or piggy back ecu? Stand alone is alot more complicated but a simple thing like a piggy back is just adding and taking away fuel by increments on the rpm. In order to tune it better you will need to get a Wideband O2 Sensor in order to tell you the A/F ratio. . . You basically learn this from experiance people, forums, or hands on experiance
5. If I do replace the pistons and rods with forged parts, does the compression always go down? Should I keep the compression stock so the SRT ecu will still work with it? If you are going to do F/I it is always better for the motor to have lower compression the average turbo & supercharge cars are usually doing 9:1 compression and if you want to go hardcore you can drop it down to 8:1 because when you do F/I the minute you hit boost it will raise your compression dramatically so you don't want to high to begin with or else you are going to blow your motor
2. Once it is out, where do you send it to get cleaned? Any shop that you know will know how to do it. . . Basically people just get the block honed and decked
3. Does the factory repair manual give a procedure for taking apart the engine AND how to put it back together with correct timing...? It should
4. Where did you learn how to use a stand alone or piggy back ecu? Stand alone is alot more complicated but a simple thing like a piggy back is just adding and taking away fuel by increments on the rpm. In order to tune it better you will need to get a Wideband O2 Sensor in order to tell you the A/F ratio. . . You basically learn this from experiance people, forums, or hands on experiance
5. If I do replace the pistons and rods with forged parts, does the compression always go down? Should I keep the compression stock so the SRT ecu will still work with it? If you are going to do F/I it is always better for the motor to have lower compression the average turbo & supercharge cars are usually doing 9:1 compression and if you want to go hardcore you can drop it down to 8:1 because when you do F/I the minute you hit boost it will raise your compression dramatically so you don't want to high to begin with or else you are going to blow your motor
01-28-07, 01:44 AM
#4
01-28-07, 04:54 PM
#5
1. "Where did you all learn about how to remove and rebuild and engine?
Researching and reading up on performance magazines is a good place to start but is not going to get you very far with the actual process."
If you are rebuilding an engine for the first time and using upgraded components you should really have someone with experience building that particular motor to help you along the way. If you dont know anyone practice building a few cheap motors first, see what they have at the junkyard and take it apart and reassemble it so you can get a feel for what you are doing. It would also be a good idea to take measurements along the way on the junk motor to practice the type of things you will need to know on your nice motor. Learn how to check bearing clearances, valve clearances, ring gap etc...
2. "Once it is out, where do you send it to get cleaned? Any shop that you know will know how to do it. . . Basically people just get the block honed and decked."
If you are going to get your block worked on (honed, decked, bored etc....) you should also get it hot tanked. The machine shop will want the block completely stripped when you bring it to them. You can then request the block to be tanked which will remove all residue, grime etc etc... from all the surface inside and outside the block. It is also a good idea for them to do new freeze plugs while it is out of the car. If you want to be especially thorough with the machining you can also have them line bore the block so your crank has a perfect surface to rest in.
3. "Does the factory repair manual give a procedure for taking apart the engine AND how to put it back together with correct timing...? It should....."
It DOES have all the steps needed to assemble a STOCK motor. If you are going to be upgrading pistons, replacing bearings etc... you should have someone with prior knowledge help you along with measuring tolerances etc... ESPECIALLY if it's your first motor and you have invested a good amount of cash into it.
4. "Where did you learn how to use a stand alone or piggy back ecu? Stand alone is alot more complicated but a simple thing like a piggy back is just adding and taking away fuel by increments on the rpm. In order to tune it better you will need to get a Wideband O2 Sensor in order to tell you the A/F ratio. . . You basically learn this from experiance people, forums, or hands on experiance"
Again, you would be doing yourself a huge favor by having someone who has experience with tuning help you along the way if you are on a standalone. If you are tuning with a piggy back the learning curve is alot less steep but you can still do serious damage if you have no idea what you are doing. If you have very little/no experience you would be much better off taking the car to a dyno facility who is familiar with your particular vehicle and sitting in the car and watching/have explained to you what it going on by the tuner. You will probably have to pay extra to have them explain to you the tuning process but it would be worth it.
5. "If I do replace the pistons and rods with forged parts, does the compression always go down? Should I keep the compression stock so the SRT ecu will still work with it? If you are going to do F/I it is always better for the motor to have lower compression the average turbo & supercharge cars are usually doing 9:1 compression and if you want to go hardcore you can drop it down to 8:1 because when you do F/I the minute you hit boost it will raise your compression dramatically so you don't want to high to begin with or else you are going to blow your motor"
Where to begin.....The compression does not always go dowe when replcacing pistons. You can choose to go for higher OR lower or the same compression as factory. If you were running an NA motor higher compression would give you a power increase, while it would also make more power on a turbo car it would increase the chances for detonation. In order to avoid detonation you would have to increase the octane of fuel being used or retard timing. Most people reduce compression only when turboing a factory non-turbo (NA) motor, this makes it possible to run more boost at the same octane levels than it would on the stock compression ratio. For instance, on an Srt turbo it is only recommended to run approx. 5-7lbs of boost on the stock compression. If you install a thicker headgasket you can lower the compression and run 8-10lbs without compromising reliability. Could you run 8-10lbs on a stock motor? Ultimatly yes and there are people who do it but your chances for engine failure will be that much greater and it increases wear on the rings.
Researching and reading up on performance magazines is a good place to start but is not going to get you very far with the actual process."
If you are rebuilding an engine for the first time and using upgraded components you should really have someone with experience building that particular motor to help you along the way. If you dont know anyone practice building a few cheap motors first, see what they have at the junkyard and take it apart and reassemble it so you can get a feel for what you are doing. It would also be a good idea to take measurements along the way on the junk motor to practice the type of things you will need to know on your nice motor. Learn how to check bearing clearances, valve clearances, ring gap etc...
2. "Once it is out, where do you send it to get cleaned? Any shop that you know will know how to do it. . . Basically people just get the block honed and decked."
If you are going to get your block worked on (honed, decked, bored etc....) you should also get it hot tanked. The machine shop will want the block completely stripped when you bring it to them. You can then request the block to be tanked which will remove all residue, grime etc etc... from all the surface inside and outside the block. It is also a good idea for them to do new freeze plugs while it is out of the car. If you want to be especially thorough with the machining you can also have them line bore the block so your crank has a perfect surface to rest in.
3. "Does the factory repair manual give a procedure for taking apart the engine AND how to put it back together with correct timing...? It should....."
It DOES have all the steps needed to assemble a STOCK motor. If you are going to be upgrading pistons, replacing bearings etc... you should have someone with prior knowledge help you along with measuring tolerances etc... ESPECIALLY if it's your first motor and you have invested a good amount of cash into it.
4. "Where did you learn how to use a stand alone or piggy back ecu? Stand alone is alot more complicated but a simple thing like a piggy back is just adding and taking away fuel by increments on the rpm. In order to tune it better you will need to get a Wideband O2 Sensor in order to tell you the A/F ratio. . . You basically learn this from experiance people, forums, or hands on experiance"
Again, you would be doing yourself a huge favor by having someone who has experience with tuning help you along the way if you are on a standalone. If you are tuning with a piggy back the learning curve is alot less steep but you can still do serious damage if you have no idea what you are doing. If you have very little/no experience you would be much better off taking the car to a dyno facility who is familiar with your particular vehicle and sitting in the car and watching/have explained to you what it going on by the tuner. You will probably have to pay extra to have them explain to you the tuning process but it would be worth it.
5. "If I do replace the pistons and rods with forged parts, does the compression always go down? Should I keep the compression stock so the SRT ecu will still work with it? If you are going to do F/I it is always better for the motor to have lower compression the average turbo & supercharge cars are usually doing 9:1 compression and if you want to go hardcore you can drop it down to 8:1 because when you do F/I the minute you hit boost it will raise your compression dramatically so you don't want to high to begin with or else you are going to blow your motor"
Where to begin.....The compression does not always go dowe when replcacing pistons. You can choose to go for higher OR lower or the same compression as factory. If you were running an NA motor higher compression would give you a power increase, while it would also make more power on a turbo car it would increase the chances for detonation. In order to avoid detonation you would have to increase the octane of fuel being used or retard timing. Most people reduce compression only when turboing a factory non-turbo (NA) motor, this makes it possible to run more boost at the same octane levels than it would on the stock compression ratio. For instance, on an Srt turbo it is only recommended to run approx. 5-7lbs of boost on the stock compression. If you install a thicker headgasket you can lower the compression and run 8-10lbs without compromising reliability. Could you run 8-10lbs on a stock motor? Ultimatly yes and there are people who do it but your chances for engine failure will be that much greater and it increases wear on the rings.
Last edited by macd7919; 01-28-07 at 04:57 PM.
01-31-07, 05:28 PM
#6
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
^^^ What he said is good advice. I'm not saying your choices are bad, so please don't take it that way, but a few questions. Why turbo a GE motor instead of a GTE since you are planning on a swap anyway? Would you be willing to pay someone else to build the motor and watch them the whole time? Have you considered all of the other components that will need to be upgraded when the engine power doubles? or triples? Just some stuff to think about. I would highly recommend the factory service manuals in a paper copy, not the internet printouts. I have a set and they seem to be very good the few times I've looked in them. Also, knowing that you are in Florida, I would recommend contacting Cowboy Beebop. He is very professional and has been helpful with me. He can help you with sourcing/supplying parts and any labor you would need. I think he's on this board, but he's got a nice little project on the supraforums that you can read about too. Good luck and have fun!
02-02-07, 08:29 PM
#7
Driver
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: FL
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow, great info guys. I was thinking about doint the GTE swap at first but after reading some of the posts here I decided not to. If I heard correctly, you might loose VSC or Cruise control, the stock twin turbos won't fit well in the engine bay, VVTI is hard to control and Non VVTI would require custom engine mounts.
I just figured that if I rebuilt the stock GE motor, I would at least have instructions in the repair manual to put everything back together. Everything would still work also. In addition to that SRT has a "bolt on" kit for the GE motor. I am sure you could get everything working properly in the swap also, but I don't think I could do it myself. But perhaps I am confused.
Is it just as hard to control the GE VVTI as the GTE VVTI? Do you really need a stand alone for both?
I just figured that if I rebuilt the stock GE motor, I would at least have instructions in the repair manual to put everything back together. Everything would still work also. In addition to that SRT has a "bolt on" kit for the GE motor. I am sure you could get everything working properly in the swap also, but I don't think I could do it myself. But perhaps I am confused.
Is it just as hard to control the GE VVTI as the GTE VVTI? Do you really need a stand alone for both?
Trending Topics
02-03-07, 10:31 AM
#8
Just buy a new GTE shortblock(bottom end) and bolt it up to the GE head. That's what I'm going to do eventually so I can crank up the boost. The GE isn't bad, but the amount of time and work you spend into building it....you would of been better off buying the GTE off the bat and not wasted any time. The cost would also be pretty close and the power handling will be pretty close. In the end though, the GE block will still lack the oil squirters.
Think of it this way. Used decent condition VVT-i 2JZ-GE = $1000-1500. New rods, pistons, rings, bearings, etc $1000-1500 for domestic brands like Eagle, Pauter, JE, etc. In the end it's going to be $2000-3000 and several hours of labor. Not to mention the fact that you might of spent countless hours and missed something(improper torque spec, or forgot about a bolt) and the whole thing might blow up. On top of that, it still doesn't have the oil squirters.
Now if you get a GTE bottom end, everything is finished and ready to bolt on. It also costs about $2500 for a new one so the price is pretty reasonable. Everything is also torque to spec and all stuff is checked at the factory with their equiptment so chances of catastrophic failure are much slimmer. Since this is only a bottom end swap, you still keep the head and all the functions of your car and engine are still retained.
Either route you take, the engine's power handling will be pretty close. It's just if you want to spend the time to do it. I'll admit it's fun building up the whole engine, but in this case I don't know if it's worth it.
That's what I have to contribute to your "research"
Think of it this way. Used decent condition VVT-i 2JZ-GE = $1000-1500. New rods, pistons, rings, bearings, etc $1000-1500 for domestic brands like Eagle, Pauter, JE, etc. In the end it's going to be $2000-3000 and several hours of labor. Not to mention the fact that you might of spent countless hours and missed something(improper torque spec, or forgot about a bolt) and the whole thing might blow up. On top of that, it still doesn't have the oil squirters.
Now if you get a GTE bottom end, everything is finished and ready to bolt on. It also costs about $2500 for a new one so the price is pretty reasonable. Everything is also torque to spec and all stuff is checked at the factory with their equiptment so chances of catastrophic failure are much slimmer. Since this is only a bottom end swap, you still keep the head and all the functions of your car and engine are still retained.
Either route you take, the engine's power handling will be pretty close. It's just if you want to spend the time to do it. I'll admit it's fun building up the whole engine, but in this case I don't know if it's worth it.
That's what I have to contribute to your "research"
02-03-07, 09:19 PM
#9
Driver
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NE
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jeff, are you honestly comparing a completely built bottom end to that of a stock gte motor. the gte bottom end is definetly strong from the factory, but no where near what a good built bottom end is going to be. also, as far as the oil squirters go, they really arent needed. toyota put them there because the supra was more meant for sustained high speed driving, not for day to day driving around town. i'm pretty sure owali isnt looking to go track racing with his gs, where the motor would be at 100% throttle damn near the entire time. IMO oil squirters are definetly not the item i would be basing an entire build on.
02-03-07, 10:10 PM
#10
jeff, are you honestly comparing a completely built bottom end to that of a stock gte motor. the gte bottom end is definetly strong from the factory, but no where near what a good built bottom end is going to be. also, as far as the oil squirters go, they really arent needed. toyota put them there because the supra was more meant for sustained high speed driving, not for day to day driving around town. i'm pretty sure owali isnt looking to go track racing with his gs, where the motor would be at 100% throttle damn near the entire time. IMO oil squirters are definetly not the item i would be basing an entire build on.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
lex-matt
IS - 1st Gen (2001-2005)
6
01-08-05 03:01 PM