Which Intake has the most HP gain?
07-16-08, 06:11 PM
#31
Let's clear up a couple of misconceptions... And let me preface the following by saying that I'm putting FACTS in this post - as in, "I've seen it with my own eyes." Not "I think," or "I heard..."
I guess you've never heard of companies like Research in Motion or Microsoft who have ripped off designs from little guys and sold them to the world for billions of dollars... TRD didn't design OR manufacture ANY of the F-Sport products they are marketing. The didn't "design" or "R&D" the F-Sport Brake Kit or Springs any further than what was done at StopTech and Eibach's facilities. I'm not saying that they "copied" Joe's design, because I don't think they did. But this DOES happen on a regular basis.
This is VERY true. You'd be surprised to hear who reads these boards.
I'm not arguing for or against the theory that TRD copied Joe's design, but this is a laughable statement. If you don't think "R&D" includes an examination of the competitor's design (especially in the automotive aftermarket), you're sorely mistaken. You are correct, however, when you said that you won't find Joe's intake at the "TRD R&D facility in Japan" because it's not in Japan - it's right here in Sunny SoCal. Costa Mesa, to be exact. You see, F-Sport is a creation of TRD USA. NOT Lexus Japan, or Lexus for that matter.
Wrong. The F-Sport intake tube is NOT made in Japan. It's made right here in the USA - again, by a company right here in Southern California to be exact.
Have you ever noticed how many aftermarket intakes (or aftermarket products in general) have a "patent pending" stamp on them? That's because the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office requires:
The simple answer is that most aftermarket intakes are so similar in design that the patent office will not grant a patent for them. It's like trying to patent an eraser on a pencil. The patent office views them all as like products.
Having said all this, this is yet another intake thread that has gotten WAY off topic (how did Joe Z's exhaust wind up in here???), with people making snide and/or rude remarks toward another. I'm going to keep this thread open provided it goes back to the original topic of discussion - "Which intake has the most horsepower gain." Any further posts deviating from this line of discussion will be deleted, and result in this thread being closed.
Javier
I LOL at this. TRD has a multi-million dollar budget to design performance products for the IS. They decide to screw it and copy the design of (from what I understand) a single person who sells his intake through one dealership on CL (No offense JoeZ). Plus, intakes have a general design. I am sure JoeZ used the stock Lexus IS intake as a base and made improvements off of that.
. As noted below, it is a sacrilege to do this is in the R&D world because of the liability.
Even if the subject matter sought to be patented is not exactly shown by the prior art, and involves one or more differences over the most nearly similar thing already known, a patent may still be refused if the differences would be obvious. The subject matter sought to be patented must be sufficiently different from what has been used or described before that it may be said to be nonobvious to a person having ordinary skill in the area of technology related to the invention. For example, the substitution of one color for another, or changes in size, are ordinarily not patentable.
Having said all this, this is yet another intake thread that has gotten WAY off topic (how did Joe Z's exhaust wind up in here???), with people making snide and/or rude remarks toward another. I'm going to keep this thread open provided it goes back to the original topic of discussion - "Which intake has the most horsepower gain." Any further posts deviating from this line of discussion will be deleted, and result in this thread being closed.
Javier
07-16-08, 07:46 PM
#32
Lexus Fanatic
For the record, I don't own a single Joe Z part. My car is bone stock. I just recognize quality and value.
I generally don't buy after market parts for my car unless they offer a significant improvement for the cost.
My first mod will be the F sport sway bars. I doubt I'll be doing much else anytime soon because almost nothing else is worth doing on this car to my way of thinking.
I think Joe Z makes an -outstanding- quality exhaust, with a great design. Comparing it to the other systems that cost similar amounts it's certainly a great purchase, but that's not my basis for comparison. I don't think 8-10 hp is worth $1500 so it's not something I'm ever going to buy.
I have no interest whatsoever in making my car louder, otherwise the cost might be easier to justify as the system also sounds great.
I have no interest in bodykits or anything else cosmetic except, possibly, wheels. Even then I'd be doing it both for a nice looking wheel -and- to lose rotating mass. My problem there is I really like 5-spoke wheels and have yet to see pics of somebody with a 2IS with nice clean 5-spoke wheel that doesn't have those, I dunno what they are called, "bolts" I guess all around the rim and I hate those bolts that seem to be the style on rims now.
As for an intake, I haven't bought one at all because none of them do much. If I was going to buy one, it'd be the Joe Z, because even though you're looking at 5 hp tops from ANY intake, Joes is of excellent quality, and the lowest cost, while keeping the colder design of the stock box. It's only 5 hp, but for $110 that's not bad. Since I plan to stop taking my car to Lexus after 10k (ie once I have to pay for the service) I'll likely seriously consider putting his pipe on at that time.
The only advantages the F-sport offer over this are:
A carb number, which doesn't matter since I'm not in CA.
More noise. Which is of no appeal to me. And if it was I'd just dremmel a second hole in the box and get the same result while still saving about $200.
My previous car made over 500 hp, naturally aspirated. I picked out (and installed most of) the mods myself after a lot of thought and research, and put nothing on the car that wasn't excellent bang/buck, and usually the best you could get. Best isn't always the most expensive.
I understand some folks want their cars a lot louder and flashier, and they're welcome to make them that way. Just isn't my thing.
I generally don't buy after market parts for my car unless they offer a significant improvement for the cost.
My first mod will be the F sport sway bars. I doubt I'll be doing much else anytime soon because almost nothing else is worth doing on this car to my way of thinking.
I think Joe Z makes an -outstanding- quality exhaust, with a great design. Comparing it to the other systems that cost similar amounts it's certainly a great purchase, but that's not my basis for comparison. I don't think 8-10 hp is worth $1500 so it's not something I'm ever going to buy.
I have no interest whatsoever in making my car louder, otherwise the cost might be easier to justify as the system also sounds great.
I have no interest in bodykits or anything else cosmetic except, possibly, wheels. Even then I'd be doing it both for a nice looking wheel -and- to lose rotating mass. My problem there is I really like 5-spoke wheels and have yet to see pics of somebody with a 2IS with nice clean 5-spoke wheel that doesn't have those, I dunno what they are called, "bolts" I guess all around the rim and I hate those bolts that seem to be the style on rims now.
As for an intake, I haven't bought one at all because none of them do much. If I was going to buy one, it'd be the Joe Z, because even though you're looking at 5 hp tops from ANY intake, Joes is of excellent quality, and the lowest cost, while keeping the colder design of the stock box. It's only 5 hp, but for $110 that's not bad. Since I plan to stop taking my car to Lexus after 10k (ie once I have to pay for the service) I'll likely seriously consider putting his pipe on at that time.
The only advantages the F-sport offer over this are:
A carb number, which doesn't matter since I'm not in CA.
More noise. Which is of no appeal to me. And if it was I'd just dremmel a second hole in the box and get the same result while still saving about $200.
My previous car made over 500 hp, naturally aspirated. I picked out (and installed most of) the mods myself after a lot of thought and research, and put nothing on the car that wasn't excellent bang/buck, and usually the best you could get. Best isn't always the most expensive.
I understand some folks want their cars a lot louder and flashier, and they're welcome to make them that way. Just isn't my thing.
07-16-08, 08:01 PM
#33
Lexus Champion
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I just want to say I have respect for Javy and have never had a problem with him. Therefore I will not discuss this issue in this thread any longer. I PMed him my reply. If you would like to see it or continue discussing PM me.
On topic:
Has anyone dynoed the F-Sport and Joe Z intake at the same time (under similar conditions)?
On topic:
Has anyone dynoed the F-Sport and Joe Z intake at the same time (under similar conditions)?
07-16-08, 09:51 PM
#35
I just want to say I have respect for Javy and have never had a problem with him. Therefore I will not discuss this issue in this thread any longer. I PMed him my reply. If you would like to see it or continue discussing PM me.
On topic:
Has anyone dynoed the F-Sport and Joe Z intake at the same time (under similar conditions)?
On topic:
Has anyone dynoed the F-Sport and Joe Z intake at the same time (under similar conditions)?
07-16-08, 10:06 PM
#36
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that was what i was looking for, the venturi effect. but bernoulli states that "the internal pressure of a fluid decreases as its velocity increases" and venturi effect is applied to incompressible fluids stating . in theory there could be a slow down as the airflow is still compressible through the pipe. and if so it will slow down to a certain point until it is no longer compressible. although as stated, the 3"? opening is more than enough to supply airflow. i would assume joe's pipe accomplishes smoother airflow more than anything else to increase power.
also as stated spending $1500 on 8-10hp and $110 on 5hp is optimum conditions. i would assume engine heat being relatively consistent and exhaust flow to be consistent at such heats, the 8-10hp gain would be there almost all the time where as the 5hp gain through intake would be much more variant with the vehicle speed and overall temperature and humidity of the open air thus rendering the 5hp useless if humidy and temperature is too high. either way i'm going to get the exhaust the moment it's available for the awd
and yes i am an engineering student ;p
also as stated spending $1500 on 8-10hp and $110 on 5hp is optimum conditions. i would assume engine heat being relatively consistent and exhaust flow to be consistent at such heats, the 8-10hp gain would be there almost all the time where as the 5hp gain through intake would be much more variant with the vehicle speed and overall temperature and humidity of the open air thus rendering the 5hp useless if humidy and temperature is too high. either way i'm going to get the exhaust the moment it's available for the awd
and yes i am an engineering student ;p
07-16-08, 10:39 PM
#37
Lexus Fanatic
the K&N filter for the gs350(same motor as the IS350) shows an 18.1hp boost over stock and they have the dyno graph to prove it. Thats tempting to me. I remeber with some old intakes they will say 12hp with no dyno, then when you dyno the car you gain maybe 2-3 hp. I still dig the noise it makes. It makes the car sound like it actaully has 300+ hp
07-17-08, 07:43 AM
#38
Seriously dude...it's a tube. I'm pretty sure I don't need a degree in astrophysics to understand it.
A slew of knowledgeable folks have done extensive testing on a lot of intakes in here. If you're claiming you can't possibly understand any aftermarket part without owning it that's just about as silly as the people who insist they "feel" their short ram intake must have added a bunch of power to their car, when we know for a fact it didn't. (and I know it without having to own whatever short ram they overpaid for too, so bonus)
(or as silly as believing the dyno chart a manufacturer provides for their product :P)
A slew of knowledgeable folks have done extensive testing on a lot of intakes in here. If you're claiming you can't possibly understand any aftermarket part without owning it that's just about as silly as the people who insist they "feel" their short ram intake must have added a bunch of power to their car, when we know for a fact it didn't. (and I know it without having to own whatever short ram they overpaid for too, so bonus)
(or as silly as believing the dyno chart a manufacturer provides for their product :P)
07-17-08, 07:02 PM
#40
Lexus Fanatic
Seriously dude...it's a tube. I'm pretty sure I don't need a degree in astrophysics to understand it.
A slew of knowledgeable folks have done extensive testing on a lot of intakes in here. If you're claiming you can't possibly understand any aftermarket part without owning it that's just about as silly as the people who insist they "feel" their short ram intake must have added a bunch of power to their car, when we know for a fact it didn't. (and I know it without having to own whatever short ram they overpaid for too, so bonus)
(or as silly as believing the dyno chart a manufacturer provides for their product :P)
A slew of knowledgeable folks have done extensive testing on a lot of intakes in here. If you're claiming you can't possibly understand any aftermarket part without owning it that's just about as silly as the people who insist they "feel" their short ram intake must have added a bunch of power to their car, when we know for a fact it didn't. (and I know it without having to own whatever short ram they overpaid for too, so bonus)
(or as silly as believing the dyno chart a manufacturer provides for their product :P)
P.S. Utilizing the word DUDE in speech is not professional.
07-17-08, 07:09 PM
#41
Lexus Fanatic
07-18-08, 02:38 PM
#42
I always ascertain or base my reason/rational on something my experience allows me to. So now the JoeZ intake is just a tube when you swore by it being the best thing since sliced bread? I cannot make a statement on this product being good or bad because I have never witnessed one in action. Therefore, I do not light up the CL threads with unwarranted remarks. On a odd note, one of my graduate thesis was written in astrophysics, but I do not claim to be a know-it-all because I always learn knew things daily and become more knowledgeable from others.
P.S. Utilizing the word DUDE in speech is not professional.
P.S. Utilizing the word DUDE in speech is not professional.
However, I said the Joe Z was the best intake choice for performance. Because it is. It has the lowest cost with results that are equal to, or better than, the other commercial intakes. If you have a better definition of best, in the context of this thread, please post it.
It doesn't need to be any more than a tube to do that.
The fact that most intakes are something else is -why- they're worse.
Most of them are more expensive with less desirable results (often sucking in hot air).
The F-sport is 'just' more expensive, for the same results (performance wise at least... it's certainly louder)
Certainly if you're more concerned with noise than actual benefit the Joe Z is not for you, but that's not the topic of the thread last I checked.
If you're more concerned with which intake makes the best power, ideally for the least cost, that'd be the Joe Z.
If you need a CARB number (folks in CA) then the F-sport might be worth the extra ~200 for the same gains... Otherwise, it adds nothing but extra sound. (well, extra 150 in fairness, the reusable filter would be extra cost with the Joe Z)
None of the above knowledge requires owning either product though. Or an advanced science degree.
Others whose opinions I trust have demonstrated even the stock intake box produces more air than the engine can make use of, so we know "more" air is of no benefit here.
Therefore any intake with a "larger" cone design doesn't bring anything to the table for performance in that regard.
We also know from basic science that cold air makes more power than hot air, so any intake element open to under-hood air will be less desirable than one that retains the colder air from the stock box.
We know from dynos from numerous folks, as well as (more importantly in the case of intakes) track results from various folks that most intakes add nothing or very little in terms of power to these cars.
The Joe Z has the lowest cost of all the commercial intakes. Further based on the design notes above it's going to be preferable to the hot air designs.
You can certainly debate if it adds 1 hp, 3 hp, or 5 hp. You can certainly debate where in the power band (or during how much of it) it adds that power. Those numbers are going to be small enough that it'll be awfully hard to come up with a certain answer. But none of that was the question here.
The question was:
"What intake out there has the most HP gain on a IS350?"
That's from the original post.
The conclusions we can draw from all the above and all the other reliable info we have is that the Joe Z adds as much as any of them, likely more under at least heatsoak conditions than the open element ones, and it cost the least.
Therefore that would be what I'd recommend to the original poster.
And all of the above can be easily concluded without owning every single possible intake for the car.
I'm not sure why you seem to think it does require that.
Do you have a better answer, or just more sniping?
07-18-08, 02:50 PM
#43
I didn't realize I was being paid to post here (which would require my being "professional")...lemme know when to expect my check!
However, I said the Joe Z was the best intake choice for performance. Because it is. It has the lowest cost with results that are equal to, or better than, the other commercial intakes. If you have a better definition of best, in the context of this thread, please post it.
It doesn't need to be any more than a tube to do that.
The fact that most intakes are something else is -why- they're worse.
Most of them are more expensive with less desirable results (often sucking in hot air).
The F-sport is 'just' more expensive, for the same results (performance wise at least... it's certainly louder)
Certainly if you're more concerned with noise than actual benefit the Joe Z is not for you, but that's not the topic of the thread last I checked.
If you're more concerned with which intake makes the best power, ideally for the least cost, that'd be the Joe Z.
If you need a CARB number (folks in CA) then the F-sport might be worth the extra ~200 for the same gains... Otherwise, it adds nothing but extra sound. (well, extra 150 in fairness, the reusable filter would be extra cost with the Joe Z)
None of the above knowledge requires owning either product though. Or an advanced science degree.
Others whose opinions I trust have demonstrated even the stock intake box produces more air than the engine can make use of, so we know "more" air is of no benefit here.
Therefore any intake with a "larger" cone design doesn't bring anything to the table for performance in that regard.
We also know from basic science that cold air makes more power than hot air, so any intake element open to under-hood air will be less desirable than one that retains the colder air from the stock box.
We know from dynos from numerous folks, as well as (more importantly in the case of intakes) track results from various folks that most intakes add nothing or very little in terms of power to these cars.
The Joe Z has the lowest cost of all the commercial intakes. Further based on the design notes above it's going to be preferable to the hot air designs.
You can certainly debate if it adds 1 hp, 3 hp, or 5 hp. You can certainly debate where in the power band (or during how much of it) it adds that power. Those numbers are going to be small enough that it'll be awfully hard to come up with a certain answer. But none of that was the question here.
The question was:
"What intake out there has the most HP gain on a IS350?"
That's from the original post.
The conclusions we can draw from all the above and all the other reliable info we have is that the Joe Z adds as much as any of them, likely more under at least heatsoak conditions than the open element ones, and it cost the least.
Therefore that would be what I'd recommend to the original poster.
And all of the above can be easily concluded without owning every single possible intake for the car.
I'm not sure why you seem to think it does require that.
Do you have a better answer, or just more sniping?
However, I said the Joe Z was the best intake choice for performance. Because it is. It has the lowest cost with results that are equal to, or better than, the other commercial intakes. If you have a better definition of best, in the context of this thread, please post it.
It doesn't need to be any more than a tube to do that.
The fact that most intakes are something else is -why- they're worse.
Most of them are more expensive with less desirable results (often sucking in hot air).
The F-sport is 'just' more expensive, for the same results (performance wise at least... it's certainly louder)
Certainly if you're more concerned with noise than actual benefit the Joe Z is not for you, but that's not the topic of the thread last I checked.
If you're more concerned with which intake makes the best power, ideally for the least cost, that'd be the Joe Z.
If you need a CARB number (folks in CA) then the F-sport might be worth the extra ~200 for the same gains... Otherwise, it adds nothing but extra sound. (well, extra 150 in fairness, the reusable filter would be extra cost with the Joe Z)
None of the above knowledge requires owning either product though. Or an advanced science degree.
Others whose opinions I trust have demonstrated even the stock intake box produces more air than the engine can make use of, so we know "more" air is of no benefit here.
Therefore any intake with a "larger" cone design doesn't bring anything to the table for performance in that regard.
We also know from basic science that cold air makes more power than hot air, so any intake element open to under-hood air will be less desirable than one that retains the colder air from the stock box.
We know from dynos from numerous folks, as well as (more importantly in the case of intakes) track results from various folks that most intakes add nothing or very little in terms of power to these cars.
The Joe Z has the lowest cost of all the commercial intakes. Further based on the design notes above it's going to be preferable to the hot air designs.
You can certainly debate if it adds 1 hp, 3 hp, or 5 hp. You can certainly debate where in the power band (or during how much of it) it adds that power. Those numbers are going to be small enough that it'll be awfully hard to come up with a certain answer. But none of that was the question here.
The question was:
"What intake out there has the most HP gain on a IS350?"
That's from the original post.
The conclusions we can draw from all the above and all the other reliable info we have is that the Joe Z adds as much as any of them, likely more under at least heatsoak conditions than the open element ones, and it cost the least.
Therefore that would be what I'd recommend to the original poster.
And all of the above can be easily concluded without owning every single possible intake for the car.
I'm not sure why you seem to think it does require that.
Do you have a better answer, or just more sniping?
where does or did it ask for that. If you are going to point out something someone else posted that wasnt asked then maybe you should follow what you preach! The question was "what intake offers the "most" HP gains"....as you posted above there are none to very marginal improvements at ALL. It doesnt matter if its 500$ or 50$ its a waste of money for HP gains. Slap any of them on your car and I will prove it on the streets to you! If you want it for Sound then you can warrant what you like the most.
Just so you can see the OP's post its below for you!
07-19-08, 09:25 PM
#44
Yes, and I explained that while gains are marginal, the Joe Z will offer a gain that is as good, or better, than anything else, and also has the lowest cost to boot. Anything else will offer some combination of more money and the same or fewer gains in power. The F-sport is further mentioned as an option where gains will be the same as the Joe Z, for a higher cost, but you gain an EO number which might matter in you live in CA.
How exactly is that not answering the question?
How exactly is that not answering the question?
07-21-08, 01:19 PM
#45
Lexus Fanatic
Wrong word choice:
Sniping: The act of pasting up outdoor posters over billboards or on empty structures, walls, and traffic poles, often without permission. Or, a bidder that places their bid in the last minutes or seconds of an auction.
Really does not fall into place in this thread. Better luck next time.