Turbo
09-07-08, 11:45 PM
#91
Compressed oxygen = turbo charged
It does not mean it runs on actual compressed oxigen. all internal cumbustion engines have to compress oxygen before firing...
09-08-08, 07:15 AM
#92
Though googling around every report on the car seems to be a copy of the exact same wording, and there's no dyno numbers, so it's possible it's just ignorant language from a poorly written press release on a car that's not even running correctly yet....
Still, the essential points, that the engine is a different motor than the ISx50 to start with, then they modded it with custom internals on top of that, then added a custom TT kit on top of that, remain.
09-17-08, 03:21 PM
#93
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Fakie..
Although this was a spook...
Kurtz you gotta like chill out.
You come across as a not so nice person. You really gotta take that tone when you respond to ppl?
Kinda scares ppl away.
Kurtz you gotta like chill out.
You come across as a not so nice person. You really gotta take that tone when you respond to ppl?
Kinda scares ppl away.
09-18-08, 07:44 AM
#94
There's considerable, very practical, reasons that turboing these cars doesn't make a lot of sense for anything but a 1-off show car where they probably spent as much as the car originally cost to do it.
Now, if the motors had lower compression, or they were cheap to source and rebuild with easily available aftermarket parts, and there were reasonable engine management choices, that might change... but none of those things are the case.
09-18-08, 07:59 AM
#96
How so?
There's considerable, very practical, reasons that turboing these cars doesn't make a lot of sense for anything but a 1-off show car where they probably spent as much as the car originally cost to do it.
Now, if the motors had lower compression, or they were cheap to source and rebuild with easily available aftermarket parts, and there were reasonable engine management choices, that might change... but none of those things are the case.
There's considerable, very practical, reasons that turboing these cars doesn't make a lot of sense for anything but a 1-off show car where they probably spent as much as the car originally cost to do it.
Now, if the motors had lower compression, or they were cheap to source and rebuild with easily available aftermarket parts, and there were reasonable engine management choices, that might change... but none of those things are the case.
I see what you are saying but two good things can come from all of this. hopefully,What these guys are doing is creating different a stages of tunning, but what hopefully they will have is a low boost kit that can produce 450 hP to the wheels or even 500 to the wheel (Instead of the 600hp that they are claiming), with a lower budget and without having to open up the engine. There are plenty of engine that are high compresion and make 80hp to 100hp on 7-9 PSI which would be awsome and is nothing for a 5.0L engine . I just think that this is their most extreme package they will offer... If they could create a low boost kit that makes some reasonable power at a desent price i think it would be very interesting option fo those people wanting more power.. I for one, i'm on the boost wagon
Alf
Last edited by anajri; 09-18-08 at 08:12 AM.
09-18-08, 11:53 AM
#98
Kurtz
I see what you are saying but two good things can come from all of this. hopefully,What these guys are doing is creating different a stages of tunning, but what hopefully they will have is a low boost kit that can produce 450 hP to the wheels or even 500 to the wheel (Instead of the 600hp that they are claiming), with a lower budget and without having to open up the engine. There are plenty of engine that are high compresion and make 80hp to 100hp on 7-9 PSI which would be awsome and is nothing for a 5.0L engine . I just think that this is their most extreme package they will offer... If they could create a low boost kit that makes some reasonable power at a desent price i think it would be very interesting option fo those people wanting more power.. I for one, i'm on the boost wagon
Alf
I see what you are saying but two good things can come from all of this. hopefully,What these guys are doing is creating different a stages of tunning, but what hopefully they will have is a low boost kit that can produce 450 hP to the wheels or even 500 to the wheel (Instead of the 600hp that they are claiming), with a lower budget and without having to open up the engine. There are plenty of engine that are high compresion and make 80hp to 100hp on 7-9 PSI which would be awsome and is nothing for a 5.0L engine . I just think that this is their most extreme package they will offer... If they could create a low boost kit that makes some reasonable power at a desent price i think it would be very interesting option fo those people wanting more power.. I for one, i'm on the boost wagon
Alf
I would say 9 lbs of boost on a 12:1 compression gasoline engine isn't nothing, regardless of displacement.
Heck, on the 3.5L in the IS350 with a similar CR even when a company has full access to tune the factory ECU (TOMs in Japan) they still can't get even 6 lbs of boost to run safely... they top out at 5.8, and they require 100 octane fuel for even that. Adding some displacement with the same CR isn't going to magically allow 50% more boost on pump gas.
I agree a lot of people would be interested in a cheap kit that ran 7-9 lbs of boost. But a mega-expensive show project for the IS-F with a custom-built motor with custom internals isn't that... and it's honestly not even much of a step toward it, because maybe getting measurements made for mounting hardware and some pipes.
Several major tuning companies have tried FI kits on the 2IS already. LMS sold like 4 of them because the performance for cost sucked and stopped selling em. TOMs I think still sells theirs but has even worse performance for cost and only works on JDM cars.
It's not that nobody knows how to build an FI kit and if only someone would try we'd all have one. It's that there's serious technical and physical limitations to what you can do with the stock motors in question.
Now, the IS-F _is_ a better candidate than the other 2IS vehicles because the stock internals are beefier (the cylinder liners for example)- and it has the advantage of being a significantly more expensive car so bang-for-buck is a little easier math there. But on the other hand there'll be a lot fewer made than other 2ISes and a smaller target market doesn't usually mean cheap.
09-18-08, 12:24 PM
#99
I would say 9 lbs of boost on a 12:1 compression gasoline engine isn't nothing, regardless of displacement.
Heck, on the 3.5L in the IS350 with a similar CR even when a company has full access to tune the factory ECU (TOMs in Japan) they still can't get even 6 lbs of boost to run safely... they top out at 5.8, and they require 100 octane fuel for even that. Adding some displacement with the same CR isn't going to magically allow 50% more boost on pump gas.
I agree a lot of people would be interested in a cheap kit that ran 7-9 lbs of boost. But a mega-expensive show project for the IS-F with a custom-built motor with custom internals isn't that... and it's honestly not even much of a step toward it, because maybe getting measurements made for mounting hardware and some pipes.
Several major tuning companies have tried FI kits on the 2IS already. LMS sold like 4 of them because the performance for cost sucked and stopped selling em. TOMs I think still sells theirs but has even worse performance for cost and only works on JDM cars.
It's not that nobody knows how to build an FI kit and if only someone would try we'd all have one. It's that there's serious technical and physical limitations to what you can do with the stock motors in question.
Now, the IS-F _is_ a better candidate than the other 2IS vehicles because the stock internals are beefier (the cylinder liners for example)- and it has the advantage of being a significantly more expensive car so bang-for-buck is a little easier math there. But on the other hand there'll be a lot fewer made than other 2ISes and a smaller target market doesn't usually mean cheap.
Heck, on the 3.5L in the IS350 with a similar CR even when a company has full access to tune the factory ECU (TOMs in Japan) they still can't get even 6 lbs of boost to run safely... they top out at 5.8, and they require 100 octane fuel for even that. Adding some displacement with the same CR isn't going to magically allow 50% more boost on pump gas.
I agree a lot of people would be interested in a cheap kit that ran 7-9 lbs of boost. But a mega-expensive show project for the IS-F with a custom-built motor with custom internals isn't that... and it's honestly not even much of a step toward it, because maybe getting measurements made for mounting hardware and some pipes.
Several major tuning companies have tried FI kits on the 2IS already. LMS sold like 4 of them because the performance for cost sucked and stopped selling em. TOMs I think still sells theirs but has even worse performance for cost and only works on JDM cars.
It's not that nobody knows how to build an FI kit and if only someone would try we'd all have one. It's that there's serious technical and physical limitations to what you can do with the stock motors in question.
Now, the IS-F _is_ a better candidate than the other 2IS vehicles because the stock internals are beefier (the cylinder liners for example)- and it has the advantage of being a significantly more expensive car so bang-for-buck is a little easier math there. But on the other hand there'll be a lot fewer made than other 2ISes and a smaller target market doesn't usually mean cheap.
There is a reason why there are storlker kit or turbo kits for M3 , merc, Lambos, vipers, corvetts Audis. Even ferraris have tunners with supercharger kits.. there is always a market for all these things. and well you even have people starting to tune the Buggatti veyron. if you have a good products you can sell it it just depends who you market it too and this is why you also have people spending over US$ 25,000 on a Titan stocker kit Engine for toyota supras that are 14 years old.
If they build it they will come..
kurtz dont get me wrong I'm not arguing against you I'm just a guy who loves to set up cars and loves to race.. thats what i love so come one five axis and artisan unleash hell... and sign me up for what ever you make
jejejjeje
Last edited by anajri; 09-18-08 at 12:30 PM.
09-18-08, 03:22 PM
#100
Yes, I know about compresion but there are thing you can do to lower compresion without changing pistons. There was a turbo kit for the IS300 that put a thicker head gasket so you could run a few more PSI.. ( i know they are not the sema engine but it a point i'm trying to make) and I dont think that tom's has full access to open the ECU, they can not pull timing, and things like this. Plus, let be honest none of these companies would exist if they thought like you... (no disrespect intended here just in case...)
There is a reason why there are storlker kit or turbo kits for M3 , merc, Lambos, vipers, corvetts Audis. Even ferraris have tunners with supercharger kits.. there is always a market for all these things. and well you even have people starting to tune the Buggatti veyron. if you have a good products you can sell it it just depends who you market it too and this is why you also have people spending over US$ 25,000 on a Titan stocker kit Engine for toyota supras that are 14 years old.
If they build it they will come..
kurtz dont get me wrong I'm not arguing against you I'm just a guy who loves to set up cars and loves to race.. thats what i love so come one five axis and artisan unleash hell... and sign me up for what ever you make
jejejjeje
There is a reason why there are storlker kit or turbo kits for M3 , merc, Lambos, vipers, corvetts Audis. Even ferraris have tunners with supercharger kits.. there is always a market for all these things. and well you even have people starting to tune the Buggatti veyron. if you have a good products you can sell it it just depends who you market it too and this is why you also have people spending over US$ 25,000 on a Titan stocker kit Engine for toyota supras that are 14 years old.
If they build it they will come..
kurtz dont get me wrong I'm not arguing against you I'm just a guy who loves to set up cars and loves to race.. thats what i love so come one five axis and artisan unleash hell... and sign me up for what ever you make
jejejjeje
Just so you don't think I'm anti-performance or something.... my last car made over 500 horsepower, naturally aspirated. I did much of the work myself, and virtually all the "design" of the mods myself as far as what to use. I've owned turbochargers and superchargers. Hell, one of my wifes cars is a turbo supra with a built engine.
What that has done is given me a decent appreciate for what is really worth doing and what isn't, mod-wise.
Trying to cram forced induction onto a motor that has a lot of reasons NOT to use it isn't, IMHO, really worth doing.
A head gasket swap isn't exactly a half-hour job for example, and you'll need custom gaskets at this point since there's no market for thicker 2IS head gaskets (nor is there really likely to be).
TOMs can change fuel maps and timing by the way, otherwise they wouldn't be able to let the car make use of 100 octane fuel to run the extra 0.8 lbs of boost over the LMS unit (5.8 on 100 octane vs. 5 on 93)
Let me give you a good lexus parallel.
Try and find some info on ways to add good power, na, to an SC300.
You won't find much. Because it doesn't make much sense to do it.
For the cost of adding maybe 30-40 hp with electric fans, intake, exhaust, headers, etc.... you could just as easily have swapped a 1JZ or 2JZ motor in there and added over 100 hp (more with a boost controller).
So again, look at the 2IS cars and the market.
Somewhere around 80% of them are 250s. The best, cheapest, most reliable option for them is to trade for a 350. You're simply NOT going to produce a commercially viable FI kit for that car that is cheaper than that with better power gains. At best you -might- find a way to make it cheap enough to add 1/3-1/2 the power for 100% of the cost. Not a great business model.
Why would you spend $6000 on an FI kit to add 40 horsepower to a 250 when you can spend $4000 to add 100 horsepower by getting a 350 instead?
I'm sure there's a few folks who'll do it just to be different, but not enough to support a business.
Probably 15% or better of what is left is IS350s. Now, there's some more room here since the price gap from 350->ISF is much larger than 250->350.
But you're already in a fairly small market. And it's one where the one company that already tried, LMS, got out of the business because they had no takers. Physics is physics so there's not going to be some magical breakthrough that suddenly lets you build a $2000 kit that adds 100 hp to the 2GR motor. $6000 for 40 hp is what LMS offered. You could probably get it a little cheaper, maybe even eek a little bit more out of it. On your best day you're still not doing better than maybe $5000 for 50 hp if you're doing this as a business. And that's not a great business plan either.
You could possibly start getting into the motor to run some more boost... but there's SO much sensor and ECU control of this motor it's anyones guess what a thicker headgasket will end you up with... keep in mind the engine uses specially shaped pistons, direct injection that uses a stratified charge in open loop warm up, deeper set spark plugs, etc... you could experiment I guess if you had the budget for a spare guinea pig IS350. And it might work. Or you might go through a few expensive engines you'll have to sell a lot more kits than LMS did to even break even on your development for... and if you do manage to eek an extra 2 lbs of boost out of this development you're now jacked the end-user cost back up for having to swap their head gaskets, which is expensive labor on a V6, what with 2 cylinder heads (not that it's super cheap labor on a straight 6 either as supra owners will tell you).
So now you're down to the maybe 5% of 2IS owners with an IS-F (and that's probably a very high guess).
These folks you'll find a few willing to drop a load of cash on a custom FI kit, no doubt. And with a stronger motor you have more to work with too...That's what the TT people discussed earlier are shooting for. But they'll be few and far between and pretty much be one-off type deals.
Now, if you want "cheap" power for the 2IS... take a look at nitrous.
It's not always on, but Jeremy has been running 50 and 65 shots and gotten pretty nice results for a whole lot less than the cost of a turbo or supercharger setup... and really, having owned a stupid powerful car, you don't need or use that extra power 90% of the time anyway, so an on-demand setup would work find for most folks.
09-18-08, 06:04 PM
#101
So again, look at the 2IS cars and the market.
Somewhere around 80% of them are 250s. The best, cheapest, most reliable option for them is to trade for a 350. You're simply NOT going to produce a commercially viable FI kit for that car that is cheaper than that with better power gains. At best you -might- find a way to make it cheap enough to add 1/3-1/2 the power for 100% of the cost. Not a great business model.
Why would you spend $6000 on an FI kit to add 40 horsepower to a 250 when you can spend $4000 to add 100 horsepower by getting a 350 instead?
I'm sure there's a few folks who'll do it just to be different, but not enough to support a business.
Somewhere around 80% of them are 250s. The best, cheapest, most reliable option for them is to trade for a 350. You're simply NOT going to produce a commercially viable FI kit for that car that is cheaper than that with better power gains. At best you -might- find a way to make it cheap enough to add 1/3-1/2 the power for 100% of the cost. Not a great business model.
Why would you spend $6000 on an FI kit to add 40 horsepower to a 250 when you can spend $4000 to add 100 horsepower by getting a 350 instead?
I'm sure there's a few folks who'll do it just to be different, but not enough to support a business.
But, I just want to add something to the never-ending statement of "not enough power for the money, especially when you can upgrade models".
Mustangs are similar to IS's in that there are 2 models/engines available (V6 or GT), yet the actual car itself isn't that much different between the two models. And like the IS, there are reasons that people don't just by the GT, and would rather have a v6
yet, there are supercharger kits and other modifications available for those enthusiasts that would rather modify their V6 mustang rather than just upgrade to a GT, which probably would be easier, cheaper, and more reliable. And, while the V6 aftermarket is limited compared to the V8 counterparts, the fact remains that it's still available.
The BIG!!! difference is that besides this message forum, there probably aren't too many IS owners willing to do ANY mods to their cars, because they're not that type of car owner. They drive their IS because they like it or whatever, and that's it.
Keep in mind that to some people, a car is just a machine with an engine and 4 wheels that gets them from point A to point B.
10-27-08, 12:11 AM
#103
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lol. I mean this in no disrespect to anyone. But I would like to be able to purchase a low boost kit for my girls IS, even she said its slow compared to the ls460. For some people to say that it will be more practical to go buy a 350 in stead of putting a turbo on the 250 that is just crazy. What about the people that already have a 250 or some people out there can not afford the 350 at the time of purchase a wants to slowly mod there car.
I came from the honda scene a while back and I understand that it is not as cheap or easy to mod the IS. I also have a audi s4 and in the beginning everyone said it would be so difficult to mod, turbo swap, tapping into the ecu, and etc. But now look there are so many stg 3's running around (myself included) also some gt s4's and they are making a single. So for someone to say things are impossible or would not be right to put on a turbo that is just ridiculous. I just takes the right people to be the pioneers of a project.
Sorry for the rant, but it all comes down to " I want a low boost turbo kit"lol.
I came from the honda scene a while back and I understand that it is not as cheap or easy to mod the IS. I also have a audi s4 and in the beginning everyone said it would be so difficult to mod, turbo swap, tapping into the ecu, and etc. But now look there are so many stg 3's running around (myself included) also some gt s4's and they are making a single. So for someone to say things are impossible or would not be right to put on a turbo that is just ridiculous. I just takes the right people to be the pioneers of a project.
Sorry for the rant, but it all comes down to " I want a low boost turbo kit"lol.
10-27-08, 12:40 AM
#105
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Just so you don't think I'm anti-performance or something.... my last car made over 500 horsepower, naturally aspirated. I did much of the work myself, and virtually all the "design" of the mods myself as far as what to use. I've owned turbochargers and superchargers. Hell, one of my wifes cars is a turbo supra with a built engine.
What that has done is given me a decent appreciate for what is really worth doing and what isn't, mod-wise.
Trying to cram forced induction onto a motor that has a lot of reasons NOT to use it isn't, IMHO, really worth doing.
A head gasket swap isn't exactly a half-hour job for example, and you'll need custom gaskets at this point since there's no market for thicker 2IS head gaskets (nor is there really likely to be).
TOMs can change fuel maps and timing by the way, otherwise they wouldn't be able to let the car make use of 100 octane fuel to run the extra 0.8 lbs of boost over the LMS unit (5.8 on 100 octane vs. 5 on 93)
Let me give you a good lexus parallel.
Try and find some info on ways to add good power, na, to an SC300.
You won't find much. Because it doesn't make much sense to do it.
For the cost of adding maybe 30-40 hp with electric fans, intake, exhaust, headers, etc.... you could just as easily have swapped a 1JZ or 2JZ motor in there and added over 100 hp (more with a boost controller).
So again, look at the 2IS cars and the market.
Somewhere around 80% of them are 250s. The best, cheapest, most reliable option for them is to trade for a 350. You're simply NOT going to produce a commercially viable FI kit for that car that is cheaper than that with better power gains. At best you -might- find a way to make it cheap enough to add 1/3-1/2 the power for 100% of the cost. Not a great business model.
Why would you spend $6000 on an FI kit to add 40 horsepower to a 250 when you can spend $4000 to add 100 horsepower by getting a 350 instead?
I'm sure there's a few folks who'll do it just to be different, but not enough to support a business.
Probably 15% or better of what is left is IS350s. Now, there's some more room here since the price gap from 350->ISF is much larger than 250->350.
But you're already in a fairly small market. And it's one where the one company that already tried, LMS, got out of the business because they had no takers. Physics is physics so there's not going to be some magical breakthrough that suddenly lets you build a $2000 kit that adds 100 hp to the 2GR motor. $6000 for 40 hp is what LMS offered. You could probably get it a little cheaper, maybe even eek a little bit more out of it. On your best day you're still not doing better than maybe $5000 for 50 hp if you're doing this as a business. And that's not a great business plan either.
You could possibly start getting into the motor to run some more boost... but there's SO much sensor and ECU control of this motor it's anyones guess what a thicker headgasket will end you up with... keep in mind the engine uses specially shaped pistons, direct injection that uses a stratified charge in open loop warm up, deeper set spark plugs, etc... you could experiment I guess if you had the budget for a spare guinea pig IS350. And it might work. Or you might go through a few expensive engines you'll have to sell a lot more kits than LMS did to even break even on your development for... and if you do manage to eek an extra 2 lbs of boost out of this development you're now jacked the end-user cost back up for having to swap their head gaskets, which is expensive labor on a V6, what with 2 cylinder heads (not that it's super cheap labor on a straight 6 either as supra owners will tell you).
So now you're down to the maybe 5% of 2IS owners with an IS-F (and that's probably a very high guess).
These folks you'll find a few willing to drop a load of cash on a custom FI kit, no doubt. And with a stronger motor you have more to work with too...That's what the TT people discussed earlier are shooting for. But they'll be few and far between and pretty much be one-off type deals.
Now, if you want "cheap" power for the 2IS... take a look at nitrous.
It's not always on, but Jeremy has been running 50 and 65 shots and gotten pretty nice results for a whole lot less than the cost of a turbo or supercharger setup... and really, having owned a stupid powerful car, you don't need or use that extra power 90% of the time anyway, so an on-demand setup would work find for most folks.
What that has done is given me a decent appreciate for what is really worth doing and what isn't, mod-wise.
Trying to cram forced induction onto a motor that has a lot of reasons NOT to use it isn't, IMHO, really worth doing.
A head gasket swap isn't exactly a half-hour job for example, and you'll need custom gaskets at this point since there's no market for thicker 2IS head gaskets (nor is there really likely to be).
TOMs can change fuel maps and timing by the way, otherwise they wouldn't be able to let the car make use of 100 octane fuel to run the extra 0.8 lbs of boost over the LMS unit (5.8 on 100 octane vs. 5 on 93)
Let me give you a good lexus parallel.
Try and find some info on ways to add good power, na, to an SC300.
You won't find much. Because it doesn't make much sense to do it.
For the cost of adding maybe 30-40 hp with electric fans, intake, exhaust, headers, etc.... you could just as easily have swapped a 1JZ or 2JZ motor in there and added over 100 hp (more with a boost controller).
So again, look at the 2IS cars and the market.
Somewhere around 80% of them are 250s. The best, cheapest, most reliable option for them is to trade for a 350. You're simply NOT going to produce a commercially viable FI kit for that car that is cheaper than that with better power gains. At best you -might- find a way to make it cheap enough to add 1/3-1/2 the power for 100% of the cost. Not a great business model.
Why would you spend $6000 on an FI kit to add 40 horsepower to a 250 when you can spend $4000 to add 100 horsepower by getting a 350 instead?
I'm sure there's a few folks who'll do it just to be different, but not enough to support a business.
Probably 15% or better of what is left is IS350s. Now, there's some more room here since the price gap from 350->ISF is much larger than 250->350.
But you're already in a fairly small market. And it's one where the one company that already tried, LMS, got out of the business because they had no takers. Physics is physics so there's not going to be some magical breakthrough that suddenly lets you build a $2000 kit that adds 100 hp to the 2GR motor. $6000 for 40 hp is what LMS offered. You could probably get it a little cheaper, maybe even eek a little bit more out of it. On your best day you're still not doing better than maybe $5000 for 50 hp if you're doing this as a business. And that's not a great business plan either.
You could possibly start getting into the motor to run some more boost... but there's SO much sensor and ECU control of this motor it's anyones guess what a thicker headgasket will end you up with... keep in mind the engine uses specially shaped pistons, direct injection that uses a stratified charge in open loop warm up, deeper set spark plugs, etc... you could experiment I guess if you had the budget for a spare guinea pig IS350. And it might work. Or you might go through a few expensive engines you'll have to sell a lot more kits than LMS did to even break even on your development for... and if you do manage to eek an extra 2 lbs of boost out of this development you're now jacked the end-user cost back up for having to swap their head gaskets, which is expensive labor on a V6, what with 2 cylinder heads (not that it's super cheap labor on a straight 6 either as supra owners will tell you).
So now you're down to the maybe 5% of 2IS owners with an IS-F (and that's probably a very high guess).
These folks you'll find a few willing to drop a load of cash on a custom FI kit, no doubt. And with a stronger motor you have more to work with too...That's what the TT people discussed earlier are shooting for. But they'll be few and far between and pretty much be one-off type deals.
Now, if you want "cheap" power for the 2IS... take a look at nitrous.
It's not always on, but Jeremy has been running 50 and 65 shots and gotten pretty nice results for a whole lot less than the cost of a turbo or supercharger setup... and really, having owned a stupid powerful car, you don't need or use that extra power 90% of the time anyway, so an on-demand setup would work find for most folks.
preach on brotha preach on!