c0wboy

And again, as I said before, the best part about them is that they're available. That's about it. The set in the pictures had to be modified to help guard against cracking, and then as a caviat the customer was informed that if they do crack, don't be all that surprised. They're a bit dodgy. Also I was present at the time of the measurement. It's easy to measure the tubing wall thickness when the inside area of between the flange and tubing isn't welded. For some reason only the outside is welded, strange.

Here's a pic you asked for of one of our mani'. You can see the .125 stainless material.



Single wastegate version



What exactly are you getting out of all of this?

JBrady

You know Eric you would probably be upset if someone had ANY problem with any of your work and they posted comments in the way that you keep posting comments on the S&S headers.

You again say that the best/only positive is that they are available!!!
Again I say the best part is that they WORK.
Also since the thicker tubing and welding changes there has been NO reported cracking. You state the ones pictured HAD to be modified... WHY??? did they crack? Were they the current parts? If the answer was NO and NO your statement is misleading at best. I am CERTAIN that you will want to be treated fairly when one of your customers has a problem and BELIEVE me if that hasn't happened yet it WILL. It happens at every shop... period.

The only sets that were welded on the outside were the 1st batch. The only section so welded was the outlet of the collector at the catalyst flange. That section at 2.5" OD is a 2 into one swaged collector. It is possible that section used .049" tube size since it may be easier to swage. For the record AFAIK that section has NEVER failed.

That was only on the very first 20 headers made. It was discovered that the catalyst has a ridge that needs space inside the flange. Hence the change to inside welding as it would be more positive when recessing the tubing the required amount. This change was incorporated on the next 10-20 headers built (possibly more) and was done before the tubing thickness increase.

The use of inside welding only (except tacks) on the primary to head flange is the MOST common construction practice by header builders including Hooker, Hedman, Borla, Kooks, Stainless Works, Schoenfeld, JBA and most other manufacturers. It is proven and strong.


All I ask is that accurate information to be presented WITHOUT ambiguous words and phrases.

The first batch(es) of S&S headers will crack. This has been documented and detailed by myself in many threads. The upgraded S&S headers have been crack free to date. This does not mean perfect but is good and accurate information.

BTW, your turbo manifolds look solid. I understand wanting to use thick tubing in extreme applications like very high horsepower turbocharged engines.

That said I am fairly certain you are familar with Jack Burns the owner of Burns Stainless. Burns builds arguably the best exhaust header and component parts short of Formula 1. Burns lists 18 gauge and 16 gauge tubing on their site. They show turbo collectors that are at most 14 gauge tubing. It must be their professional opinion that this is thick enough when properly constructed.







BTW, Jack Burns apprenticed under Loren Barnes. Loren has been building headers probably longer than you have been alive.

So, again, I am ALL for accurate imput and critisizm. Let's just keep it professional and respectful. To date S&S has handled all warranty issues without question and gone out of their way to resolve problems. I would say they are more interested in producing trouble free products (at the very least to eliminate warranty costs)

sakataj

iTrader: (182)

in before the

j/k great informative information on this post

c0wboy

JBrady, if you read my posts in this thread, they aren't direspectful, they only disagree with the cheerleading. The best part about the S&S is that they're available.. period. I'd expect some gains since the stock headers are so dodgey. I've held in my hands multiple sets that have all cracked in the same general vicinity. Some in the welds and some that sectioned the piping completely. I'm not impressed.

Again, I find it curious that every S&S thread that has popped up, you are involved. And if anyone says boo, you write novels until the person with the problem gives up in disgust. That's disrepectful, JBrady. Are you on the payroll? Because the responses so far lead to that impression. If folks have a problem, the right answer is "Alright, we hear you, and consider it fixed.". I know someone who's dumped over $2,000 between two sets of S&S headers and labor, only to have both sets crack and eventually put the stockers back on. He was nearly run out of CL on a rail when he spoke up. Not everyone is in love with these headers, and indeed many people use them only because they're available. Myself included. Maybe they're made in China, maybe they're not. I suppose whether they are or not is inconsequential when the quality is par or less than the Chinese mani's out there. That's not a dig, either, that's headers cracking on an otherwise stock engine.

Again, no disrepect intended, I'm only disagreeing with you on where the headers are on the quality scale.

Eric

Rock-a-Lex

iTrader: (4)

To end this, we should start a thread of all CL members who have the 2nd + batch S&S headers and ask:

-how long have you had them for?
-approximately how many miles were driven with them?
-what's your driving style (i.e. abusive or passive)?
-have they ever cracked on you (if so, where)?

A simple poll displaying these 4 questions will "tell all" as to if the S&S headers (2nd batch) are a good quality product that offer good results.

JBrady

So... you do not see the disrespect you are stating and impying???

I have explained myself in many many places. You seem to think I am doing something else. I have thoroughly addressed every point you have brought up. To imply that it is some kind of a ploy on my behalf is a direct insult.

I really do not appreciate being accused of lying or deception. Most people that follow my posts do not seem to share you slant. It is the new ones that may be confused by your posts that is my concern.

It's too bad you choose to take this approach.

c0wboy

I'm not sure what youre' asking me. Are you asking me if I feel I've hurt your feelings because I'm asking hard questions and making obvious observations? If that's the question then my answer is no, I don't. We're both adults here and adults ask tough questions sometimes. Also I'm not accusing you of lying or deception. On the surface and through your posts/actions, it appears that you're selling these and have a stake in the cut. That's not only my view, others share it s well. If that's the case then that's outstanding for you, but you are presenting yourself as a bystander without a dog in the race. I didn't know that you had a fanbase here on CL nor that it mattered to you.

To recap and hopefully put this to bed, Th S&S headers are ok. They will free up some HP and they're available. No doubt about that. What I don't find likeable is the cheap thin materials they're made from that have a nasty habit of cracking. The overall design could be a lot better along with the collector, but I don't think folks will pay for anything better. That's an honest report on them. Take it for what it's worth I suppose.

Eric

JBrady

cOwboy...

No, actually what is happening here is that you are either unwilling or unable to agree with anything that contradicts any of your "claims"

When I clearly show that your accusations are inaccurate you choose to insult me, repeat your inaccurate statements and create new distractions.

Doing the above does NOT make you correct. It makes you appear petty.

Let’s look at your “facts” and my responses again:

cObowy (post 40) “I'm sure there's a shelf somewhere with pallet loads of them.”

Jbrady: Incorrect, S&S builds all headers in house in Glendale Arizona in small batch runs of 20 sets as necessary based on demand.

cObowy (post 40) “The problem I and other have with them is the fact that the construction is rather cheap”

Jbrady: While stainless would be better you elsewhere completely agree that it would make these USA built parts too expensive for most.

cObowy (post 40) “The piping is a mild steel with a very thin wall”

Jbrady: You imply that the tubing is thin below standard. The current thickness is 14 gauge = .083” which is WAY above standard header thickness of the .049” and even .065” standards that even Burns stainless sells. Burns does not list thicker than .065” on their website.

cObowy (post 40) “every set I've laid hands on has been prone to cracking”

JBrady: possibly true if you have only had the 1st batch before the thickness increase. Since this upgrade was made roughly 2 years ago your statement is at the very least outdated. If in fact you have a current set that has cracked S&S would be VERY interested in hearing the details. S&S has had NO REPORT of any current design header cracking.

cObowy (post 40) “The fix for us has been to get the sets in, and then immediately reweld them with stronger materials so as to reinforce them”

JBrady: Based on my previous answers not only is this unnecessary but could actually lead to cracking IF care is not take to NOT temper the metal making it brittle. A modified part is NOT covered under warranty (for obvious reasons).

cObowy (post 40) “On a side note, and I don't want to pass this along as gospel, but the headers have a certain heir of being made in China”

JBrady: This is and extension of your opening incorrect assumption and already answered as such.

cObowy (post 40) “Holding them up the other clearly Chinese made manifolds, the similarities are apparent. It's a shame that it's the only real option now; a quality SS set with thick wall tubing would run quite a bit more than what S&S are fetching.”

JBrady: Simply re-iterating your original incorrect accusations. This is WHY I end up writing “novels” to addess your negative and incorrect statements because it is EASY to accuse but unfortunately a factual defense takes WORK.

Please re-read each of my FACTUAL and ACCURATE responses to your accusations in my posts #41 and #47 which takes us up to your latest post… which is both smug and crafted to make yourself look intelligent without actually doing any work or offering accurate responses to my statements of fact… let’s look and let the CL readers that care to investigate come to their own conclusions.

cObowy (post 52) “I'm not sure what youre' asking me. Are you asking me if I feel I've hurt your feelings because I'm asking hard questions and making obvious observations? If that's the question then my answer is no, I don't. We're both adults here and adults ask tough questions sometimes.”

JBrady: Feelings not hurt, simply concerned that factual and accurate information is presented rather than attacks disguised as unbiased “facts” coming from a vendor salesman trying to look good.

cObowy (post 52) “Also I'm not accusing you of lying or deception. On the surface and through your posts/actions, it appears that you're selling these and have a stake in the cut. That's not only my view, others share it s well. If that's the case then that's outstanding for you, but you are presenting yourself as a bystander without a dog in the race”

JBrady: Perfect example of what I have been stating. You start by “claiming” not to be accusing me of deception and then immediately accuse me of deception…

JBrady: For the RECORD for the umpteenth time… NO, I do not work for S&S, I receive no commissions of ANY kind from the sales, I have never been to their shop nor met any of the S&S staff in person only by telephone. My involvement is well documented for anyone to read by reviewing the sticky in THIS section that has been there for OVER THREE YEARS…

cObowy (post 52) “What I don't find likeable is the cheap thin materials they're made from that have a nasty habit of cracking.”

JBrady: Again, you bring up the SAME points that I have SPECIFICALLY addressed both in this thread as well as others where you make the same accusation.

Here is my CHALLENGE to you… find me ANY other headers made for ANY NON-turbo application (including your own) that uses thicker than the 14 gauge (.083”) tubing thickness now used by S&S… You will find almost all available naturally aspirated headers use .049” or .065” tubing. Using this logic must mean that you believe that EVERY header on the market must be cheap and thin.

As far as CHEAP is concerned the only thing that seems to fit this statement is they are mild steel instead of stainless. Again, the VAST majority of headers are mild steel. Stainless is excellent and expensive. Of course Jet Hot coating is NOT cheap and while not stainless it does make the mild steel FAR superior to uncoated steel.

cObowy (post 52) “The overall design could be a lot better along with the collector, but I don't think folks will pay for anything better. That's an honest report on them.”

JBrady: This may be your actual opinion and is a self corrected statement by admitting for the price the S&S are so far unbeatable. Your simple looking but complex “claim” includes a new (for this thread anyway) criticism of the “collector”. To this I must ask WHICH of the SIX collectors are you talking about??? The first two on each header are MERGE collectors which is VERY rare to find in street headers at any price. The final collector is a compromise but also contains the oxygen sensor and transitions into the catalyst while fitting is the stock location. Good luck doing better at an affordable price which is a point you both concede and then ignore while criticizing.

cObowy (post 49) “if anyone says boo, you write novels”

JBrady: I conclude with your above statement because while intended as an insult it is does accidentally make a good point.

Writing “novels” to correct careless and erroneous claims such as the above is a PAIN in the **** and I would rather not do so. I spent a HUGE amount of time coordinating and educating and executing many tasks with the goal of seeing that a header option be created for these engines. Some criticized during the process to which I always stated PLEASE build some headers for us if you can… NOBODY did. So the attachment I feel towards this subject is WELL EARNED and to see someone jump on with uneducated attacks detracts from my HONEST and FREE contribution I have made on this subject for YEARS.

SO, UNLESS you can back up (as I have) your claims you should NOT post ignorantly. Trust me when I tell you I can EASILY nit pick ANY part by ANY vendor but realize instead the tremendous effort it takes (you and yours included) to produce something of value. The times I criticize will be when claims are made that mislead and when I do so it is specific and as accurate as possible.

c0wboy

Just because you write a lot of words doesn't make you correct, JBrady. Doesn't make me or anyone correct. The S&S headers stand for themselves for better or worse. You see the better, I see the worse. I think you're points are valid and I believe that you believe what you're saying. Thing is that I also believe what I'm saying. I believe it because I've held sets both with and without failures. They're ok JBrady, and I've said that before. They're available and I'm sure they'll do the job. They're also prone to cracking and the design is a little on the so-so side. That's an honest assessment. Maybe the reason others don't voice it is because they know if they'll be chastized on the forums. I've had Lexus owners tell me to my face that it's not worth reporting the problems because of the arguements that follow. Whatever, I say.

Eric

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

c0wboy, here is one of the bottom lines most of us want to know. You say the headers are cheaply made and prone to craking. jbrady acknowledged that the ver 1 SS headers were thinner with weaker welds and indeed did crack. He then said ver 2 uses slightly thicker materials and a different weld pattern and so far there are no reports of them cracking. What we all want to know is if you have seen ver 2 crack. Truth be told, I personally don't care about the cracking issues on ver 1 if there indeed is a ver 2 that corrects that problem. All I care is if ver 2 cracks or not. So, have you ever seen ver 2 crack?

Keep in mind, I'm new to SS headers since I just got a 2G a couple of months ago. I only know what I read here. I read about problems with ver 1 and now a corrected ver 2 is out. I think it is very important to let us know what ver hearders you are talking about. Did ver 2 SS headers ever crack? Or are you talking about the past ver 1 hearders? Personally, I wouldn't touch ver 1 hearders with the known problem, but if those problems are fixed with ver 2 I don't see what the problem is.

c0wboy

The example I'm thinking of involved a CL member who's v.1 cracked on one runner clean in two. He complained to S&S and they sent out another set of headers. This was over the spring/summer time, so I would assume that it would v.2 that he got. V.2 was installed and not long after he developed a crack at the weld in the same vicinity. So this summer he complained again to S&S and this time according to the member here, they wenr'e going to end out another set. Having to do something because the header was falling apart, he had the stock set installed and sucked up the $2000+ cost between the headers and the installs. He made the same case that I'm making now that the S&S are ok, but not very reliable and he had novels tossed at him too, so in the end he just said to hell with it and never posted about his problems again. I have the split pair of headers now and since it all went down earlier this year I am inclined to beleive that they were the v.2. There's no markings on the headers themselves that say version 1 or version 2.

Thanks,

Eric

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

See, now that is what I want to hear. Now if jbrady can address this specific case and verify or dispute if these were ver 2 headers or not we are on the right track. jbrady says S&S will back up their product and would like to hear about any specific failures with the revised ver 2 hearders. So, if these headers in question can be verified to be ver 2 then I would suggest S&S have a second look and make any corrections as needed.

The bottom line here is I really don't care who's company makes these headers or who likes them or now. All I care about is if we as an owner and/or potential buyers get a product that 1) Works, 2) is reliable, and 3) at a reasonable cost. So far 1) and 3) are not really issues with these headers as they do work and they are of reasonable cost. Point 2) is still up in the air if those ver 2 headers are still having problems. Unless those specific headers are still around for inspection I don't think this issue will be resolved until we get some miles on the ver 2 hearder and owners report any problems. If those headers in question are still available, I'd have them sent back to the manufacturer and document with pictures for the rest of us to see how things get resolved.

JBrady

CK, you are exactly the type of person that I took the time to make the extensive reply above... for YOU to be informed. Your judgement is correct. I have had people email me on buying used S&S and I always advise avoiding the early ones. I have also spoken to MANY of the first batch users as I organized the original group buy to create them.

AFAIK, all warranty claims have been met on cracked headers. Some chose to weld their own. I spoke to Mr. Loren Barnes (S&S owner and designer) and he told me there had been no reported failures at all since the redesign. I made a post to that effect in Sept. Here is the link
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/per...nt-design.html
I listed much of what I have had to RE-list here.

I also want to know more about cOwboy's claims.

JBrady

Your claim is that your customer had an original set that failed.

You claim S&S replaced them under warranty THIS summer... this seems very strange as that would be several years after the original versions were sold. I cannot be certain but I think the warranty is for one year. So, if S&S replaced them there is more to that story. PLEASE PM me this customers details and I will personally call S&S to research. I will post the results with or without the specific customers forum ID if that is what he wishes.

If in fact your customer has failed the current version both I and S&S will want to know.

Question: did you re-weld this set BEFORE you installed them? If so that could be the problem as I state above. Please post all the details you can or, if you prefer to keep such private then PM all the details to me.

I find it VERY hard to imagine that your customer installed the current version THIS YEAR and already failed them AND you already replace them with the stock parts presumably some time ago... ALL THIS YEAR??? Even the original batch went thousands of miles before failing.

Now, you also say this particular customer had "novels tossed at him too" PLEASE PLEASE post a link to this supposed occurance or at the very least PM me with it.

Claims without details are not worth much.

evil00017

It seems to me that ***** footing around the real facts like "someone" has been just discredits him and the vendor he is working for. Especially when they have been addressed on multiple occasions. I have seen it before and now I am seeing it again and its stuff like this that makes me weary of buying anything from this vendor.