c0wboy

That certainly your right and privilege. The person I mentioned when asked about it is my friend, not my customer, and he prefers to be left out of it, hence the use of pronouns. In the end, it's not like I/we/whoever is selling competing headers. There's no gain to be made. I just don't like the S&S headers. I think the materials they're made from and the construction has a cheap heir to it and they break. Sad but true. The upshot is that they're available. That's the long and short of it. That's the "real facts".

You know what? Here's my fix. Here's the suggestion on the S&S. Use .065 or thicker gauge stainless. Weld the runners to the flanges both inside and out (not just press fit and tack). Go 4-1 into a proper collector. Simple as that. Do those things and S&S have a real winner on their hands.

Eric

c0wboy

He's not my customer he's my friend, and he's asked that he be left out of it. He's already dealt with whoever at S&S when his second set fell apart, and he didn't gain satisfaction, so his stock mani's are bock on. In Summer of 2007 he showed me his first brand new set out of the box, and by the summer of 08, he was removing his second cracked set. That's where he's leaving it.

Again, just make a better mani, dude. Either you work for them or you don't, I don't care. But obviously you have some hand in this. Just make a better mani. See the suggestions above. Even if you ignore all of the suggestions and only use .065 or better stainless, that'll make a huge difference. Why are the S&S so married to the mild steel? Are the margins so tight that you can't spring for that extra little bit for the stainless? It sure would alleviate a lot of useless areguements like this one.

Eric

TeeLex

iTrader: (24)

I'm one of the first adopters of the S&S headers and have had version 1, a better welded version 1 ( w/ the same gage thickness ) and version 2 w/ thicker gage material and weld improvements.

Time to get some real world experience from someone who has at least 30,000 miles on S&S headers.

First of all, they do increase power and it is very usable ( great mid-range ) - 17 rwhp and 28 lb-ft of torque on the dyno w/ Pearlpower's SC430. I can say from the butt-dyno that the mid-range improvement is even better than the top-end numbers just quoted.

I had version 1 ( first set of 20 ) crack on the passenger side header after about 4 months ( ~7000 miles ). S&S was very helpful and sent me a replacement w/o having received the cracked header back, so that I could immediately replace it anad continue to use my everyday 'driver.' The replacement header cracked in a similar location about 6 months later -same response from S&S - they sent out a new header ( now w/thicker tubing ) immediately and I replaced it and sent the cracked header back. This last replacement has been on the car for over 20 months with no cracks or other problems.

My driver side header has never cracked or had any problems ( and this is version 1 ). I believe I have the answer for why the driver side does not crack, but I won't discuss that here.

I believe these headers are a real bargain for what they do and cost. Would I like to have stainless headers ( that perform at least as well )? Yes, but who makes them?? Also the headers ( which have the Jet Hot coating ) look very good even after 20+ months of everyday use. I'm also someone who uses the HP my car makes - so no granny miles.

I did the install myself. I am very satisfied with the product, especially for the cost. I am also appreciative for JBrady's efforts in getting these headers made @ S&S. There was much time and effort involved, and without JBrady getting this started I would have no headers for my car.

If someone wants to produce a quality set of stainless headers - have at it, I'm sure there would be some takers.

JBrady

TeeLex,

Thank you for taking the time to post your actual experience.

Of course you are now risking being accused of conspiring with me to decieve the Lexus community

JBrady

So, let me get this straight... your ONLY example is a "friend" who you previously called a "customer" who conveniently (for you) wants to be "left out of it" which alieves you of actualy providing FACTS to support your CLAIMS.

Jeezzz

Get some facts or quit posting hearsay.

Again, let's get this straight... in the summer of 2007... WAY AFTER the cracking problems had been THOROUGHLY detailed by ME on this forum

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/per...ed-header.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/2287592-post6.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/2296073-post22.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/2345349-post36.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/2346773-post40.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/2451368-post51.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/2655054-post91.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/2655054-post91.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/2125023-post29.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/2500489-post60.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/2500495-post61.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/2503228-post71.html



NOT that I expect you to actually READ what has been DETAILED and ADVISED.

To recap... IF you installed a set of first generation headers in summer of 2007 it is in fact YOU that did YOUR friend the disservice. If he is in fact OUT $2000 this FRIEND did not seem to get a "friendly" price from YOU.

If you were UNAWARE of the issue with the headers it is YOU who chose to ignore the copious warnings and details about the 1st generation headers. Again, it is YOUR mistake. If you DID read and WERE aware it is also possible that you THOUGHT you would simply re-weld the 1st gen headers before installing them. As I have posted that can actually CAUSE them to fail. The reasons why are engineering in nature and you complain that I write "novels" already so if someone wants that answer they can review the links I just provided, PM me or post a request here and I will answer AGAIN.

If my GUESS on you re-welding them is correct (as I already posted in this thread) it is also possible that you re-welded the second set and therefore weakend the metal actually CAUSING the second failure.

Of course this is ALL speculation as you fail to provide any facts or details. Heck your entire story is unsupported and arguably non-existant.


I DON'T make them.


I don't work for them. I do not appreciate the implication that I am a liar. I doubt you would say that to my face.


Your EXPERT suggestions? The ones you state YOU cannot do because the cost would be too high and the market too small?


You complain about my writing "novels" and then ask me to RE-explain what I have already explained. Stop posting and start reading.

ALL parts are compromises. You even admit this but demand others ignore your own advice.

I have made a HUGE effort to clearly and accurated communicate every aspect of the header project from day one. Almost all of my posts are backed up with technically supported information and where ever possible actual test data and real world experiences of others using the headers.

Unfortunately you cannot make the same claim for the products you represent and post about. You make claims such as 27% increase in flow yet make no effort or possibly have no understanding of WHY and HOW this effects an engine. You DO understand that making such statements will entice some people to spend money in expectation of satisfaction. That is what I call a SALESMAN. I make a distinction between a salesman who will say whatever it takes to extract money and a sales PROFESSIONAL who actually cares about his customers and expects a long term mutually beneficial relationship.

Now, after all your bloviating (which you will probably accuse me of) maybe you will start posting real world data about your products such as...

-how long have you tested the engine assemblies you sell?
-have you had any failures?
-what are the power gains at various levels from stock to wild?
-actual dyno charts showing low and mid range performance?
-practicallity of using your assemblies in daily driven vehicles.

After all, you are not selling $600 anything. Your engines cost $14,000+ and over $20,000 with a stroker crank. Maybe some of your EXTENSIVE testing and data proving reliability of your products BEFORE you start collecting such sums would be interesting.

Now be careful... you REALLY do not want to get into a debate with me over the WAY you are presenting the FACTS about your offerings.

JBrady

I really did not intend to turn this into a courtroom here but I pointed out that c0wboy/MVP was using the S&S headers for one of his customers expensive engines. Here is his response on this thread in his post #46 in this thread.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/4085833-post46.html

Now, below is a picture of the engine I refered and c0wboy responded to above.

Clearly his claim of rewelding that set of headers is false.

The catalyst flange is cleary tack welded on the outside which is in fact the way they are built. No rewelding was done there disproving his claims.

A close look (tough to see but visable) is the head flange to primary tube interfaces. Again, no additional welding. False claim.

This whole thing is a pain but I have been directly accused so it is only fair to point out the consistency in both my information as well as the accusers.

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/clu...-to-order.html




Now, let me ADD that it is NICE to see the work being done at MVP Motorsports. I just dislike they way the products and their applications are being "sold" by c0wboy.

One more note to this threads readers. If you search for posts by cOwboy nothing comes up. This is interesting. Not sure if intended or not. To find his posts you need to use the NUMBER "0" not the letter O. Search under c0wboy not cOwboy.

c0wboy

See now JBrady, this is why no one speaks up when there is a problem. They don't want to put up with long winded retorts that are as boring as they are useless in creating a better manifold. You're not going to bait me into whatever you're trying to bait me into. Of course you're not going to like what I have to say, sir... it doesn't fall lock step into your agenda. I just said I don't like your manifolds, does that insult your sensibilities, or is your skin thick enough to say live an let live?

Also, for someone who has such an eye for detail you missed where we reinforced the runners at the point of common failures. Around the collector areas at the runner. After the welds were laid to stave off an defects inherent to the headers, we recoated them in jet hot silver. I still have the receipts. If say that we welded to reinforce, you can bet the farm that it was done. Of the two of us, I'm not the one selling something as I have no product to offer.

Again, I don't like your headers. They're on par with Chinese manifolds at best but at least the Chinese manifolds are made of some grade of stainless. The upshot is that they're available. You can write War and Peace if you like, but that fact will never change.

Eric

GS FONZy

iTrader: (6)

I too got 1st batch, since I got mine early 06 and all I could say is after install.
Dropped .3sec on the 1/8 track. Best mod for the money, so far. Mid 07 I started to hear an exhaust leak, I found a crack in the passanger side header, so I emailed Luis at Carson since I got them there and I knew that S&S was stepping up and addressing the issue However; I was past the one year warranty and Luis said he would look into it and get back to me. I installed the headers my self and felt it was an easy enough fix, I didn't want to wait . So, I removed the header rewelded and reinstalled in about an hour. I have not had any issue since and if no one want to buy S&S headers, better for me because my car will be faster than yours If you're NA ofcourse

JBrady

Another smug, baseless, undocumented, unsupported attempt at self defense.

You make claims and then fail to have ANY facts.

Post up or stay quiet.

You are the salesman here and are using this thread to create attention. In that you have been successful. Congratulations.

It is still YOUR FAULT for installing 1st gen headers on your FRIENDS car (then charging him) AFTER the cracking issue was known.

c0wboy

Actually, I had no hand in the install. Another well known central Florida shop did the labor portion, and I'll verify that the labor portion of the install was handled completely correct. I'm just the guy who held the first and second sets in his hands both before and after the headers came apart. That's my involvement in it. That and while his headers were getting put back to stock I picked him up from the shop and we went to the RC hobby shop for a while as his car was wrapping up. As I remember he had a few choice words.

Again, there's nothing for me to sell, nor there is nothing for me to defend. I don't sell our version of a V8 header, but I do have a set at the fab shop that have one of the runners completely sectioned. That's all I'm saying. Please get it straight. I have no interest in selling V8 headers. The S&S headers we've had experience with have been lacking in all the ways that we've covered above. I'm sorry if that offends you but as you don't have a stake in them either way, you really shouldn't care, now should you. I'll post up pics of the disintegrating S&S headers for you, if you like.

This thread has grown boring. Very boring. Word to the wise, sir. Next time someone has something negative to say about the product that you are [clearly] selling, don't come off like a sea lawyer writing Charles Dickens novels. It makes you come off in the wrong light, and portrays you as someone that can't accept any form of criticism. Not everyone will be in love with your headers. Happy they're here, BUT they could be a whole lot better.

Laters,

Eric

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Eric, its time for you to exit this thread please. If you'd been able to keep this discussion impersonal and mature it could have been a productive discussion for our members. However that is not the case..... again. Thread after thread I seem to have to have to post this warning.

I think you have some valuable knowledge to share with our members or you wouldn't still be a member of our community. Please don't keep giving me cause to reconsider.

Other folks - back on topic please and keep this thread informative and factual.

c0wboy

I hear you man, I wasn't planning on posting anymore. The point is pretty clear on where I stand with the S&S manifolds, and I feel that one persons view is as valid as the next persons.

Eric

GILLEXUS

iTrader: (14)

Here is Pearlpower's proven results

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sc-...cs-dyno-5.html

JBrady

If ANYONE feels in ANY way that their point of view is not being fairly presented please feel free to PM me in confidence. I will make every effort to courteously address your concerns.

If ANYONE knows of ANY failures with the current S&S design again please PM me in confidence (and or post publicly).

I am NOT associated with S&S but feel some responsibility since I got this whole thing started.

I actually LIKE criticism. It indicates that I have either not clearly communicated AND/OR that there is an actual problem that needs resolution. Either way the end is constructive.

I would prefer criticism that is respectful in nature but can handle it either way.

Modifying cars can be fun but can also be frustrating and expensive. Hopefully my efforts to post "novels" is appreciated by some and will help some get better results without wasting time and money.

I wish EVERYONE a safe and happy holiday season (c0wboy included)

Rock-a-Lex

iTrader: (4)

...good ending guys! Remember, we are all on the same side (lexus enthusiasts).