Nitrous and Meth inj.
01-28-09, 05:22 PM
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Nitrous and Meth inj.
ok..so could someone explain to me the difference? (i know they are different, and i understand nitrous..so i guess just the meth injection) and if im running close to 9psi with stock fuel and HG would i have to upgrade both of them to add nitrous? and would i benefit at all from a meth inj. kit?
Thanks
Thanks
01-28-09, 09:31 PM
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I have a dry shot here with 50hp jet I was going to install when I first got my car last month. I now plan to use it eventually to help reduce turbo lag once I get my motor and transmission built...probably a long ways off so I'm considering selling it.
01-28-09, 10:12 PM
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ok sou wanna know about meth, most people use a water meth mix like 50/50 or something (aka windshield washer fluid ;-) haha). the water thats injected absorbs alot of heat and helps to prevent detonation, so you can run a higher boost level without lowering compression and you can also change the timing to add even more power. than the meth thats injected with the water acts like a fuel, the meth is i think like 120 octain or something dont quote me on that but it is a great source of fuel, so that is just an easier way to add fuel without upgrading your fuel system. like on stock fuel system and stock compression you can run 14-15psi easily if not more.
now nitrous, is an incredibly combustible fuel, that is rediculiously cold when it comes out of the nozzle. so the cold cools the intake temp by so much that its actually getting more dense cold air into the engine as well as adding that fuel, thats why it adds so much power. now people use nitrous to add power but in a turbo car thats not really that necessary, its best for spooling and cooling, it adds power when your not in boost so it will help spool your turbo up really fast, and adds a fuel and cools the intake temps. great for drag racing.
id say stick with the water meth kit instead of nitrous until you start running with the real big dogs at like 800+hp.
hope this info helps ;-)
now nitrous, is an incredibly combustible fuel, that is rediculiously cold when it comes out of the nozzle. so the cold cools the intake temp by so much that its actually getting more dense cold air into the engine as well as adding that fuel, thats why it adds so much power. now people use nitrous to add power but in a turbo car thats not really that necessary, its best for spooling and cooling, it adds power when your not in boost so it will help spool your turbo up really fast, and adds a fuel and cools the intake temps. great for drag racing.
id say stick with the water meth kit instead of nitrous until you start running with the real big dogs at like 800+hp.
hope this info helps ;-)
01-30-09, 01:04 AM
#6
Meth helps with cooling intake air as well as cylinder temps (it burns MUCH cooler than gasoline) and also has a high octane rating. You *can* run more boost on methanol but it is risky as if you run out of meth your engine goes boom very quickly, end of story. On nitrous if you run out you would basically not have any extra power but it wouldn't hurt your motor like running out of meth running a high amount of boost. Nitrous also cools but is considered a "power adder" where Meth is not, Meth is more like a tuning tool.
Also, the majority of power gained from Meth comes from advanced timing under boost. You will gain a little power with Meth without timing control but not nearly as much as with timing advance.
IMO from past NA-T's I've done I wouldn't push the envelope on a stock motor too far. You will make more power for awhile but while your running stock compression and trying to turn up the boost you are really asking for trouble. Alot of the cars have experienced rapid ring wear (loss of compression) etc....on Na-T cars from the increased pressure. When you combine high boost with high compression you are really playing with fire. I don't know what your money situation is but it would be a good idea to have some cash stores for tranny work/engine etc...just in case either goes as running Meth/Nitrous/high boost is going to get you into the territory of tranny issues etc...not trying to discourage you, just something to keep on the back burner.
I know you don't want to hear it and you disagree with me, but you are really pushing the envelope by running stock fuel whether that's what other people do or say or not. Just because you *can* run stock fuel doesn't mean it's safe, you can easily approximate the hp/fuel flow of the 2jz motor and at 9psi assuming a healthy motor you should be making around 320hp, for that power level you should be running at least 320cc injectors, the stock injectors are no where near that let alone the pressure capabilities of the stock pump. Just as I mentioned with the Meth, you are leaving yourself no headroom with fuel and if anything was to go wrong (one good overboost for example) you would already be at the threshold of engine damage. The money you use for a nitrous kit or Meth kit could easily get you a bigger pump, a return fuel setup, a regulator and almost a set of injectors. You wouldn't have to worry about running out of fuel anymore, you could run more boost SAFELY and when running race gas you could have enough fuel to support how ever much boost you wanted (reasonably). It gives you alot of benefits and peace of mind as well as the capability to increase performance when your ready (new headgasket etc...).
P.s- If you wanted to be a little more safe, running race gas will give you similar effects to Meth. You will able to turn up the boost etc..but you wont have to worry about a mechanical failure/running out of Meth as your tank will be full of "safe" fuel. I won't say anything else to you about the fuel system but I'm just trying to warn you now, I've seen plenty of cars blow up from being lean and it always sucks for whoever owns it. It's your car, do what you want, but take a few minutes to calculate the fuel requirements to airflow your pushing and you may not be so quick to dismiss proper fueling.
Also, the majority of power gained from Meth comes from advanced timing under boost. You will gain a little power with Meth without timing control but not nearly as much as with timing advance.
IMO from past NA-T's I've done I wouldn't push the envelope on a stock motor too far. You will make more power for awhile but while your running stock compression and trying to turn up the boost you are really asking for trouble. Alot of the cars have experienced rapid ring wear (loss of compression) etc....on Na-T cars from the increased pressure. When you combine high boost with high compression you are really playing with fire. I don't know what your money situation is but it would be a good idea to have some cash stores for tranny work/engine etc...just in case either goes as running Meth/Nitrous/high boost is going to get you into the territory of tranny issues etc...not trying to discourage you, just something to keep on the back burner.
I know you don't want to hear it and you disagree with me, but you are really pushing the envelope by running stock fuel whether that's what other people do or say or not. Just because you *can* run stock fuel doesn't mean it's safe, you can easily approximate the hp/fuel flow of the 2jz motor and at 9psi assuming a healthy motor you should be making around 320hp, for that power level you should be running at least 320cc injectors, the stock injectors are no where near that let alone the pressure capabilities of the stock pump. Just as I mentioned with the Meth, you are leaving yourself no headroom with fuel and if anything was to go wrong (one good overboost for example) you would already be at the threshold of engine damage. The money you use for a nitrous kit or Meth kit could easily get you a bigger pump, a return fuel setup, a regulator and almost a set of injectors. You wouldn't have to worry about running out of fuel anymore, you could run more boost SAFELY and when running race gas you could have enough fuel to support how ever much boost you wanted (reasonably). It gives you alot of benefits and peace of mind as well as the capability to increase performance when your ready (new headgasket etc...).
P.s- If you wanted to be a little more safe, running race gas will give you similar effects to Meth. You will able to turn up the boost etc..but you wont have to worry about a mechanical failure/running out of Meth as your tank will be full of "safe" fuel. I won't say anything else to you about the fuel system but I'm just trying to warn you now, I've seen plenty of cars blow up from being lean and it always sucks for whoever owns it. It's your car, do what you want, but take a few minutes to calculate the fuel requirements to airflow your pushing and you may not be so quick to dismiss proper fueling.
Last edited by macd7919; 01-30-09 at 01:32 AM.
01-30-09, 08:26 AM
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I don't have a lot of time to respond to your entire post right now and while your right in certain way of thinking, meth is not that dangerous if you know what your doing. I have a friend who works at a local shop and runs meth on LOTS of cars he setups up and doesn't ever have any failures. The key is to run the right meth kit with safety features to prevent possible failures. Lets face it, if you overboost no matter what fuel you use to acheive proper air/fuel combustion your not going to like the results. The question here was not if it's dangerous to push the motor(but in that case you did agree higher octane should allow more power) but if the car can run higher boost safely and I believe it can. In my thread the question more to see if anyone was even running meth and if so to find out what was safely being used since it isn't very popular on these cars due to what seems like the lack of information about safety equipment good meth kits utilize.
Take a look at the guage below,
http://www.labontemotorsports.com/st...ow/IFG-10.html
In my opinion The safety features available cover most if not all scenarios to make them equally safe as other methods of achieving high higher octane fuel without the long term cost or continuous consumption. For example you can set the meth to only come on 3 psi before you know your car will run out of fuel.
Anyways, I'm off to work. I'll go into more detail later, I just wanted to see if you were familiar with the equipment available now since these products have only recently come into the market and meth is still maturing(even though it's 70 years old).
Chris
Take a look at the guage below,
http://www.labontemotorsports.com/st...ow/IFG-10.html
In my opinion The safety features available cover most if not all scenarios to make them equally safe as other methods of achieving high higher octane fuel without the long term cost or continuous consumption. For example you can set the meth to only come on 3 psi before you know your car will run out of fuel.
Anyways, I'm off to work. I'll go into more detail later, I just wanted to see if you were familiar with the equipment available now since these products have only recently come into the market and meth is still maturing(even though it's 70 years old).
Chris
Meth helps with cooling intake air as well as cylinder temps (it burns MUCH cooler than gasoline) and also has a high octane rating. You *can* run more boost on methanol but it is risky as if you run out of meth your engine goes boom very quickly, end of story. On nitrous if you run out you would basically not have any extra power but it wouldn't hurt your motor like running out of meth running a high amount of boost. Nitrous also cools but is considered a "power adder" where Meth is not, Meth is more like a tuning tool.
Also, the majority of power gained from Meth comes from advanced timing under boost. You will gain a little power with Meth without timing control but not nearly as much as with timing advance.
IMO from past NA-T's I've done I wouldn't push the envelope on a stock motor too far. You will make more power for awhile but while your running stock compression and trying to turn up the boost you are really asking for trouble. Alot of the cars have experienced rapid ring wear (loss of compression) etc....on Na-T cars from the increased pressure. When you combine high boost with high compression you are really playing with fire. I don't know what your money situation is but it would be a good idea to have some cash stores for tranny work/engine etc...just in case either goes as running Meth/Nitrous/high boost is going to get you into the territory of tranny issues etc...not trying to discourage you, just something to keep on the back burner.
I know you don't want to hear it and you disagree with me, but you are really pushing the envelope by running stock fuel whether that's what other people do or say or not. Just because you *can* run stock fuel doesn't mean it's safe, you can easily approximate the hp/fuel flow of the 2jz motor and at 9psi assuming a healthy motor you should be making around 320hp, for that power level you should be running at least 320cc injectors, the stock injectors are no where near that let alone the pressure capabilities of the stock pump. Just as I mentioned with the Meth, you are leaving yourself no headroom with fuel and if anything was to go wrong (one good overboost for example) you would already be at the threshold of engine damage. The money you use for a nitrous kit or Meth kit could easily get you a bigger pump, a return fuel setup, a regulator and almost a set of injectors. You wouldn't have to worry about running out of fuel anymore, you could run more boost SAFELY and when running race gas you could have enough fuel to support how ever much boost you wanted (reasonably). It gives you alot of benefits and peace of mind as well as the capability to increase performance when your ready (new headgasket etc...).
P.s- If you wanted to be a little more safe, running race gas will give you similar effects to Meth. You will able to turn up the boost etc..but you wont have to worry about a mechanical failure/running out of Meth as your tank will be full of "safe" fuel. I won't say anything else to you about the fuel system but I'm just trying to warn you now, I've seen plenty of cars blow up from being lean and it always sucks for whoever owns it. It's your car, do what you want, but take a few minutes to calculate the fuel requirements to airflow your pushing and you may not be so quick to dismiss proper fueling.
Also, the majority of power gained from Meth comes from advanced timing under boost. You will gain a little power with Meth without timing control but not nearly as much as with timing advance.
IMO from past NA-T's I've done I wouldn't push the envelope on a stock motor too far. You will make more power for awhile but while your running stock compression and trying to turn up the boost you are really asking for trouble. Alot of the cars have experienced rapid ring wear (loss of compression) etc....on Na-T cars from the increased pressure. When you combine high boost with high compression you are really playing with fire. I don't know what your money situation is but it would be a good idea to have some cash stores for tranny work/engine etc...just in case either goes as running Meth/Nitrous/high boost is going to get you into the territory of tranny issues etc...not trying to discourage you, just something to keep on the back burner.
I know you don't want to hear it and you disagree with me, but you are really pushing the envelope by running stock fuel whether that's what other people do or say or not. Just because you *can* run stock fuel doesn't mean it's safe, you can easily approximate the hp/fuel flow of the 2jz motor and at 9psi assuming a healthy motor you should be making around 320hp, for that power level you should be running at least 320cc injectors, the stock injectors are no where near that let alone the pressure capabilities of the stock pump. Just as I mentioned with the Meth, you are leaving yourself no headroom with fuel and if anything was to go wrong (one good overboost for example) you would already be at the threshold of engine damage. The money you use for a nitrous kit or Meth kit could easily get you a bigger pump, a return fuel setup, a regulator and almost a set of injectors. You wouldn't have to worry about running out of fuel anymore, you could run more boost SAFELY and when running race gas you could have enough fuel to support how ever much boost you wanted (reasonably). It gives you alot of benefits and peace of mind as well as the capability to increase performance when your ready (new headgasket etc...).
P.s- If you wanted to be a little more safe, running race gas will give you similar effects to Meth. You will able to turn up the boost etc..but you wont have to worry about a mechanical failure/running out of Meth as your tank will be full of "safe" fuel. I won't say anything else to you about the fuel system but I'm just trying to warn you now, I've seen plenty of cars blow up from being lean and it always sucks for whoever owns it. It's your car, do what you want, but take a few minutes to calculate the fuel requirements to airflow your pushing and you may not be so quick to dismiss proper fueling.
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01-30-09, 04:07 PM
#8
I don't have a lot of time to respond to your entire post right now and while your right in certain way of thinking, meth is not that dangerous if you know what your doing. I have a friend who works at a local shop and runs meth on LOTS of cars he setups up and doesn't ever have any failures. The key is to run the right meth kit with safety features to prevent possible failures. Lets face it, if you overboost no matter what fuel you use to acheive proper air/fuel combustion your not going to like the results. The question here was not if it's dangerous to push the motor(but in that case you did agree higher octane should allow more power) but if the car can run higher boost safely and I believe it can. In my thread the question more to see if anyone was even running meth and if so to find out what was safely being used since it isn't very popular on these cars due to what seems like the lack of information about safety equipment good meth kits utilize.
Take a look at the guage below,
http://www.labontemotorsports.com/st...ow/IFG-10.html
In my opinion The safety features available cover most if not all scenarios to make them equally safe as other methods of achieving high higher octane fuel without the long term cost or continuous consumption. For example you can set the meth to only come on 3 psi before you know your car will run out of fuel.
Anyways, I'm off to work. I'll go into more detail later, I just wanted to see if you were familiar with the equipment available now since these products have only recently come into the market and meth is still maturing(even though it's 70 years old).
Chris
Take a look at the guage below,
http://www.labontemotorsports.com/st...ow/IFG-10.html
In my opinion The safety features available cover most if not all scenarios to make them equally safe as other methods of achieving high higher octane fuel without the long term cost or continuous consumption. For example you can set the meth to only come on 3 psi before you know your car will run out of fuel.
Anyways, I'm off to work. I'll go into more detail later, I just wanted to see if you were familiar with the equipment available now since these products have only recently come into the market and meth is still maturing(even though it's 70 years old).
Chris
I wasn't trying to say Meth doesn't have it's place as it does and personally I like Meth. What I was getting at is that in the case of the OP he is still running a bone stock fuel system, stock pump, stock pressure and stock injectors etc...The money that it would cost to get a decent meth system with failsafe's would be better appropriated to beefing up the fuel system. I'm sure you will agree that running a stock bone stock GS fuel system at 9lbs (or more as he is looking at) is far from ideal or safe on a daily basis. Especially considering the fact that the majority of your Meth gains come from advanced timing, yes you will gain a little bit from running more boost but nothing compared to what you would get with timing control.
Secondly, I don't know if you have ever personally owned a car with a meth kit installed on it and driven it on a long term basis but the pressure trigger they use to spray at a certain point, say 3psi before you run out of fuel as you suggested, is far from consistent. I had a car with meth on it for 3 years and you cannot count on the meth system to trigger perfectly at a set psi every time, triggering it via a dedicated high quality map sensor will help but I don't think he has that option in this case, though I could be wrong. I'm not saying it wont come on at all as it does come on, but the temperature/air density outside has a large effect on the trigger point, especially when your talking about a very narrow window such as 3lbs. The 3 lbs is talking about the difference between 9 and 12psi on a stock motor with stock fuel.
If he had more fuel to spare, larger injectors/higher pressure etc...then IF he overshot by a few psi he would be much safer than running lean, especially with a stock hg/compression. While 3psi doesn't seem like much the increase in cylinder pressure is considerable, enough to make or break an engine very quickly, or a set of rings. It may not look like you are getting a performance increase by doing fuel but you are opening the door for the ability to make more power safely. As I mentioned before, if he upgrades his fuel system he can always run race gas and turn up the boost as far as he wants until he decides he wants Meth/Nitrous. Nitrous at this point is a disaster waiting to happen as he really doesn't have the extra fuel flow to support what he has now, let alone extra fuel for nitrous.
Last edited by macd7919; 01-30-09 at 04:20 PM.
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