projectdna

iTrader: (56)

i think there has been enough demand from the 2is owners. while the f-sport parts are nice, they're certainly/only within the realm of "marginally increased performance."

what we're talking about here is something beyond that.

but regardless, whether most 2is owners can afford it or not is another issue...

TRDFantasy

Hmm, I'm not too sure about that. Has there really been enough actual demand from 2IS owners for aftermarket engine internals like pistons that will lower the compression and allow for boost? Has there been enough demand for reasonable volumes for such aftermarket parts, making it affordable enough for most 2IS owners to be interested?

The bigger question is, has there been enough demand from other Toyota or Lexus owners with cars equipped with a GR V6?

Hypothetically, some of the internals designed for the 2IS would most likely fit in other GR engines on other Toyota/Lexus vehicles.

Personally, I think if there was enough demand several companies already would have put the serious work into it, and would have already designed and released engine internals for the 2IS to allow high boost levels.

projectdna

iTrader: (56)

i would be led to believe that there is enough demand that aftermarket support for the 2is is rather limited. this is especially true compared to the 2is's most direct competitors such as (but not limited to) the g35/g37, the 3-series, and the A4/A5.

my take on the situation is two part:

one, it simply isn't profitable enough for companies to dive into the "bigger things" market for the 2is. as interested as i am, i simply don't have that kind of disposable income lying around, and i'm sure that goes for quite a few 2is owners as well. also, there's a disparate ratio of "pipe dreaming kiddos" to actual, realistic enthusiasts within the 2is owners' group on CL. many of those "pipe deaming kiddos" are also the ones trying to lowball F/S threads on quality aftermarket products, but i digress.

two, mechanically speaking, the 2is isn't friendly to modifications after the bolt-on stage. i think there has been enough discussion on that in the few previous posts.

don't get me wrong; lexus built a great car w/ the 2is, and i look forward to seeing what they have in the works. however, i'm going to take the "wait and see" approach when it comes to aftermarket support for the 2is, seeing as to how so many abandoned ship somewhere between the 1is and the 2is.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

Keep smoking that stuff whatever it is. Without a Lexus presence in a production car based series, there's no real enthusiast base, there's no product development with any kind of racing heritage, and without any ability to change the engine management EVEN IF YOU WANTED A RACE ONLY UNIT, there's nobody willing to drop the necessary coin to make it happen. (BTW, check out Yamaha's website - you can get a fully tuneable aftermarket ECM from Yamaha for your R1 racebike with FACTORY support! Imagine that!)

Let's see...to get a Lexus 2IS race ready what support do we have from Lexus? Nothing. What support do we have from TRD? Nothing. What support do we have from the aftermarket? iCode in Japan, and they're primarily a Porsche focused organization.

Let's go to the enthusiast world, the people who drive their cars at track days. How many Lexus cars have you seen at a NON-Lexus sponsored event? I was the sole Lexus at CMP with Tarheel Z Club. I've been to a couple of others, and guess what? NO Lexus cars. For that matter, NO SUPRAS either.

So, realistically, there's nothing going on for the 2IS, or any other Lexus or even Toyota to add power. Sure you can do wheels all day long, and bigger brakes all day long, but add power? Nope. Nothing but bolt-ons to add 10 - 15% more along with a whole lot more noise and illegal emissions configurations.

This doesn't mean I don't like my F. But I didn't get it expecting I was going to be able to add power to it. I'm a realist because I've already done the full-on NA modification route with a number of other toys I've owned. I know if I can't change the engine's tune - modify ignition timing and fuel delivery - there's not much point in trying to squeeze more power out if the car because it's just going to kill it sooner and abandon one of the biggest reasons I got a Lexus in the first place - reliability.

While you might like to believe F Sport is going to deliver more "good stuff," I've been dealing with TRD's total lack of useful mods since 1989. They can't even get a decent supercharger design out. F Sport is doomed to the same fate - what do they have? Look good, feel good mods that aren't even well sorted out. Why is there a L-SB for the F Sport suspension? Because it clunks. Typical TRD. Half-baked and poorly executed.

So keep dreaming the dream. I'll be watching and laughing. And when I want to buy something I can modify, it won't be anything from Toyota.

TRDFantasy

Wait a minute, since when does "lots of aftermarket parts" equate to "race ready" ?

Lexus had a presence for years in Grand Am, which uses production-based engines.

For 2 years in a row now, Lexus has raced the LFA at the ADAC 24 Hours of Nurburgring race in mostly production trim (this year they had 2 LFAs). Lexus also raced an IS F in this same race two years in a row along with the LFA.

Ok, so you don't like TRD USA, we get it. What would you prefer from Toyota then? Wide parts availability from TRD Japan? You do know those parts will be MUCH more expensive than even current F-Sport parts right? The currency rate and import fees at the very least guarantee that.

Enough of that though, as it is off-topic of my original point.

Getting back to my point, which you seem to have missed, *right now* Toyota and Lexus DO NOT have the image or product among/for enthusiasts in order for them to be commonly seen at track days.

Simple economics, no demand, no reason to have a supply.

If right now there are many Toyota/Lexus owners such as yourself who do not have demand for aftermarket serious performance parts, then why should aftermarket companies make such products?

However, if the image of Toyota and Lexus was much improved among enthusiasts, and if there WAS lots of real demand from REAL Toyota/Lexus owners for serious aftermarket parts, then companies would put in the work to make them, simple as that.

Demand is huge for aftermarket parts for the Supra, so therefore LOTS of companies have made, and continue to make aftermarket parts. Very simple.

Now let's take a future product like the FT-86 Toyota/Subaru sports car. Toyota and Subaru will both have their own versions. Toyota is using a reworked Subaru EJ boxer engine in their car.

How much do you want to bet that the aftermarket for the FT-86 production car will be quite big? The car will be inexpensive, light, RWD, affordable, and will be based on a Subaru boxer. If that's not a recipe for a big aftermarket, I don't know what is. Enthusiast interest right now in the FT-86 is absolutely huge. Lots of people who stopped caring about Toyota long ago are suddenly interested in the FT-86.

If Lexus continues to race the LFA and IS F in mostly production trim at big races like the 24 Hours of Nurburgring race, or if they enter the 24 Hours of Le Mans (or American Le Mans), the image of Toyota will improve among enthusiasts, interest and demand for aftermarket parts for exciting Toyota/Lexus products will increase, and the aftermarket industry (as well as possibly Toyota itself) will put in the effort to satisfy that demand.

You sound like somebody who's bitter at Toyota, and also someone who is out of the loop in terms of what Akio Toyoda's future vision for the company is.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

Nope. I sound like someone who knows you can't get more from an engine without tuning and Toyota's own engineers say, "We don't modify our cars" to some very senior people I know at Toyota when asked about engine modifications.

It's not in their culture, and it's not in their plans. Every other manufacturer from MB to Porsche to BMW to Chevrolet to Ford and Chrysler have ECMs you CAN modify. They build cars people CAN make substantive changes to without resorting to piggybacks or standalones.

Toyota doesn't and won't. It's not in their culture. Even Honda has Hondata - you'd think Toyota would notice the success the Civic has in the tuner community, but no, they'd rather make absolutely certain no one, not even their contractors, get access to tools to allow them to directly tune.

Bitter? Nope. Just facts I've learned over the last 20 years of owning, driving, and modifying Toyota vehicles.

And Toyota - TRD USA or Japan has never offered a single part for a Supra to increase horsepower more than an aftermarket muffler. The only reason they caught on with the aftermarket is because the engine was so overbuilt and capable. It surely wasn't because it was easy to tune.

someboy

iTrader: (6)

i been kind of considering myself a toyota fan, have always wonder why theres so much more honda fans out there but not toyota. i think i know why now >_<!

TRDFantasy

Guess what, Toyota's GR engine is also capable. There is an off-road racing machine that was built in Australia and it is a twin turbo GR V6 setup running 800 HP on the stock block.

There is simply not enough demand for aftermarket companies to make GR parts, however the GR engine is more than capable.

Yes, you've talked enough about Toyota itself, yet you haven't mentioned a single thing about aftermarket companies. Despite the barrier of not being able to tune or modify the Toyota ECM, aftermarket companies still developed a TON of parts for the 1JZ and 2JZ engines. The image was there, the demand was there, the respect for these engines was there from enthusiasts, so aftermarket companies put in the hard work to make it happen.

As for Toyota not offering that many aftermarket parts, for some models they do through their tuning arms TRD Japan and TOM'S.

Look here: http://www.tomsracing.co.jp/e/

Also TOM'S offers some engine tuning and engine management products for quite a few Toyota and Lexus products (not sure exactly what it controls though):

http://www.tomsracing.co.jp/e/product/engine_tec2.htm

Getting back to my point, if there is enough REAL demand from REAL enthusiasts willing to pay REAL money for aftermarket products for their Toyota engines, then aftermarket companies WILL provide the product.

Also don't forget Toyota's 3S-GE (and 3S-GTE) engine has quite a big aftermarket as well.

The aftermarket for UZ engines right now is growing as well.

four o two

iTrader: (1)

TRDFantasy, the demand for the 2JZ came from its ease of adding power and the fact that it was over-engineered like a **** from the factory. Intake, downpipe, exhaust +6psi of boost saw > 100rwhp increase over stock. The GR platform does not share these same characteristics. You can say it does all day until you're blue in the face. You'll NEVER net 100+rwhp for under 2 grand with a 2nd gen IS, ever. Period. Dot.

The history of big power Supras really didn't start taking off until the late late 90's and into the 2000's, years after the platform was introduced. You think I'm gonna sit here for 6 years and hold my breath, expecting the same results for the ISx50 platform? (hint: the answer is no) Comparing the old Supra's ECM to the new ISx50 ECM is apples to oranges man, not even going there.

You are correct in the fact that if the demand is there, anything and everything is possible... but are incorrect in your assumption that the enthusiast market for the 2nd IS scene is anything other than dwindling and headed by a ricer mentality 9 times out of 10. If you think otherwise, check the performance sections of this site for any useful information other than how to install a CAI and which springs are "mad JDM tyte" for that "hella flush" look. Two completely different camps headed by two extremely dichotomic mentalities towards true performance.

TRDFantasy

Huh?

I never "assumed" anything about enthusiast or aftermarket demand for the 2IS. If anything, I said that the demand DOES NOT EXIST for genuine performance parts for the 2IS.

I won't argue about the GR with you, I agree with most of what you said. My point is though, IF there were parts like pistons to lower the GR's CR to something like 9:1, THEN and ONLY THEN would we see just HOW much the GR could handle boost, and exactly WHAT kind of gains you could get from intake, downpipe, exhaust, and boost.

It's pointless even talking about the GR until there are aftermarket parts to dramatically lower it's compression ratio.

All I merely mentioned is the possibility exists. That GR setup in that Australian off-road buggy, well those guys got a bit of help from TRD actually. I also know on that twin turbo GR setup they are running some aftermarket pistons among other things which lowered the compression ratio a lot.

The JZ *stock* has a low compression ratio to begin with. In terms of modding and potential, the GR is simply one step behind the JZ with it's high compression ratio.

All I'm saying is you cannot definitively and conclusively talk about the GR's potential unless you have solid proof of what gains are possible on a low-CR GR engine.

Imagine for example if someone like JUN made pistons for the GR, and which lowered the CR quite a bit. Then we would be able to see the true potential of the GR block itself.

I agree though that lowering the GR's compression ratio is an extra hurdle compared to an engine like a 4A-GE, 3S, or JZ engine.

projectdna

iTrader: (56)

the GR motor may be capable, and the possibility exists, but where is the factory/aftermarket support above and beyond bolt-ons?

i say, start with unlocking the USDM ECU, and let the good times roll.

TRDFantasy

The aftermarket support will be there once demand is high enough .

projectdna

iTrader: (56)

you may believe that "if they come, we will build it," but fellow enthusiasts and i think it should be the other way around - and quoting Field of Dreams:

"if they build it, we will come."

if a considerable portion of 2is owners are willing to put down good money for rims + tires, suspension, body kits, big brake kits, and other bolt-on performance items, what else does toyota and/or aftermarket companies need to see in order to determine that there is a demand? it is already there, and it is still untapped to date. are we supposed to be patient and hope for something to happen? it's already four model years going on five, and we've seen ZERO support from toyota other than "f-sport". btw, with all due respect, imo f-sport products doesn't do that much better than what other aftermarket companies have offered to date, as f-sport parts are exactly that - rebadged products from other aftermarket companies.

if smaller, independent companies are willing to expend significant time and effort on R&D for quality aftermarket products, even if toyota leverages a small, miniscule percentage of its resources it's still several times greater than what those smaller companies are putting in. granted, we're a fickle niche market with limited disposable income, and our tastes are constantly changing, but c'mon... f-sport?

i understand that you are an obvious, staunch supporter of toyota/lexus/TRD/f-sport, and i wonder if you're just an enthusiast's enthusiast or if you have more ties to the aforementioned brands than i'm led to believe, but i digress... anyways, if the 2is community is going to be paid the bare minimum amount of lip service, then expect this type of criticism and attitude from the owners' and enthusiasts' community.

again, "if they build it, we will come."

TRDFantasy

Well then, in that case all we can do is wait and see. As the image of Toyota and thier brands improves, we shall see how the aftermarket responds. It appears quite clear that Toyota directly is hesistant to offer substantial performance parts.

aliu603

iTrader: (18)

here here projectdna