lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

This is complete and total hogwash. A GENERATOR uses a fixed magnet. An ALTERNATOR uses a field coil in place of the fixed magnet, and the current through the coil is regulated to fix the output of the alternator. There are three secondary (stator) coils which is where the output is induced, those three coils are rectified and combined to produce the 14.4v we get from the alternator but only because the field coil in the middle has its current adjusted by the regulator to ensure we never exceed 14.4v.

No modern automobile has a generator in it. Not one.

kannon

iTrader: (1)

Do you have a link to this explained in technical terms? id love to read up on this. and im being serious.specifically the hotter air being better during normal driving conditions.

06isDriver

I thought we already cleared up the fact that I only care about WOT? I've already agreed that warmer air is more efficient at partial throttle.

You must have missed that point while writing your wall of text.

A little power is better than no power. AND, like I previously stated in another post, I have built what will be known as the best aftermarket intake you could have for the IS line because of this search for the unattainable.

If we all believed as you, with your theories and cold and hard facts (as YOU know them) humanity would have never discovered the atom. You cant see it.

We would never know what lies beyond our own earth if it hadnt been for someone saying there's something more. If I could see just that much further....if I can squeeze just that much more out of this machine.

Has it been fiscally feasible?
no

Did it come together quickly?
no

Would I trade it for anything else?
NO

so PLEASE, if you dont like what I'm trying to accomplish, you can leave the thread and never say another word.

PS - I FULLY understand how the electrical system in a modern vehicle WORKS. I WILL BE REQUIRING THE ADDITIONAL AMPERAGE, AND IT WILL HAPPILY PROVIDE.

PPS - A turbocharger may also be used to increase fuel efficiency without any attempt to increase power. It does this by recovering waste energy in the exhaust and feeding it back into the engine intake. By using this otherwise wasted energy to increase the mass of air it becomes easier to ensure that all fuel is burnt before being vented at the start of the exhaust stage. The increased temperature from the higher pressure gives a higher carnot efficiency. Additionally, a higher pressure differential means that less work is required from the valve train so reducing parasitic losses slightly. -- from the wiki

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&h...2bf32b5c0e0691

Seriously - it's pretty simple. Any of these articles cover the subject, it's not a mystery.

Backyard tuners think "I want my engine to run cooler" not realizing by doing this they're going to ruin the efficiency. An engine needs to be fully heat soaked to get the most out of it. If it didn't matter, we wouldn't bother with thermostats, or calculating resident times for coolant, or a million other things you need to understand before you start mucking about with someone else's good design. But don't listen to me, I've only been doing this for the last 40 years or so. Read the Laws of Thermodynamics, and it should gel for you pretty quickly.

If it still doesn't gel, do some research into compression ignition engines (diesel), and it should REALLY make sense pretty quickly.

Believe me, I used to think the same faulty stuff until I had some old codger Diesel mechanic tell me how dumb I was. I did the homework, learned enough of the physics to understand what I needed, and changed my whole view of how it all works.

kannon

iTrader: (1)

while turbos arent more efficient than na(and how could they be? your forcing the engine to spin a turbine as well as the wheels, plus it has to suck the air through an intercooler), they will make more power from a smaller displacement engine. but you pay for it with using more gas.

you say afr doesnt matter, is what your saying that the ecu is only going to put x amount of air in at a certain throttle position, so when the air is colder it lets in a smaller volume to each cylinder? and when warmer a larger volume? so that always the same amount of oxygen is making it into the cylinder?

and he isnt trying to beat the second law(or i hope not... he would be a billionaire if he beat the second law). the second law wont be beaten and i assume he realizes that. the way i was thinking about it was the engine let in a set volume of air per throttle position and thus it would add more gas due to it being denser. and so more chemical energy would be added to offset the stronger magnetic force being placed on the alternator. but if you answer to my above paragraph is that it is based upon molecules and not volume then this doesnt make sense anymore.

thanks for taking the time to answer

06isDriver

my point still stands that the parasitic losses from the operation of the spinning rotor assembly increase as engine rpm increases because of the static nature of the drive belt.

Also, why is it they often call the rectifier assembly the "heat sink"? Because the diodes that are connected to it cause heat build up from what???

wasted electricty...your turn.

You are also forgetting about the energy necessary to turn the fan thats cools the rectifier. OMG, I'm finding parasitic losses all over.

And why do you keep going on and on about efficiency at partial throttle? You do know it has on off switch right? I can just turn it off, if I plan crusin down the interstate.

Or I can leave it on while I road race all day long. I like to call it, "THE ON/OFF SWITCH".

It's catchy, I know.

kannon

iTrader: (1)

thank you i have studied thermodynamics and physics quite a lot. wikipedia is not going to add anything to my knowledge. we both seem to understand that you want the hot temperature to be high and your exhaust temperature to be low for the best efficiency. now if we have colder air, we can put in more gas, and i bet with more gas in there the temperature will be hotter than if we just put hot air and less gas in. heating up air is very easy and not much energy contained in it, while gas contains a lot of energy. so im betting the extra gas that can be added due to cold air contains more energy than hot air.

no one said anything about an engine running cooler. and having colder air coming in certainly is not going to cool down the hunk of metal that is an engine to any measurable degree. we simply want colder air so we can have a higher Qin

kannon

iTrader: (1)

yes there is a lot of wasted energy from our engines. its why they are so inefficient. and just look at all that energy we vent out the side of the engine as hot exhaust gas.
and adding more electrical strain on the system will cause the alternator to work harder and make the system less efficient. but if more gas is added to the system to account for being able to fit more oxygen into the chamber then you will make more power.

on a serious note i love what your doing. putting as much effort and drive as you have into this is freaking awesome. and i cant wait to see what you end up with.

06isDriver

thank you, I actually appreciate this exchange of dialog with MOST members. Please forgive me if I come off defensively. I often find myself in that position.

Usually, the conversations are courteous and insightful......usually.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

No your point is pointless. You don't understand how an alternator works and the parasitic losses you describe are just plain silly. There is no "waste energy" in an alternator, only typically losses from internal resistance. There are NO parallels to how a turbocharger works at all.

If there's no electrical load on the alternator it takes very little effort to spin it. You should try spinning one off the car sometime to see how little resistance there is. Then apply power to it with a load and see just how hard it is to turn...

Why do I talk about part throttle efficiency? Because that's where 99% of all operation happens. If you really wanted to do us a favor, you'd heat the air at part throttle, and cool it at WOT the way Smokey Yunick's "adiabatic engine" did in the 1980s.

And despite your claims no one has done this since the Otto cycle engine was invented, you're quite wrong. Many have tried, all have failed - the last one was using the A/C compressor, only on at WOT, and it never worked well enough to show an improvement in an NA application. This system has less energy state changes than the setup you're using so if anything were going to be successful, this would be it.

06isDriver

Ok, you know what, you've totally convinced me to stop what I've been working on for over a year and a half.

Oh wait, no you didn't, and you aren't going to. The work will continue as I intend so you can either suck it up and allow me to spend my money and my time as I wish or you can just stop whining like a little girl about how this will never work.

Also you've no idea what my actual goals were. I intended to build an intake that looked better and performed better than anything on the market. I guarantee it will do so in the coming dyno tests.

So just stop complaining and enjoy the ride. You are seriously too uptight.

06isDriver

how can you say that the losses from the rectifier are silly? It "regulates" the amount of voltage going to the rest of the system. What do you think it does with the extra juice when it needs to dump it off?

It sends it to those diodes. The diodes in turn heat up and dissipate that energy into the atmosphere by the heat sink design of the rectifier assembly. For such a smart guy, I dont see why you cant see that energy is being wasted by being turned into heat.

kannon

iTrader: (1)

the rectifier is what converts the ac current of the alternator into dc current. and it isnt 100 percent efficient so it heats up. the regulator is what regulates the power output of the alternator. it attempts to keep the system steady at around 14.2 volts, it does this by changing the magnetic field strength of the alternator, a higher magnetic field strength makes the alternator work harder and produce more power. it doesnt make extra juice because the regulator regulates it to make the correct amount.

so in essence you are making the engine work harder if you take electricity from the system. but if you can cram cooler air into the engine, more gas will be added that will more than make up for the loss of power from draining electricity. so not more efficient, but more power. and i like more power.

btw any comparisons between your non-powered intake and the fsport in terms of sound and intake temperatures? and are you still planning on working on the powered version? if so out of pure curiosity what type of heat exchanger are you using? and have you done much optimization on your heat exchanger? makes a big difference to get that right.

kannon

iTrader: (1)

Smokey Yunick does not cool the air at full throttle. that would go against the idea of his engine. and the idea is to get the intake air/fuel mixture as hot as possible by using the exhaust heat to heat the intake mixture, thereby recovering otherwise wasted energy. now it may not have gotten as hot at full throttle since you would be running the intake air/fuel through the heat exchangers faster and thus the intake temps wouldnt be as hot. also his engine was awesome because it achieved far higher combustion temperatues than other engines. another important point is when the intake air/fuel mixture was heated it was not allowed to expand. otherwise it wouldnt have produced as much power.

06isDriver

Yes, more power has always been the goal.

But to answer your questions, I've never seen or heard the f-sport in person. I've only experimented with open air filter designs and the stock intake. But from what I understand, the f-sport is a combo of the stock design + joez + some holes in the lower box.

The stock design is probably the best you'll get as far as blocking out heat goes. That was my major gripe with all these insanely overpriced intakes that were open air cone filters. You were literally sucking in directly hot engine air. Sure, a person could get a pretty sweet sound out of it but that wasnt enough for me.

So, my current design is currently being tested between full hood seal and a 3/4 hood seal with it exposed to the front. I'm trying to find the absolute most perfect combination of killer sound and highly respectable heat shielding.

During my initial tests, the stock intake would consistently perform at about 6 degrees above ambient temps at a 60mph roll. Idle is a whole nother story. Temperatures will skyrocket for any intake I tested. Obviously the open air filters did much worse in these tests.

My design ALSO keeps the intake temps about 4-6 degrees above ambient AS WELL AS giving you that beautiful engine noise we've grown to love from the open cone filters.

I have a full exhaust so I found it difficult to hear the intake under the full hood seal. I'm sure that even then though, it would sound as good or better than the fsport for someone with stock exhaust.

So, it looks like final version will be that of a 3/4 seal for multiple reasons. The full hood seal, while technically the best for heat shielding, didnt give me the same feeling a person gets when you hear a pure open air cone filter. And, likewise, the 3/4 seal didnt have much effect on heat, I think, because of it frontward facing "opening". While the car is moving, it actually acts like another scoop for air to enter because it crests JUST over the stock front plastic cover.

While the car is at idle, though, theres not much you can do about it. Even the fully enclosed stock intake would have its temperatures start to climb. So, I think it is what it is now.

As far as the heat exchanger goes, I wholeheartedly agree that the evaporator design is absolutely critical. Not only does the intake pipe itself serve as barrier/evaporator but I also have this aerodynamic piece that can be installed inside of the intake to "force" the air around it and have it exchange heat that way as well. I have not tested this piece though. The tests I was running always seemed to indicate that the intake cooling itself was enough. I didnt want to introduce any obstacle or turbulence into the system unless I had to.

Although, I have a feeling that at WOT the air will pass through the intake with minimal heat exchange UNLESS i install that "inside the intake" exchanger.