Information on AC/Heat with full standalone.
10-08-20, 01:33 PM
#1
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Information on AC/Heat with full standalone.
Not sure if this is the right section to post but.
I'm sure there's maybe a little info on the forums about this, but I'm trying to research for a Turbo build I plan on starting in a few months that I know its gonna be a large amount of work if 2020 doesn't throw another curveball. But due to various reasons, I decided I wanted to go full standalone with my daily 1999 gs300 and try my best to keep heat and ac, and from what research I've done I've found out there will be no dash, heat, AC, and no radio.
No dash and no Radio are easy fixes since radio just needs switched power and speaker wire and I'm going with a haltech digital dash unless I decided to swap to another brand of standalone and heat you just push the blend door up and turn the fan on.
But the area I live in is 100+ Fahrenheit in summer some days and can get down to 5 Fahrenheit in the winter some times lower. so both heat and ac are needed and I personally would like to keep the stock set up for the most part I don't mind getting rid of the dash controls though I just wanna keep stock under the dash so I don't have to go with the expensive universal setups.
I know in theory I could just hardwire some switches to actuate the blend door motors to switch between heat and AC and turn on the ac compressor and such which is one of the options I had in mind but I'm trying to see if there is possibly a better ways and so on.
I've also found some controllers From vintage air and Dakota digital that may or may not work. if anyone has tried any of them info would be great.
Also trying to gather more info from people that's done full standalone builds to figure out what other roadblocks I may run into. and what things won't work without stock ECU.
I'm sure there's maybe a little info on the forums about this, but I'm trying to research for a Turbo build I plan on starting in a few months that I know its gonna be a large amount of work if 2020 doesn't throw another curveball. But due to various reasons, I decided I wanted to go full standalone with my daily 1999 gs300 and try my best to keep heat and ac, and from what research I've done I've found out there will be no dash, heat, AC, and no radio.
No dash and no Radio are easy fixes since radio just needs switched power and speaker wire and I'm going with a haltech digital dash unless I decided to swap to another brand of standalone and heat you just push the blend door up and turn the fan on.
But the area I live in is 100+ Fahrenheit in summer some days and can get down to 5 Fahrenheit in the winter some times lower. so both heat and ac are needed and I personally would like to keep the stock set up for the most part I don't mind getting rid of the dash controls though I just wanna keep stock under the dash so I don't have to go with the expensive universal setups.
I know in theory I could just hardwire some switches to actuate the blend door motors to switch between heat and AC and turn on the ac compressor and such which is one of the options I had in mind but I'm trying to see if there is possibly a better ways and so on.
I've also found some controllers From vintage air and Dakota digital that may or may not work. if anyone has tried any of them info would be great.
Also trying to gather more info from people that's done full standalone builds to figure out what other roadblocks I may run into. and what things won't work without stock ECU.
10-09-20, 07:19 AM
#2
First off, I'll say if there's a way found, I too would be happy to ditch the factory ECU. I'm piggy backed with a Haltech via a Boomslang harness. But, I guess the question is why, particularly for a daily, is it worth it for you to ditch the stock ECU that effectively controls all these components and more? It feels like more work to go that route if you want to maintain the creature comforts of the car. Good luck to you in your quest, and if you find a viable way forward, I'd be interested to hear more.
10-09-20, 09:11 AM
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The biggest reason is i just think that the piggyback setup isn't 100% reliable whereas a full standalone will be one system controlling everything which should be more reliable plus no telling when I might decide to go for crazy power and end up having to switch full standalone anyway.
Plus my current engine harness has seen better days tbh. I have all the knowledge to repin all the broken connectors and or even remake the harness but my thoughts about doing the much work is its just better to go standalone then doing that work or trying to find someone selling a perfect harness.
Plus my current engine harness has seen better days tbh. I have all the knowledge to repin all the broken connectors and or even remake the harness but my thoughts about doing the much work is its just better to go standalone then doing that work or trying to find someone selling a perfect harness.
10-09-20, 04:56 PM
#4
The biggest reason is i just think that the piggyback setup isn't 100% reliable whereas a full standalone will be one system controlling everything which should be more reliable plus no telling when I might decide to go for crazy power and end up having to switch full standalone anyway.
Letting the factory computers handle non-powertrain tasks is by far the easiest strategy. Use whatever you want for engine management, your HVAC doesn't need to know.
10-09-20, 07:45 PM
#5
Why not use the tried and true AEM Infinity 506 ECU? It's a full stand alone that also uses the factory ecu for all the other functions to work. I'm using one and still have all my radio and HVAC functions. Using the Boomslang p&p harness as well.
10-10-20, 04:23 PM
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And the whole reason I prefer haltech is that I found a tuner that was recommended to me he prefers haltech and or ms3. he knows AEM but i want to go with something he's most comfortable with and so on.
Another thing i still need to figure out is with boomslang harness where does the piggybacked ecu sit? from what I've seen just from previews of the piggyback harness its super-short and i want to try and clean up the engine bay and not have to modify ecu box or anything. if someone could post pics of how it sits with boomslang harness would be great. and any info on piggyback and e85.
10-11-20, 07:27 AM
#7
I think you're still not understanding. They're not talking about piggyback tuners, they're talking about using a stand-alone engine management in conjuction with the stock computers. Aftermarket engine management runs the engine, stock computers run the rest of the car.
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10-11-20, 04:15 PM
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I think you're still not understanding. They're not talking about piggyback tuners, they're talking about using a stand-alone engine management in conjuction with the stock computers. Aftermarket engine management runs the engine, stock computers run the rest of the car.
From what I've gathered is most piggyback or mostly boomslang just manipulates the stock ECU into thinking everything is running fine which is gonna be perfect for me at first because I'm only gonna push 450 to the wheels for a while since I'm gonna try and keep the stock a430e for a little bit since built ones cost quite a bit.
i will be honest I don't have much knowledge of the whole piggyback systems setup since I normally deal with older cars.
10-12-20, 05:45 AM
#9
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As far as i think I understand.
A piggyback will alter inputs to the ecu to sorta fool the ecu
for example say you get one that only handkes airflow.
normally the airflow senor will adhust the say 5volt input to a .5 to 4.5 volt oytput to the ecu.
Based ob that voltage the ecu will use as a piece if data cimbined with say TPS position ambient temp coolant temp etc to determibe an injector pulse.
By using a piggy back, the output to thd afm will still br 5bvolt but you will have some sort of adjustability to modify the output. Like +- say 10% in 2% increments so the ecu eill get a modified or altered input so it can do its work.
I can go on and on but simply imagine a piggy back now for airflow and ignition and say even traction control all ib one. Just an imaginary combo.
So in yhd end a PB modifies thd inputs to thd ecu to fool it.
think of an fcd or sld as two piggybacks fof specific purposes az they are simple and use only a few eires to accomplish what they do. Somd PBs likd greddy e manage will have of be best connected with a boomslang for simplicity.
Maybe Slow or True or other veterans can add or correct me but I hope i have it right
A piggyback will alter inputs to the ecu to sorta fool the ecu
for example say you get one that only handkes airflow.
normally the airflow senor will adhust the say 5volt input to a .5 to 4.5 volt oytput to the ecu.
Based ob that voltage the ecu will use as a piece if data cimbined with say TPS position ambient temp coolant temp etc to determibe an injector pulse.
By using a piggy back, the output to thd afm will still br 5bvolt but you will have some sort of adjustability to modify the output. Like +- say 10% in 2% increments so the ecu eill get a modified or altered input so it can do its work.
I can go on and on but simply imagine a piggy back now for airflow and ignition and say even traction control all ib one. Just an imaginary combo.
So in yhd end a PB modifies thd inputs to thd ecu to fool it.
think of an fcd or sld as two piggybacks fof specific purposes az they are simple and use only a few eires to accomplish what they do. Somd PBs likd greddy e manage will have of be best connected with a boomslang for simplicity.
Maybe Slow or True or other veterans can add or correct me but I hope i have it right
10-12-20, 07:35 AM
#10
Yeah but is that even possible without causing multiple issues? do you just strip the harness down and use standalone to run the engine and just send power to ECU so that it can control the basic HVAC and comfort stuff?
From what I've gathered is most piggyback or mostly boomslang just manipulates the stock ECU into thinking everything is running fine which is gonna be perfect for me at first because I'm only gonna push 450 to the wheels for a while since I'm gonna try and keep the stock a430e for a little bit since built ones cost quite a bit.
i will be honest I don't have much knowledge of the whole piggyback systems setup since I normally deal with older cars.
From what I've gathered is most piggyback or mostly boomslang just manipulates the stock ECU into thinking everything is running fine which is gonna be perfect for me at first because I'm only gonna push 450 to the wheels for a while since I'm gonna try and keep the stock a430e for a little bit since built ones cost quite a bit.
i will be honest I don't have much knowledge of the whole piggyback systems setup since I normally deal with older cars.
However, due to the nature of the ECU in a GS driving many systems from it's ECU beyond the engine and transmission, piggybacking a full standalone engine management system, such as an AEM 506, Haltech Elite, etc., to drive the engine (and sometimes transmission) functions is common. The harness, in my case, a Boomslang, takes signal wires from the car's harness and then either splits them for shared usage or diverts them to the Haltech ECU. Most of the sensor signals are shared - I get it at the Haltech and also the car's ECU continues to receive and use it for functions it needs. For example, my Aristo ECU is still driving my transmission and operating the drive by wire. But outputs like the fuel injection and ignition are no longer driven by the car's ECU. These signals are 100% driven by my Haltech. And in this way, there's not a condition created whereby the 2 ECUs are sending or manipulating data over the same signal. The stock ECU controls things that the Haltech won't - such as gauges, HVAC, cruise control, ABS, etc. and the Haltech runs the engine without interference.
In either case of a piggy-back, whether you're manipulating just a few signals of the stock ECU or you're taking over full control of the engine with a full stand-alone piggy-backed to the ECU, it makes a lot of sense to retain the stock ECU for continued functionality of the numerous other components/systems.
10-12-20, 10:40 AM
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The lingo can be a little confusing here. "Piggyback" is a rather generic term. And yes there are systems out there that manipulate a small discrete number of signals/functions. Such as an S-AFC, FI/C, etc. And for your 450 hp goal, you might be fine with such a system and save a lot of dough and hassle. I haven't gone that route, so can't speak to it.
However, due to the nature of the ECU in a GS driving many systems from it's ECU beyond the engine and transmission, piggybacking a full standalone engine management system, such as an AEM 506, Haltech Elite, etc., to drive the engine (and sometimes transmission) functions is common. The harness, in my case, a Boomslang, takes signal wires from the car's harness and then either splits them for shared usage or diverts them to the Haltech ECU. Most of the sensor signals are shared - I get it at the Haltech and also the car's ECU continues to receive and use it for functions it needs. For example, my Aristo ECU is still driving my transmission and operating the drive by wire. But outputs like the fuel injection and ignition are no longer driven by the car's ECU. These signals are 100% driven by my Haltech. And in this way, there's not a condition created whereby the 2 ECUs are sending or manipulating data over the same signal. The stock ECU controls things that the Haltech won't - such as gauges, HVAC, cruise control, ABS, etc. and the Haltech runs the engine without interference.
In either case of a piggy-back, whether you're manipulating just a few signals of the stock ECU or you're taking over full control of the engine with a full stand-alone piggy-backed to the ECU, it makes a lot of sense to retain the stock ECU for continued functionality of the numerous other components/systems.
However, due to the nature of the ECU in a GS driving many systems from it's ECU beyond the engine and transmission, piggybacking a full standalone engine management system, such as an AEM 506, Haltech Elite, etc., to drive the engine (and sometimes transmission) functions is common. The harness, in my case, a Boomslang, takes signal wires from the car's harness and then either splits them for shared usage or diverts them to the Haltech ECU. Most of the sensor signals are shared - I get it at the Haltech and also the car's ECU continues to receive and use it for functions it needs. For example, my Aristo ECU is still driving my transmission and operating the drive by wire. But outputs like the fuel injection and ignition are no longer driven by the car's ECU. These signals are 100% driven by my Haltech. And in this way, there's not a condition created whereby the 2 ECUs are sending or manipulating data over the same signal. The stock ECU controls things that the Haltech won't - such as gauges, HVAC, cruise control, ABS, etc. and the Haltech runs the engine without interference.
In either case of a piggy-back, whether you're manipulating just a few signals of the stock ECU or you're taking over full control of the engine with a full stand-alone piggy-backed to the ECU, it makes a lot of sense to retain the stock ECU for continued functionality of the numerous other components/systems.
10-13-20, 07:10 AM
#12
and I had planned to do a coil pack conversion and bigger injectors since my realistic end goal is 650hp which will probably end up going higher to the wheels Just keeping it tame at 450-500 till I can figure out trans and rear end solutions since I want it to be mostly street but be able to hold up on a track or drag strip
10-13-20, 05:43 PM
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If it's supported by your standalone ECU, yes. I'm currently running E85 and however much boost I dare.
Definitely not a problem. I would expect any standalone ECU is capable of driving injectors and ignition coils. But do your research. Again, the stock ECU will have nothing to do with injection system or ignition system in the context we're discussing here. I'm not sure when the stock coils are done, but I'm currently ~ 450-500 RWHP with no issues.
Definitely not a problem. I would expect any standalone ECU is capable of driving injectors and ignition coils. But do your research. Again, the stock ECU will have nothing to do with injection system or ignition system in the context we're discussing here. I'm not sure when the stock coils are done, but I'm currently ~ 450-500 RWHP with no issues.
10-13-20, 07:05 PM
#14
The harness is long. I put mine in the OEM battery location because I moved mine to the trunk. Harness reaches with more length to spare. So you can mount it wherever you want.
10-13-20, 08:00 PM
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Alright Thanks!, looks like I might just end up making a new custom harness for the motor and moving the stock ecu maybe to clean up the engine bay and running piggyback. i would love to go full stand alone and may eventually someday if I decide to try and reverse engineer the whole HVAC system or run universal but from what I've gathered it it will be alot of work and it seems I can get to my power levels safe and without reliability issues for the most part on a piggyback.