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I'm starting to have doubts about my choice of fuel pump . One week from dyno day and considering putting it on hold to swap for another pump. Well, the same pump but without the check valve. I went with the Ti-Auto F90000285 (525lph) when I started modding my hanger. But I realized that a check valve doesn't do much for a return fuel system since pressure bleeds off though the regulator/return line. I bought it hoping for better/faster startups. But I wired my pump to run with key on so it primes before cranking anyway. I'm considering the F90000295 which is the same pump but no check valve. This is a way more important factor that you might think considering the power figures I'm after. Unlike the dual or triple pump setups used for these high power builds, I am relying on just one pump that will be getting pretty much maxed out. It will be the limiting factor for my build. The tuner will be getting out of it what the fuel system will support basically. And the check valve is a flow inhibitor when it gets to needing max volume. This could make the difference of up to 100whp from what I understand talking to several sources if you really are maxing out the pump.
My dilemma is: I have a goal of 800whp. My engine is built to handle 1200hp. So anything above 800whp is what I'm after from my setup (knowing it won't be much more because of my fuel system). It's $650 for a day of tuning. But it's only it's $200 for another pump. If I just leave this one alone, go in for tuning and I'm happy with the result, it will be $650. If I fail to hit my mark, and I mean sorely under 800whp, It will be the new pump and scheduling for another dyno tune making it a total of $1,500 to accomplish my goal.
The more I research the pumps, the less faith I have in them is all. They claim to be 900hp safe for N/A engines. And a little less for turbo applications, but now some sources are saying it will only go up to 700hp safely for turbos. Back when I started this build the general consensus was that it would do well into the 800's. Basically with this information I'm wishing I at least had the non-check valved pump to maximize the potential. Unless I'm just really tripping myself, anyone else feel that the pump should be changed? It may make the power I'm after according to other sources I've researched. But it's been over a year since then.
I can't tell you if the check valve will be what makes or breaks your goal of 800whp. But falling short of your goal is the worst case scenario, because your tuner won't (shouldn't) push your car past what it can fuel.
$200 seems minimal in the grand scheme of things, if you absolutely need to see that 800 number, to the point where you would not settle and you would actually go back until you hit it.
This question comes from actual ignorance: are there specs available that compare actual throughput of the two versions of the fuel pump? Is the difference substantial enough that it would definitely be the defining factor if you were pumping at max duty and did fall short?
I agree with firelizard - you may be over thinking this, but if you want to be safe, now is the time. You stated you already know the fuel pump will be the limiting factor.
I wouldn't be worried so much about not reaching your goal, but the engine running lean. It's not like the good old days where a smaller carburetor limited HP, but could still deliver the correct A/F ratio.
This is a comparison of (power supporting estimates) that RealStreet performance did and placed in a chart. Down a the bottom you see the 285 specs (which look good according to this). But they didn't have a 295 to test. If it's accurate, it should cover my goal. But I don't know where these claims are based in. There are too many factors in different engines that determine the efficiency of a pump.
Another good read from Aeromotive: https://aeromotiveinc.com/fuel-pumps-and-horsepower/
I think either way, the 295 would have been a better option (which I'm not even sure was available when I started buying parts from my build). I'll probably be happy with the power the car makes, but knowing it would probably have made more on the 295 might bother me.. I wanted to have the best single pump I could possibly get at the time. But the swap is much more difficult now than in a stock hanger. I don't know if it's really worth it. Lets say I hit my goal of 800whp, but would have hit 900 just as easy, or even 1000 with enough pump. I have internals rated for 1200hp after all. I just don't know any real figures on how different these two pumps really are. All I know is the 295 can outflow the 285 because the lack of check valve, and that can possibly leave up to 100hp on the table. However, 800 is my goal and I'll be happy if it hits that on the 285. Reason being is that's what my transmission is rated to. Anything past that is asking for trouble according to the builder. Then it's multiple thousands on a T56 or some strong manual trans. I'm done dumping money into this thing for a while. Just need the tune to go well and the trans to hold together lol.
So that being said. Do you think I need the 295 to make 800whp? Or does it look like I'll be good on the 285? Just to many numbers out there and hard to say if it has the flow I need.
So this is a timely thread. I literally purchased a 90000295 pump earlier today. In fact I hopped on here to PM you about a fitting I'm trying to track down that I think you sourced successfully. I went with the 295 without the check valve for the same reasons you are considering it - it's a key-on situation for my pump to activate and flows materially more. Based on this article from radium, the 295 will flow MORE fuel than the 90000285 at LESS amperage at a given pressure. This is a great thing, and worth it to me. Eventually, I expect to turn the 295 into my secondary pump, relying on one of my two 340s for my primary / start / cruise. Thereby, perhaps having the best of both worlds.
Scan down to the bottom of that article to see their flow test results. At 40PSI, the 295 is flowing 15% more fuel at 25% (4) fewer amps than the 285.
With all this said - I think your tuner should be able to get you a very solid baseline on the 285 that should work for an additional 15% fuel. The tuner should be scaling your VE map beyond your strict logged/utilized perimeter for the sake of safety and general variability of conditions. The 295 will not change your VE map or turn your car into a different beast than the 285. I think it will eek you out a bit more power. I also wouldn't be surprised if you shared this with your tuner (might be worth call him) and presented the case - he'd probably help a brother out after the fact with the new pump to check logs and validate that everything is still on point.
Yes after all my late findings I wish I'd have gone with the 295. It is the one to go with for return style systems whereas the 285 I assume is for dead head systems for keeping up pressure for faster startups etc. But oh well, at this point I'm just going to go with it. It's still one hell of a pump. Just hope I don't regret it. Tuning day is this coming Monday! Wish me luck guys.
Yes after all my late findings I wish I'd have gone with the 295. It is the one to go with for return style systems whereas the 285 I assume is for dead head systems for keeping up pressure for faster startups etc. But oh well, at this point I'm just going to go with it. It's still one hell of a pump. Just hope I don't regret it. Tuning day is this coming Monday! Wish me luck guys.
Good luck and enjoy the day! Please report back... :-)
Well since the car wasn't able to be tuned yet I think I'm going to get the PHR hanger and two of the non-check-valved 295 (525lph) pumps with the P&P dual harness kit. I am tired of having to wonder what is up to snuff or not on this build. Luckily my feed and return line should screw right onto it. Looks to be the same inlets and outlets I customized in my oem hanger. The tuner seemed to think the one pump would only work for around 600whp and my injectors would only reach around 60% DC. So I want to put two of these monsters in and really be able to turn things up. I also have doubt's about the ability of the jet valve to siphon fuel over from the other side of the saddle tank. This is supposed to come with a jet valve dialed in for that operation. If not I have a nice Radium one I wasn't able to make work on the OEM hanger. But at least I feel like all areas will be covered now. If I go this route I should be able to safely make into the 1000+hp area and hit my at least 800whp goal.
I had a thought that I want opinions on. I still can set up the hanger/fuel delivery however I want. Haven't ordered anything. But I have been researching about how it's better to run a small pump for a daily driver since not all the fuel is needed most of the time, meaning staged pumps etc. as we know.
So in an effort to have a car that is easier to tune for better low speed manners, start ups, and idle. I'm wondering if it would it be a good idea to use my Walbro 255lph pump (GSS342) as the primary pump, then stage one or two of the larger 525lph pumps? I still have my 255 pump from before, and instead of buying a F90000295 (non-check-valve pump) use a Y fitting to feed in the F90000285 (check-valve pump) that I have so that the 255 feeds in line without going back through the 525 pump because of the check valve it has. This would give a total of 780lph of pump when activated, and I think still within the 8AN feed lines capability to flow. I would be running a 255 for all times other than hard throttle, and just having the 525 feed into the same line via a Y fitting. Maybe install a dedicated check valve at the end of the Y also to make sure no fuel makes it back through the big pump? Not sure if the check valve in the pump alone should be trusted.
Thoughts on this? I can also go tipple with two big pumps staged in, but I think I'd need to go 10AN feed and 8AN return. And the rail is 8AN anyways. Too expensive to change this all out again. 780lph sounds like a healthy amount of fuel flow, and I already own both these pumps. Still would need to get the PHR hanger and either a dual or triple pump wiring harness. I will do what I have to though to make this work right.
First off, congrats on going for the PHR hanger. Quality piece I too aspire to pick up after my learnings with a single "hellcat" pump in a stock hanger.
My understanding is that as long as your return line can handle the volume of fuel you're pumping and NOT burning/using, you should be fine. You can effectively validate this by seeing at what point you can no longer reduce fuel pressure via the FPR. I'd say as long as you validate the fuel pressure at or below 40 psi, you'd be fine. For example, on my 340LPH pump running the stock Aristo return line, I have validated I can lower the base pressure down to 23-24 psi, meaning I have a good amount of headroom in the line for additional flow/capacity. If your base fuel pressure is steady and on point, with your ECU driving the injectors at this base fuel pressure, I would not expect any driveability issues related to pumping capacity.
Anecdotally, I have had a tuning shop share with me that with the single 0295 pump, they are able to reach 700whp mark on e85 on forced induction engines. Food for thought.
Interesting, it's things like that that make me hesitant to even buy the hanger and mess with my fuel system. According to my great lengths or research I should be fine for my goals on a single hellcat pump. I've also spoken to Jeff who builds the transmission I got and does a lot of tuning with Infinity ECU's. He is pretty certain the tuner has missed something in the setup. He said there's nothing in the transmission that could make the Infinity ECU not function, nor does a higher stall converter effect it in the way it's behaving. And I was surprised to hear my tuner's thought's on the fuel systems capabilities. I think he's mistaken and I'm beginning to doubt his abilities. I have been looking into trying to find another tuner, but nowhere else seems to want to mess with it. Considering finding one and just taking the car in as is and seeing if they have better results.
Ugh. I hate to hear of your troubles. I have found less than stellar tuning on my car before I found my current guy. I really can't wrap my head around how the transmission could in any way effect the behavior of the Infinity. Assuming you're still having the stock ECU run the transmission, correct? AFAIK, there should be no inputs to the infinity from the transmission, so I'm not too sure what would be up with that situation. Can you shed any additional light on this topic? Perhaps it's not the transmission and something else in the setup that isn't correct. Happy to go over my settings with you to compare - a little apples and oranges as I am on a Haltech, but the setups should be basically the same aside from the terminology differences.
02-14-21, 06:30 AM
Freaking out last minute!
. One week from dyno day and considering putting it on hold to swap for another pump. Well, the same pump but without the check valve. I went with the Ti-Auto F90000285 (525lph) when I started modding my hanger. But I realized that a check valve doesn't do much for a return fuel system since pressure bleeds off though the regulator/return line. I bought it hoping for better/faster startups. But I wired my pump to run with key on so it primes before cranking anyway. I'm considering the F90000295 which is the same pump but no check valve. This is a way more important factor that you might think considering the power figures I'm after. Unlike the dual or triple pump setups used for these high power builds, I am relying on just one pump that will be getting pretty much maxed out. It will be the limiting factor for my build. The tuner will be getting out of it what the fuel system will support basically. And the check valve is a flow inhibitor when it gets to needing max volume. This could make the difference of up to 100whp from what I understand talking to several sources if you really are maxing out the pump. 
I hate to hear of your troubles. I have found less than stellar tuning on my car before I found my current guy. I really can't wrap my head around how the transmission could in any way effect the behavior of the Infinity. Assuming you're still having the stock ECU run the transmission, correct? AFAIK, there should be no inputs to the infinity from the transmission, so I'm not too sure what would be up with that situation. Can you shed any additional light on this topic? Perhaps it's not the transmission and something else in the setup that isn't correct. Happy to go over my settings with you to compare - a little apples and oranges as I am on a Haltech, but the setups should be basically the same aside from the terminology differences.
