sraban

I think this is an unfair comment regarding Figs -- you don't really know what his R&D budget is -- you can criticize his products on the merit not just throw unsubstantiated accusations like this.

jsmacks

I see what you did there..

We all know he wasn't talking about FIGS..


To me, you guys just keep digging yourselves deeper with the continued hyperbole and generic sounding marketing quips. Using KW suspension is now a "downgrade", eh?

Just stahp. This is starting to reek of desperation..

RRRacing

iTrader: (1)

When we see someone taking unsubstantiated potshots at us, we will respond, sometimes with hyperbole. I think we have all clearly expressed ourselves here, and overall this thread is very informative.

I fail to see why some folks see a need to use insult. So when someone makes an absolutely baseless accusation that we didn't do enough R&D, its hard to let something like that slide, because it couldn't be further from the truth.

Rafi

sraban

What generic marketing? If you just want to lower your car why spend money on KWs when you can just buy lower springs? I am just trying to make you a favor. If you drive an OEM car on the track, you will realize that KWs are not better than the OEM. Besides, Figs also agreed that Penskes are superior than anything else. Is he doing "generic marketing" as well?

jsmacks

FIGS never said that Penske's were superior. Unlike either of you, he focused on objectively based science and facts instead of generic sounding marketing statements such as:

Do we really need 10 different posts from either of you tag teaming and shoving your products down peoples throats? Do we/I need PMs from both of you badmouthing FIGS and trying to drum up support behind the scenes?


Facts. Give me the objective facts.. and then leave it at that. This is not a RRRacing/Penske thread nor your personal advertising vehicle. I swear to dog.. after what I've seen here, I wouldn't run your products on my kids big wheel if you paid me.

Look, I get it. I own a company as well that's primarily web marketing based and holds industry forum sponsorships too. I know the game of drumming up support, recruiting the fanbois that spam the threads and SEOing the heck out of it. Just saying there's a line.. and FWIW, you may want to just stick to facts.. and remember that less is more. Big black sharpie marker on the internet bathroom walls doesn't wash off too quickly..

YMMV.

DougHII

Objective facts as to what??? Lol, based on what I am reading, I doubt you could even get to 7/10ths of the stock set up so candidly your decision would come down to subjective feel based on your own perceptions and, at the end of the day, price since test drives are unlikely.

Just throw the cheapest solution on there, be done, move on. No need to go on an OCD get out of my thread I ain't putting your stuff on a big wheel rant. The other feedback is actually very interesting to those that may have an interest in and could benefit from higher ended packages. Lol, it is a public forum to share ideas and product knowledge.

Z3NK1

iTrader: (2)

Have to say that I appreciate the guys from FIGS and RR Racing coming onto the forums and discussing the options they offer. I like being able to ask questions and understand the mindset of the people creating these products, and know that they stand behind them despite being criticized for shamelessly peddling their goods and bashing other brands. Sometimes that connection is completely absent with parts from overseas and you just have to rely on a company's online reputation or consumer reviews to help pick what's best for you.

I bought springs knowing that I'd be switching to coilovers when more options were available. Coilover options weren't popping up as fast as I'd anticipated, and I jumped on the first set that I knew would get me the ride height I wanted and they were positively reviewed online. Now I'm considering switching without even having tried the other ones yet, a decision based purely on speculation and warm fuzzy feelings from these guys who take the time out of their day to provide information to their target customers. How's that for effective advertising lol

RRRacing

iTrader: (1)

Ok, so while we diverted a bit, I maintain this is overall a good thread and its a good opportunity for us to answer questions.

There is a major difference our suspension tuning philosophy with our RR-Racing/Penske coilovers versus RSR and KW-V3 coilovers.

Lets start with spring rate choices. We utilize spring rates that are significantly higher than our competition (even our base 16kg front springs... but we can easily go higher than this). This results in (a) better weight transfer dynamics, (b) reduced body roll, (c) reduced understeer as you approach the limit, and (d) linear and more predictable handling behavior.

The illustration below is a good *estimate* of what happens in the IS/GS front suspension during cornering:




Effect of spring rate selection on suspension loading characteristics.



So in the figure above, we assume that during aggressive cornering, the shock/spring is seeing an effective increase in load of about 750lbs as measured at the shock/spring. (Note: This is just a good estimate of the amount of increase in loading you would see on an RCF under about 0.9g cornering force, the precise calculation depends on knowing the exact weight of the car, front/rear weight distribution, center of gravity height, track width, and motion ratio of the suspension).


I labelled two displacement points on the graph, "A" and point "B." Point A represents the amount of spring displacement and loading under a weight transfer of 750lbs for a 16kg (900lb) spring... and point "B" represents the same for the 10kg (560lb) spring.

The following are important differences in the behavior of the softer vs. stiffer suspension derived from the graphical illustration above (and from actual track testing):

(1) When the lateral weight transfer of 750lbs is applied, the suspension with the stiffer springs (labelled "A") behaves very linearly. The increase in loading on the wheels is more predictable and the driver has a better feel for the behavior of the car. Even as more than 750lbs load is applied to the spring/bump combo, the behavior continues to be linear. In the more softly spring suspension, you can see that after about 0.55" of travel, the force of the bump stops is starting to ramp up very quickly (beginning an exponential rather than linear ramp up). Any further increase in weight transfer and corning force results in non-linear bump travel and rapid non-linear increase in the effective spring rate (where the bump stop effectively takes over from the spring). This type of behavior typically induces at-the-limit understeer.

(2) Comparing displacements of the two springs under similar weight transfer, you can see that the more softly sprung car (displacement "B") will roll more (more bump travel for the applied load). The only way to reduce roll is by either increasing the bump stop stiffness, or using a larger roll bar. But increasing the bump stop stiffness will only make the situation described in above worse (more non-linear behavior). Likewise, increasing roll bar stiffness has negative consequences as well, such as reducing the independent movement of the suspension and inducing inside wheel lift.


Ok, so some may ask, "doesn't increasing the spring rate so much result in a harsh ride?"

No, not necessarily. This is where shock valving and shock quality come into play. When you are traveling on a bumpy road, the shock is actually playing a more important role than the spring in terms of what you feel. Bumps on the road force the shock to travel at a high speed, due to to the sudden impact of hitting something. Penske has done an amazing job at assisting us with shock valving. We achieved what is known as "digressive" rate curve, where the shock valving is set relatively soft at high shock travel speeds, making the ride over bumps very comfortable. Digressive valving also means that the shock valving at low shock speeds (low shock speeds occur when you change the direction of the car) is relatively hard, resulting in handling behavior that feels very responsive.

That said, some may ask, "Well, if increasing spring rates so much is so good, why doesn't every aftermarket coilover manufacturer do this?"

The higher you go with spring rates, the more energy the shock must absorb. More energy equals more heat, more pressure, and more stress. So now you need to use better materials to make the shock, machine everything to higher tolerances and higher quality control procedures. All these things are what makes Penske Shocks more expensive (not to mention their proprietary shock pistons and internals which are the same as found on their uber-expensive full race shocks). Running the higher spring rates on a lower quality shock results in reduced shock life/durability, and often times inability to control the energy (rebound) of the suspension, resulting in bouncy ride and poor tire contact with the road.

The other reason RSR and KW are limited with front spring rate choices is that they are limited with how high they can go on the rear spring rates since they are retaining the original "divorced" spring setup, and they must maintain a proper front/rear balance. This gets onto a whole other subject, but the main reason that it is difficult to run high springs rates on divorced spring type rear suspension is that (1) it limits "droop" travel of the rear suspension, and (2) due to the angular mismatch of the upper perch relative to the lower control arm, you induce a significant amount of bowing into the spring, which wreaks havoc on the linearity of the spring.


There are other things that make our suspension better, such as our "True Rear Coilover" conversion, and the fact that we use an upper spring perch to maintain perfectly linear spring rate loading... but I will work on some illustrations of those points and post on our website soon.

-Rafi

PS: I combined the bump stop and spring into a single "effective spring rate" for both the sample 16kg and 10kg setups. So the chart below illustrates that at 0.9g cornering load (750lbs), the 16kg spring setup (labelled "a") is still pretty much behaving linearly (following line labelled "c), while the 10kg spring setup (labelled "b") is starting to significantly deviate from linearity (line labelled "d"). I hope this makes better sense now with this graph:

toystry

Here is my .02 cents.......

First, let the vendors speak for themselves, they are the experts on this subject. Too many bandwagon fans rooting for their team (company)....enough already.

Second, we know a few of you got a sweet deals on your suspension system, that's great, now enjoy your sweet deal and shut your trap for a minute so the experts can talk. I'd never buy anything based on what any forum member solely recommends. Just because you have a certain "suspension system" doesn't mean it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, so stop wanking if everyone doesn't jump on your bandwagon. Most of us want to hear what the "experts" have to say, not what you have to say, especially if you're endorsing a certain product because you got a deal on it from a specific company. Shameless plugs are exactly that, shameless.

Third, enough of the "mine suspension is the best" bull*****. Proof is in the pudding, the two big Penske vendors are here, let them tell us why a certain setup is better because most of you don't have any experience building custom race shocks so stop pretending like you're the resident expert.

Finally, for those that are still undecided, I've spoke with both major vendors on this thread (FIGS and RRRacing), both of which use Penske. Both had good talking points, were very knowledgeable, and very courteous at the time I inquired about their systems. I learned quite a bit, but I still haven't pulled the plug with either vendor because there are still a few questions/concerns I have about running a track inspired suspension system and want to see what they have to say in greater detail.