crazymikie

Mine has the TVD with moon roof and every other option, but no carbon fiber package. It's the configuration I would have gone with of I bought it new.

I think the ML is worth getting. It's the best factory system I've ever heard.

DougHII

Not need. I am still not convinced it does anything for anyone except that guy on the tracks can only drive 9/1ths and might need some help in a car that understeers. Traction is traction and limits are limits. I can easily easily neutralize understeer in the RCF with throttle and slight weight transfers.

Traction control is designed to keep the car from rotating. Torque vectoring increases rotation. Torque vectoring perhaps has zero benefit except to neutralize understeer when a car is at or near the limits. Understeer is actually a good safety net for novice or intermediate drivers and will only be experienced when the car is at or near its limits.

If you are on the track and you are are a novice or intermediate driver, I suppose in theory it might help you. I personally would rather have the weight reduction, but then again I am more of a purist that prefers driver skill over electronics: (1) dog gears over sequential; (2) technical such as heel toe and double clutch technique over electronic shifting; (3) car control, balance and throttle steer over nannies such as traction control and torque vectoring.

That said, torque vectoring could possibly make sense on a car like a 911 that does require huge adjustments in suspension symmetry from the factory to make the car turn and track well because there is no weight up front. I just don't see the need for a front engine car and candidly an understeer set up is much better and safer than oversteer unless you actually have a ton of track experience and very solid driver control skills which you won't have unless you have a lot of track time spanning a couple of years.

crazymikie

I didn't drive a car without the tvd, however from every review I saw, the tvd makes the car more predictable. Without it, the car understeers and then, abruptly, well transition to oversteer. The tvd doesn't have this transition which would probably throw most drivers if they were on that situation.

DougHII

Dude, that makes absolutely no sense. Why would a car snap from under steer to oversteer on its own.

Torque vector will not make a car more predictable. Traction control will. Torque vectoring without traction control could make a car less predictable.

If you are having to use so much throttle in a turn on the track that torque vectoring would actually make any difference, you entered that turn way too slow and need to work on your skills.

Lol, please explain to me the mechanics of how a car could understeer and abruptly change to oversteer without the driver doing something incredibly stupid.

crazymikie

http://kaizen-factor.com/tvd-or-not-...-the-question/

As an aside, are you a jerk to everyone on this forum?

DougHII

Lol, relax . . . Life is great.

It all depends upon who is driving, but car limits are dictated by traction. Tire traction limits are not changed by some like torque vectoring.

About to get on another plane so no time to read the entire article.

The posted a quicker slalom and road coarse time, but if the are intermediate skill level they are going to have a lot of variance in track times.

.4 of closed circuit track times? Even an advanced driver will have a fair amount of variance in times from one run to the next. As indicated above, an intermediate driver may be assisted in track conditions when driving at or near their limits because an intermediate driver will not be consistent and will be 8/10ths and 9/10ths in most corners.

If one can consistently drive 10/10ths, I just don't see how torque vectoring can do anything to make the car exceed its limits.

At the end of the day, I would rather have less weight if I heard correctly that the TVD is about 160 pounds, but partially offset by the carbon roof. Give me the carbon roof and no TVD any day.

Again, I am a purist and grew racing open and closed wheel with no traction control, no electronics and dig gears.

If the Lexus TVD was not so dang heavy, I would not turn it down if it was free.

DougHII

But if dude is experiencing understeer to abrupt oversteer, he needs more track time . . . One would have to jack up pretty bad to do that.

coolsaber

For me the bottom line is the V8 sounds amazing and will a great GT car. However don`t buy it expecting M4 beating characteristics. Plus with leftover models selling for F sport money its a great bargain.

Definite lease though as the depreciation on these is like no other

kdu

Went to two dealers today. The good news is that my wife really likes the car after driving it. The performance packaged equipped cars are right around $68k out the door. A good deal considering the discount, but not as tempting since I can get a well equipped $75k 2016 M4 for about $71k after tax, title and fees.Trying two other local area dealers tomorrow and then will make up my mind.

wordsworth

We're in the 65k price range here - buy the RCF over the M4 because you prefer it, not because of a few thousand dollars...or you'll end up regretting it.

RRRacing

iTrader: (1)

That is really surprising that M4's are going for $71k. I test drove one about 4 months ago and even without ceramic brake option it was nearly $80, and no deal because they said they didn't have inventory on the East coast.

In any case, RCF's are going for $60k, which is an amazing deal. It comes down to preference. I was amazed that Randy Pobst track time in the RCF was only something like 0.3sec off of the M4. We were able to make huge improvements with our RRRacing/Penske coilovers, so I am confident that with a decent suspension, RCF will rule the track as well (if that's important to you).

Its funny how Lexus makes a nice car, they know they are competing against an M3 or M4... and they fall just short of the target. The biggest differenece between the BMW and the RCF is that the RCF is a "keeper" car that will be mechanically sound well after the warranty is over. Given our experience with the ISF, I'd rather buy a 90k ISF over a 30k M3, I am sure it will hold up better in the long run!

Rafi

alfaromeo3

iTrader: (4)

If you want more power then get the M4 or even get the GTR. Test drove a black edition GTR and I did not like the ride quality, interior design looks cheap, power oh yeah definitely. Then I went to test drive the carbon package M4 and I like it in a way except the interior. I thought of it and decided not to go back German since I had a C63.

I got my RCF as it is a complete car for me plus the V8 growl! Great exterior design as well as interior.
Also, there's a lot of aftermarket parts u can install to modify.

Speaking of M4, there's a guy yesterday that keeps looking at my Molten Pearl at the gas station. He approached me and he is thinking of trading his M4 to an RCF.

kdu

Most of the M4 models on the east coast come with a bunch of extra packages that put them at about $78k-$80k. Doing a custom build through allocation I got a quote that put my finished product right above $71k after TTF. That build in my opinion is equivalent to the performance packaged RC F. I've basically decided I'm not getting an M4 after my last BMW ownership experience. I think the RC F is just nicer as an overall car for day-to-day driving and reliability. Plus wife thinks they look boring and she likes the RC F better. My only reason for comparison is to highlight the fact that from a marketplace standpoint I think the 15 RC F still has a bit more room especially because it's a 15 and we are on to the 16 model year. Anyway, I know I'm totally overthinking this and the point someone made about buying the car I like is totally valid. However, I'm working on budget from the wife and I would love to put the money I "save" back into the car - exhaust, springs, wheels, etc. The budget happens to be what I would have paid for the M4.

What I'm really stuck on now is the TVD. I've gotten a chance to drive both TVD and non-TVD cars and I feel like I can tell a difference on the road. I'm trying to be honest with myself and don't know how much of this perceived feel is attributed to me reading reviews and knowing that I'm driving a TVD equipped car. Either way, while I'm not planning on tracking the car regularly, but I do want to do a bit of auto cross with it. Thus it seems the like performance package is still the way to go. Hope this is all making sense. It's definitely been helpful getting the feedback from you guys so far.

kdu

Do you have a point of view on TVD vs non-TVD?

DougHII

The interesting part about the above article is the apparent comment that TVD would prevent abrupt oversteer. TVD, in theory, causes the car to rotate and would potentially induce oversteer on a car that normally would just understeer . . . , but who cares as will be explained below.


RE: to get or not to get

You may feel a difference with TVD or it may be suggestion. If you like it and don't mind the extra $$$, go for it. TVD certainly won't harm you enjoyment factor in daily driving. I also love the carbon roof, especially on darker colors so that kind of makes the price of admission worth it.


RE: No apparent reliable data to support benefits

The original Car and Driver quoted in the above link states that all manufacturers using torque vectoring could not provide data to support benefits of torque vectoring on any makes. This speaks volumes. Porsche has a torque vectoring option and spends massive amounts of track time developing and testing their vehicles with skilled drivers such as Rohrl and Haywood. if there were true objective advantages, they would have RELIABLE data to support those advantages. There can be large variances with car magazine testers for exact same equipment.

The ONLY way to see if TVD makes a difference would be to use data logger data from a track session (multiple laps) by a highly skilled driver. Turn in , apex, track out speeds, Gs and track positions would be necessary. I do this when setting up suspensions, adjusting tire pressures, positioning ballast and deciding best lines (double v. single apex). A single lap time, especially .4 seconds difference, indicates nothing as one could have braked early in a turn, missed an apex by a foot or two or who knows what to account for the difference that may have arisen in a single spot on the track.


RE: You gotta purchase now because you indirectly drank the cool-aide

The understeer, oversteer focus by magazines is bit silly as 99% of those purchasing this car will not be driving at and do not have the capabilities of driving at a car's limits, especially on public streets.

I would not stress over TVD either way. If you like the roof and think it feels better in turns and you don't mind the costs of the option, get it. At least that way you won't be second guessing yourself later because now the seed has been planted. Had that seed not been planted you probably would have never "felt" any differences and would be happy either way. But since the seed has been planted, go big or go home. Get it just so you won't be kicking yourself later or wondering if you should have gotten it.