Real or Synthetic Oil....
08-16-17, 06:50 PM
#241
25,000 Mile UOA
Lexus RC-F 25,000 Miles.pdf
Well guys, here are my new results at 5,000 miles. I wanted to do a check to see if I can go 10,000 miles on the oil. I replaced the oil filter, which was a breeze on my neighbors lift. I've also been playing around with a combo of fuel additives, ethanol mixes and some other things. I was really pleased with the results minus the PC and the BN. I did not expect to take such a big hit on the BN. I'm going to call the lab in the morning for a rerun to verify 100% the BN was that low. I expected to see a slightly lower BN this time around but not that low. The AW number didn't show on this report but I will have that posted tomorrow.
I have tried running the RLI for extended drains before but it appears again, RLI just doesn't work for extended drains.
Acid was reduced and deposits were controlled, combustion efficiency rose as well as deposits were reduced. As a result, significant reduction in wear. This time around I did not put any large amount of highway miles, this was almost purely less than 15 minutes city driving.
Will have more details tomorrow. It also, looks like my WIX XP filter did well but I should have probably changed it at 4,000 since I wanted to do an extended drain. In any case, I will be testing the Amsoil SS 0W-20 here pretty soon for extended drain. That soon may be sooner than I think though
Well guys, here are my new results at 5,000 miles. I wanted to do a check to see if I can go 10,000 miles on the oil. I replaced the oil filter, which was a breeze on my neighbors lift. I've also been playing around with a combo of fuel additives, ethanol mixes and some other things. I was really pleased with the results minus the PC and the BN. I did not expect to take such a big hit on the BN. I'm going to call the lab in the morning for a rerun to verify 100% the BN was that low. I expected to see a slightly lower BN this time around but not that low. The AW number didn't show on this report but I will have that posted tomorrow.
I have tried running the RLI for extended drains before but it appears again, RLI just doesn't work for extended drains.
Acid was reduced and deposits were controlled, combustion efficiency rose as well as deposits were reduced. As a result, significant reduction in wear. This time around I did not put any large amount of highway miles, this was almost purely less than 15 minutes city driving.
Will have more details tomorrow. It also, looks like my WIX XP filter did well but I should have probably changed it at 4,000 since I wanted to do an extended drain. In any case, I will be testing the Amsoil SS 0W-20 here pretty soon for extended drain. That soon may be sooner than I think though
08-17-17, 01:08 PM
#242
Great report, especially wear, viscosity/VI, and lack of fuel... and even then, esp. for city-only driving, where FD often rears its ugly head the worst. But yes I'm stumped on the TBN as well for such an otherwise robust oil marketed as "HD".
My ultimate goal would be 7-8k OCI's on the IS-F, changing the filter every other OCI and letting Toyota do their usual inspection every 15k, that way a dealer has a look at everything underneath once a year or so.
Got your test kit btw for the RR Racing air/oil separator... thanks! I'm driving a CoTA event in 2 weeks - would you prefer the sample be taken before this event or after?
Side-note, you'd mentioned in a post you'd be driving your RC-F to ~500k over 10 years. But no highway driving now? The new job a lot closer to home? I'd looked forward to seeing UOA's from you every month!
My ultimate goal would be 7-8k OCI's on the IS-F, changing the filter every other OCI and letting Toyota do their usual inspection every 15k, that way a dealer has a look at everything underneath once a year or so.
Got your test kit btw for the RR Racing air/oil separator... thanks! I'm driving a CoTA event in 2 weeks - would you prefer the sample be taken before this event or after?
Side-note, you'd mentioned in a post you'd be driving your RC-F to ~500k over 10 years. But no highway driving now? The new job a lot closer to home? I'd looked forward to seeing UOA's from you every month!
08-17-17, 06:45 PM
#243
Lexus Test Driver
I did oil change and put in RLI before track day.
Was hoping to not see so much oil in the catch can.
There was a difference as far as the output volume of oil in the catch can but it wasn't dramatic.
Previously with royal purple, I would get a full catch can every 20 min session.
This time, every 20 min session gave me about 2/3 cans worth. 3 sessions total gave me approx 8oz.
I will say the oil color was very different between what I was use to before vs now with RLI.
The royal purple oil was very dark, almost black and really viscous and thick.
This time, the RLI oil was darker than new, but not black. Also the viscosity seemed normal like new oil.
What are your thoughts?
Does the fact that there is still oil output tell you that I may have damaged internals?
thanks in advance.
Ming
08-18-17, 06:57 AM
#244
Don't be afraid to run RLI out to 10,000 miles. It has to do with the base oil formulation of the oil that renders the TBN numbers low when in use but since TBN is not linear to usage, I've seen many UOA's on RLI where there is a drastic drop in TBN initially but then it tends to stay there for a long time. The other number that would be alarmingly high in any other UOA is oxidation at 101 but again it has something to do with RLI's formulation that lends this number high but is totally fine as you can see from the viscosity numbers at 40 and 100.
08-18-17, 08:13 AM
#245
Nick, send that bottle back asap! it doesn't need to be from the track, dump the catch can oil! LOL I told Lance it would be Monday........Yeah I work from home now, after three years of on the road.
Mingo, you're fine, don't worry. Well you definitely have more ring seal in the engine from what you're telling me. Still lots of people want to know what that catch can is catching. It can't hurt, it'll catch EGR residuals either way. What filter, fuel, and air filter are you running? RLI on it's own doesn't bring you into the 1% FD range. The catch can collecting oil has no bearing on damage from internals. This engine has 10 quarts in the sump, that's a lot of oil, some of it is bound to come up. An oil that provides better ring seal and keeps the temp down in the sump will "come" up less.
Kingofire, I like your little signature block!!! LOL I will have results here soon from the rerun. While nothing in cars is linear, the BN is low as was the AW reading. Oxidation was a bit low, I had expected it to be a bit higher with my current usage, but I've been running a lot of things in the engine and I think I know what did it. We will see what new data I get back as some of the numbers didn't look right either. Will report back soon.
Mingo, you're fine, don't worry. Well you definitely have more ring seal in the engine from what you're telling me. Still lots of people want to know what that catch can is catching. It can't hurt, it'll catch EGR residuals either way. What filter, fuel, and air filter are you running? RLI on it's own doesn't bring you into the 1% FD range. The catch can collecting oil has no bearing on damage from internals. This engine has 10 quarts in the sump, that's a lot of oil, some of it is bound to come up. An oil that provides better ring seal and keeps the temp down in the sump will "come" up less.
Kingofire, I like your little signature block!!! LOL I will have results here soon from the rerun. While nothing in cars is linear, the BN is low as was the AW reading. Oxidation was a bit low, I had expected it to be a bit higher with my current usage, but I've been running a lot of things in the engine and I think I know what did it. We will see what new data I get back as some of the numbers didn't look right either. Will report back soon.
08-18-17, 08:15 AM
#246
Nick, you want to change the filter more than the oil if anything. I think 15,000 is attainable on the Amsoil SS 0W20 with filter changes every 5K and a few variables. That's going to be my next run.
08-18-17, 09:03 AM
#247
I'll send that catch can oil today if I can leave work early enough. Thx again for sending the mailer.
08-18-17, 10:44 AM
#248
"Hi Dan,
Thank you for your patience while the website issues and sample were being worked on. I have had both the water content and base number retested multiple times between yesterday and today. I have attached the revised report with the retest results. The water content was detected at 0.0454% and the base number was detected at 6.96. I believe this was more in-line with what you were expecting. I have asked our quality department to look into the difference in base number results as that is a significant difference. On the other hand, the water results are in line with the expected reproducibility of the method.
In regard to the website issues we discovered yesterday, our IT department is still looking into why the inconsistency exists so that they can try to prevent it in the future. They were able to identify that the data on the website was not the correct data for the FTIR parameters that were listed (nitration, antiwear, and other fluid). I believe you are working with them on another project currently, and my understanding is that they are beginning to make changes, and that it is a slow step-by-step process.
Taylor informed me I had missed your call. I’ll be giving you a call in a couple minutes.
Rate Our Service -
Heather M. Vercillo, CLS
Lubrication Analyst"
Without being a know it all- I had called water out at 450ppm and the BN at 7. So upon calling the lab, a sample I had run got mixed up with mine(both were mine, the other was no KF/TBN). Lab errors do happen, even with the best. It's why it's important to really understand what's happening and not just rely on one set of tests. The beauty of this lab? They OWNED it 100% and corrected it. Most labs, including my previous labs, would start questioning you so as to not lose face or terminate the relationship if it wasn't profitable enough. this is why most industrial guys hate UOA. I'm totally in love with this new lab.
Nick, I'd love to see that data if you could find it and share. Lance's UOA at the beginning really needed better filtration more than anything. Here's the problem with particle count, there's pore blockage or optical for the most part. Most automotive samples do not give consistent reading under optical counting as they are too dark(we're shooting a laser here). 2. Understanding a particle count is incredibly tough to do, and the machine I wish this lab has, they don't. 3. There's a lot of things the filter picks up that are not metal particles, which completely renders the particle count useless in that case. In short, it's a nice add on but it's tough to understand and know what to do with and a good UOA will show filter performance in other areas. A key component of keeping deposits down and FD is a good filter. A filter loaded with EGRed fuel residuals that the PC won't pick up will lead to the afore mentioned.
A product I have been developing for the GT-R, we tried to integrate for the RC-F but haven't found willing participants, pulls out the liquid contaminants out of the oil. It filters down to 3 microns(absolute NOT nominal) and does some other cool things. It renders M1 in the GT-R, which the GT-R destroys, into a formidable oil. The filter is so good, I had a guy go 25,000 miles on his Camaro on SuperTech oil. Supertech dawg! Only reason he had to change was the oil starting to oxidize. He had 15ppm of iron with no added oil and AC delco filter. With filtration like that, Amsoil would potentially be a 60,000 mile oil with just filter changes.
Thank you for your patience while the website issues and sample were being worked on. I have had both the water content and base number retested multiple times between yesterday and today. I have attached the revised report with the retest results. The water content was detected at 0.0454% and the base number was detected at 6.96. I believe this was more in-line with what you were expecting. I have asked our quality department to look into the difference in base number results as that is a significant difference. On the other hand, the water results are in line with the expected reproducibility of the method.
In regard to the website issues we discovered yesterday, our IT department is still looking into why the inconsistency exists so that they can try to prevent it in the future. They were able to identify that the data on the website was not the correct data for the FTIR parameters that were listed (nitration, antiwear, and other fluid). I believe you are working with them on another project currently, and my understanding is that they are beginning to make changes, and that it is a slow step-by-step process.
Taylor informed me I had missed your call. I’ll be giving you a call in a couple minutes.
Rate Our Service -
Heather M. Vercillo, CLS
Lubrication Analyst"
Without being a know it all- I had called water out at 450ppm and the BN at 7. So upon calling the lab, a sample I had run got mixed up with mine(both were mine, the other was no KF/TBN). Lab errors do happen, even with the best. It's why it's important to really understand what's happening and not just rely on one set of tests. The beauty of this lab? They OWNED it 100% and corrected it. Most labs, including my previous labs, would start questioning you so as to not lose face or terminate the relationship if it wasn't profitable enough. this is why most industrial guys hate UOA. I'm totally in love with this new lab.
Nick, I'd love to see that data if you could find it and share. Lance's UOA at the beginning really needed better filtration more than anything. Here's the problem with particle count, there's pore blockage or optical for the most part. Most automotive samples do not give consistent reading under optical counting as they are too dark(we're shooting a laser here). 2. Understanding a particle count is incredibly tough to do, and the machine I wish this lab has, they don't. 3. There's a lot of things the filter picks up that are not metal particles, which completely renders the particle count useless in that case. In short, it's a nice add on but it's tough to understand and know what to do with and a good UOA will show filter performance in other areas. A key component of keeping deposits down and FD is a good filter. A filter loaded with EGRed fuel residuals that the PC won't pick up will lead to the afore mentioned.
A product I have been developing for the GT-R, we tried to integrate for the RC-F but haven't found willing participants, pulls out the liquid contaminants out of the oil. It filters down to 3 microns(absolute NOT nominal) and does some other cool things. It renders M1 in the GT-R, which the GT-R destroys, into a formidable oil. The filter is so good, I had a guy go 25,000 miles on his Camaro on SuperTech oil. Supertech dawg! Only reason he had to change was the oil starting to oxidize. He had 15ppm of iron with no added oil and AC delco filter. With filtration like that, Amsoil would potentially be a 60,000 mile oil with just filter changes.
Last edited by danielTRLK; 08-18-17 at 01:55 PM.
The following users liked this post:
BossMoss (08-19-17)
08-18-17, 12:51 PM
#249
Great news on the re-sample, Daniel... You might edit your post and remove their survey link btw!
Thx as always for sharing re: particle count. Wish I could remember more details. It's like half the things I read on the various forums - the concept sticks firmly with me, but by the time I need to recall the more detailed aspects, they're barely in my brain let alone where I sourced them!
Didn't Amsoil have a super-fine side-stream filter like the one you mention, similar to the setup utilized on big rig diesels? Definitely a great concept!
Thx as always for sharing re: particle count. Wish I could remember more details. It's like half the things I read on the various forums - the concept sticks firmly with me, but by the time I need to recall the more detailed aspects, they're barely in my brain let alone where I sourced them!
Didn't Amsoil have a super-fine side-stream filter like the one you mention, similar to the setup utilized on big rig diesels? Definitely a great concept!
08-18-17, 01:48 PM
#250
Great news on the re-sample, Daniel... You might edit your post and remove their survey link btw!
Thx as always for sharing re: particle count. Wish I could remember more details. It's like half the things I read on the various forums - the concept sticks firmly with me, but by the time I need to recall the more detailed aspects, they're barely in my brain let alone where I sourced them!
Didn't Amsoil have a super-fine side-stream filter like the one you mention, similar to the setup utilized on big rig diesels? Definitely a great concept!
Thx as always for sharing re: particle count. Wish I could remember more details. It's like half the things I read on the various forums - the concept sticks firmly with me, but by the time I need to recall the more detailed aspects, they're barely in my brain let alone where I sourced them!
Didn't Amsoil have a super-fine side-stream filter like the one you mention, similar to the setup utilized on big rig diesels? Definitely a great concept!
08-22-17, 08:50 AM
#252
Hey Guys,
Is this the oil filter I need for my 2017 RCF? I purchased the bio syn oil and now need to purchase a filter. Here is the link,
Thanks!
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DUAOH0...ff8ba98567c8_S
Is this the oil filter I need for my 2017 RCF? I purchased the bio syn oil and now need to purchase a filter. Here is the link,
Thanks!
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DUAOH0...ff8ba98567c8_S
I purchased WIX 57310.
08-22-17, 10:16 AM
#253
Well, I listened to daniel on got the 57041XP. Got two of them from Rock Auto:
http://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/wix...il+filter,5340
Would have bought 3, but the shipping cost doubled
AFAIK WIX 57310 and 57041 are the same filter except for the vertical mount filter drain. And AFAIK there is no XP version of the 57310. So, per daniel's recommendation I chose the 57041XP.
Lou
Lou
http://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/wix...il+filter,5340
Would have bought 3, but the shipping cost doubled
AFAIK WIX 57310 and 57041 are the same filter except for the vertical mount filter drain. And AFAIK there is no XP version of the 57310. So, per daniel's recommendation I chose the 57041XP.
Lou
Lou
08-22-17, 03:40 PM
#254
Well, I listened to daniel on got the 57041XP. Got two of them from Rock Auto:
http://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/wix...il+filter,5340
Would have bought 3, but the shipping cost doubled
AFAIK WIX 57310 and 57041 are the same filter except for the vertical mount filter drain. And AFAIK there is no XP version of the 57310. So, per daniel's recommendation I chose the 57041XP.
Lou
Lou
http://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/wix...il+filter,5340
Would have bought 3, but the shipping cost doubled
AFAIK WIX 57310 and 57041 are the same filter except for the vertical mount filter drain. And AFAIK there is no XP version of the 57310. So, per daniel's recommendation I chose the 57041XP.
Lou
Lou
08-22-17, 04:31 PM
#255
^^^^See the posts quoted below. They're from past pages of this thread:
Lou
At this point, the Wix 57310 appears to be the same filter cartridge as the 57041. I spoke with Wix tech support last year about it, they have the same dimensions and beta ratios (which I can't place my hands on) listed for both part numbers. The difference lies in the extra gasket and vertical drain valve tool being part of the 57041 package. So if one wants to try 57041XP, it will fit. The end cap does not restrict the flow.
Well, I wanted to give you guys an update on the WIX 57041XP which I got on eBay for $13/each with free shipping. I bought 3, so I'm pretty set for a few months in terms of supply. So fitment wise, went in like the OEM filter, no problems. I know we've previously had a discussion about fitment, etc. So a while back I had contacted WIX and kept getting BS responses, I'd ask a question and literally was told, WIX is the best filter in the planet, it just got bad at the end. LOL.
When something doesn't make sense to me, I'm the kind of guy, where it sticks in my head, and I'll think about it every once in a while. Well, a few nights ago, I was looking at the Fram filters and it dawned on me, why WIX never recommended or tested the 57041XP over the 57310 even though they are the same size and fit. The RC F is one of 3 or so Lexus vehicles that officially recommends conventional oil. So after cross referencing a few Lexus engine's and Toyota engines back and forth, I kept finding the same thing. On Lexus models where conventional was recommended the 57310 appeared, but in the same engine in a Toyota with an OEM synthetic recommendation, the 57041 and 57041XP appeared.
I can only imagine WIX's marketing department would have a nightmare if they found their engineering department to be recommending the XP on conventional oil since that's a huge component of the marketing right there. WIX likely never bothered and figured most Lexus owners will either blindly follow the manual, go to the dealer, or the service shop would put conventional in.
While this is a strongly evidence based theory, it would explain why there's no XP filter, and in other posts where people tell me the manufacturers know best, this is further proof, how much control marketing has over engineering. At the end of the day, what can't be sold to the masses, can't be engineered.
I will have a UOA with the XP filter soon, we shall see how well it filtered compared to the Lexus OE filter. I have a member on this forum with a supercharged unit, that if allowed, I can share the filtration difference on the Mobil 1 filter and the XP. I'm not sure if Champion makes the paper Mobil 1 filters, so I'd like to find out in the meantime who makes the paper M1 filter. Until then I will probably not be back on. I do have two supercharged UOA's you guys might find interesting but I think both owners are waiting on a few things before I can share.
I will be testing the Amsoil Signature Series 0W20 next and see how it performs.
When something doesn't make sense to me, I'm the kind of guy, where it sticks in my head, and I'll think about it every once in a while. Well, a few nights ago, I was looking at the Fram filters and it dawned on me, why WIX never recommended or tested the 57041XP over the 57310 even though they are the same size and fit. The RC F is one of 3 or so Lexus vehicles that officially recommends conventional oil. So after cross referencing a few Lexus engine's and Toyota engines back and forth, I kept finding the same thing. On Lexus models where conventional was recommended the 57310 appeared, but in the same engine in a Toyota with an OEM synthetic recommendation, the 57041 and 57041XP appeared.
I can only imagine WIX's marketing department would have a nightmare if they found their engineering department to be recommending the XP on conventional oil since that's a huge component of the marketing right there. WIX likely never bothered and figured most Lexus owners will either blindly follow the manual, go to the dealer, or the service shop would put conventional in.
While this is a strongly evidence based theory, it would explain why there's no XP filter, and in other posts where people tell me the manufacturers know best, this is further proof, how much control marketing has over engineering. At the end of the day, what can't be sold to the masses, can't be engineered.
I will have a UOA with the XP filter soon, we shall see how well it filtered compared to the Lexus OE filter. I have a member on this forum with a supercharged unit, that if allowed, I can share the filtration difference on the Mobil 1 filter and the XP. I'm not sure if Champion makes the paper Mobil 1 filters, so I'd like to find out in the meantime who makes the paper M1 filter. Until then I will probably not be back on. I do have two supercharged UOA's you guys might find interesting but I think both owners are waiting on a few things before I can share.
I will be testing the Amsoil Signature Series 0W20 next and see how it performs.
The following users liked this post:
BossMoss (08-22-17)