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Dave, I think most people are forgetting the primary reason for oil analysis. It is to track and follow the wear of the engine and being able to correct significant issues before they become catastrophic issues. I'll give a good example......09 Civic, no check engine lights or signs of issues. owner complained about poor fuel economy, so I ran a sample and sure enough a significant amount of fuel dilution(7.12%), figure it shouldn't be higher than 0.5% in Honda's 1.8L. had the owner not sampled, he would have continued driving until the engine gave way. Also found significant traces of his timing chain and cams in the sample and what was likely signs of a dirty air filter. If you're doing oil analysis to stretch out drain intervals on a car, you're entirely missing the point. You want to increase the drain intervals when you're talking about a $15,000 oil change on a turbine with 397 passengers on board. Lexus doesn't care about the oil so much, they want to see the car every 5,000 to make sure everything else is ok and so they can sell you more things.
An ambulance company of mine, found even though they stretched their oil change intervals by double, their vehicles fell apart much faster than before, why? Because they were no longer being seen as often and 22 year old EMT's will drive on shot rotors and bad suspension. Their solution? go back to the cheap oil because they rather see the ambulance more often than not. That doesn't mean there was no value in the analysis, I saved the company close to $325,000~ that year in blown engines and transmissions, but they just didn't care about how long they could stretch their oil for.
Damn, Daniel HOW much $$$$$ is YOUR ambulance company making a year IF you saved them $325k in just blown engines & transmissions! but then again you said THEY didn't care about how long THEY could stretch THEIR oil for? Is it YOUR company or THEIRS?
i change my oil ever 3k miles or every 6 months. usually the latter. for the people who t think I'm wasting money, having my sanity and not losing sleep over it, its well worth it for me. Synthetic mobil 1/pennzoil platinum for my ISF, I'm using ENEOS for the RCF this time around.
lol not my company, a client of mine, they were routinely blowing 30-35 motors a year. most were diesel sprinters, some others were ford gas engines. They haven't blown one since I've worked with them. Pretty common amongst ambulance companies really. They idle all day long.
@ISFPOWER, why don't you try renewable lubricants, I have no affiliation with them FYI. the brands you mention Pennzoil/Mobil 1 are not what they're all chalked up to be. The reason they are so big, is they dump millions in marketing, half the time the technical directors calling me don't even know what's in their oil. Also, every 3k? That's a bit wasteful, I would question why you don't go down to 1,000 mile intervals? 9.8 quarts or 9.9 is a tremendous amount of oil, conventional or synthetic. I have a lot of inside information I am not allowed to release on forums, so I apologize in advance if it seems like I'm being cryptic.
...I have a lot of inside information I am not allowed to release on forums, so I apologize in advance if it seems like I'm being cryptic.
Realizing there are things you can and can't post - on my reports, you can clearly see a sudden change in the calcium and magnesium contents of Mobil 1 in 2012 (or so - I buy oil and it sits on the shelf sometimes for a couple of years before I use it). Can you comment on why they did this?
Am I supposed to use the twitter thing “@” to refer to another member?
@lobuxracer…….I’m sure in real life you are an awesome guy, however you have asked me to interpret your data and tell you what you’ve missed. Pardon me in advance if I offend you in any way or manner, but I will give you complete honesty.
Where do I begin? Blackstone…….this is a misguided lab, their equipment is old and outdated, they're making recommendations on misguided information, and in turn put out a lot of bad info and damage a lot of peoples engines…..lol…..They’re not even ISO 9001 which is a joke of a certification anyways. I personally don’t see them ever achieving ISO17025:2005, without changing ownership and spending $2-3mil. Ryan doesn’t care to certify his lab, well because all of his customers are on the retail/consumer end side. I apologize; none of you on these forums have any idea on how to interpret data, one bit. Until you understand the ASTM methods of testing procedures and have experience working with the manufacturers making the engines and testing their racing teams, you’ll be lost. Can’t publicy acknowledge affiliations at this time but some of you will catch the drift.
I’m assuming from the values I’ve seen you’re running the oe oil filter and air intake filter…….I could be wrong but the information was not provided, I will assume OE as such.
As an FYI, for you stump the dummies out there, yes it is possible to stump me but that’s because you’re lying. And please don’t urinate in the oil, we can tell through ICP you’re low on nutrients.
Lobuxracer, you’ve had elevated iron readings needlessly for YEARS. Part of that is the M1 formulation, in the past it wouldn’t protect in the high pressure areas on the engine, which is why in 2012 they changed the formulation to include a different additive package. Magnesium Sulfinate was used as an additive and it provides antiwear in extreme pressure areas and it boosts the TBN value by a decent amount. They what they did was drop the calcium carbonate/sulfinate additive pack and compensated with the magnesium sulfinate to stay below the sulfinated ash test. Zinc changed somewhat to a ZDTP ester, which provided some of the AW they were looking for in 2013. It’s still and was a good formula. It’s done fine but you’ve needlessly had fuel dilution the entire time you’ve owned this car. This is a reason blackstone is misguided, and partially why they’re not certified. The oil in your IS-F has been diluted by fuel not by sheer. Because the viscosity improvers in M1 are actually pretty good.
The insoluble’s have consistently been too high the entire time. In other words, the oil is carrying too much stuff, becomes worn and now actually becomes a third party wear agent.
This engine is extremely well built, props to Yamaha for developing the head and the clearances on them, and props to the guys at Toyota that made the rest. I remember when this engine was first being developed and ultimately lead to the collaboration on the LF-A,
Chromium – I don’t think your rings have ever fully seated. There’s not one trace of them in any of your tests, dating all the way to the begin. Would explain the fuel dilution from almost the beginning. If I had met you sooner, I would have told you to seat those rings, aggressively.
Iron- 35ppm, exceedingly high, not damage level or harmful, probably just some oil pump wear taking place, mostly fuel dilution related. Historically you have long term wear, and now that there are a lot of miles, there is probably some micro corrosion wear, the AF test, cannot be performed by Blackstone, you can even see on their website, they publicly state they test some things “at another facility” a.k.a. they call someone like us to do the real stuff.
The oil is not being filtered well, 35 is way too high, however not horrible considering 14,000 miles. I guess I’d be interested in your driving habits…..
Copper – M1 does a very good job mitigating strong acids causing issues, in the beginning you saw it elevated as it seated, mostly the heat exchangers dumping it. Good reading
Lead – there is no conforming lead in the composition of this engine. I did see it early on, probably from gasket making materials and or something used as an antiknock index additive in the fuel. Consistently been low, since there is no lead in this engine. Fine
Tin- interesting…...So there really shouldn’t be any tin, it’s not normally a bearing alloy until you get deep into the bearing, may indicate some long term wear. It’s likely related to the valvetrain somewhere and/or there is also a timing chain tensioner wearing, chain stretch likely also taking effect. Not Good and very concerning.
Nickel – wrist pins are taking a big beating, and needless fuel dilution is taking place. Nickel is a valve guide alloy in this engine. Not good, should be 0 and was for a while
Silver – Most likely the heat exchanger braze coming loose, i.e. the engine got hot, wasn’t running right or dirt ingress that took place or just the oil becoming abrasive from Post EGR fuels residuals.
Titanium – zero, would be used as a tracer in this engine, good.
Potassium – clean historically, never had coolant ingress, so likely contamination from sampling by the lab at some point during possession.
Boron – normal oil additive, completely depleted for this extended drain, would switch to M1 0W-20 EP unless you are racing or tracking your IS-F
Silicon – Elevated, likely dirt ingress…..some…..it’s also an alloy in the cyclinders and pistons. You need to get this under 10ppm, especially for the2UR
Sodium – additive in the oil and also dirt, not sure physically where you are at, but I would study the dirt in your area to get an idea of what it looks like ingested post burn, but it’s in the normal ranges. Only other place I can think of is from fuel tanks that were previously used for diesel and then they cleaned them and used them for gas.
Magnesium – additive from Infineum, please don’t ask how I know that.
Zinc, Phos – normal, tells you nothing looking at these values since you can’t see the active capability and there is no knowledge on the AW capability.
Barium – dye marker or grease trace, usually comes from the oil filter treads
Visc – too thin! The oil has historically been too thin. It is an SAE 30 right now only because it thickened itself back up. It’s far too thin; if you buy a 5W-30 do you want an SAE 30? If you want a 20, just go buy one, it’ll do better than this 30 has in staying in grade.
Oil did sheer and thin from post EGR fuel dilution, meaning residuals are causing problems in the engine, classic on these new modern engines where a lot of compromise has to be made.
Flash Point – 390….this is probably an open cup flash where they do it under a hood…..it is not an accurate test for today’s new fuels. Should be well above 400, this car has chronically had FD it’s entire life.
Fuel % - completely inaccurate, they are making calculations and not actually testing for this. Another machine blackstone does not have, GC. FD has likely been at 1%-2% the entire time. RED FLAG.
Antifreeze % - they’re doing water by crackle test……not accurate but I agree there probably isn’t coolant
Water PPM – crackle test? They’re not doing Karl Fischer. Their method is so inaccurate, I don’t know how much water you have in your engine or don’t have.
Insolubles – 0.3%?? <0.6%, what is wrong with those people. On a clean engine you should have 0-0.1%. You’ve never been there. Your air filter and oil filtration is hammering this oil. It’s not M1’s fault! This is a VVT engine with 4 cams, and many many valves. You’re tearing this engine up for no reason. Wasted $$$ on bad analysis, engine has long term wear damage in my opinion at this point.
You need to get a better oil filter, I recommend the WIX XP, I’ve tested the filter many times at work and I can tell you this filter is probably better than WIX knows it is.
TBN – it’s depleted, they say it’s strong? Ok the acid is probably in reasonable control, but with the fuel dilution you get varnish formation from fuel, it’s really hard to read. Most labs don’t do a good job of knowing it’s there. You need different tests at this point
Honestly, analytically if you accept this much wear, you can probably go to 18,000. The car isn’t in tune, never has been……… you’re beating the F--- out of your engine.
Also, I’d recommend changing out the plugs and coils and boots at this point. Check for chain stretch, switch your oil and filter. And get a new air filter in there or look at the CAI for leaks. M1 EP 0W-20 with WIX XP is my recommendation for what you want to do and this engine. This is why Lexus doesn't want people going 14k. I would seriously consider some introspecting and ask if you would be willing to accept maybe your science project is over and you move down to 10K..........And no I will not divulge for the people that have PMed, how I know the inner design of the 2UR-GSE.
Blackstone has royally misguided you unintentionally.
I didn't agree with deviating from the manufacturer's oil change interval. But I would have thought that having a Blackstone oil analysis done would provide a reliable insight into the condition of an engine. I mean, people like me don't know anything about this stuff so we have to depend on the so-called experts.
So if Blackstone is not reliable, who would you recommend to do oil the analysis on our engines?
Edit: Also, you mentioned something about his filter. I wonder if he's using the Tundra filter like some of the IS and RC owners... It's another debate that I've been involved in. They say it fits, so it's good. I say it's different color and likely doesn't filter as well (i.e. made from different materials).
Problem with these extended drains is what happens when something fails in the beginning of that drain? It's way too much to risk in my opinion.
Figure this analysis took close to 6 hours with years of experience working with manufacturers, professional racing teams, and formulating oils with the oil companies themselves. The typical guy at Blackstone has a light automotive background with a booklet that gives him AVERAGE values in the industry, not specific references, nor has he ever worked with guys at Toyota or Ferrari or GE Transportation or he'd be making mid six figures and sure as hell would not be at Blackstone. When they say 19ppm is ok, they're looking at industry averages, which is cookie cutter. It's not up to par on a $70k car though. on an old rusty SOHC Civic? eh ok, even then he can't look at the analysis and tell you if your chain is stretched. This car has 4 cams for goodness sake! There's a lot more to look at when you need a real analysis. A real analysis will actually tell you what's going on, but you can't really find many people left that know this stuff.
It would be my guess he is using the stock filter.
On the 2UR-GSE I would recommend the WIX XP, that filter is so darn good. The problem when you go 10k or 15k is your filter doesn't hold up as well as the oil, the oil would be in much better shape if the air filter and oil filter were corrected. Cheap air filter as possible every 10k. Stay away from K&N, unless you replace every 10k and even then there's usually problems with them. and if they're not oiled properly? oh boy!
In regards to Blackstone, they're well intentioned people, but there's just no way they can do what they claim for $28. To get what I did for Lobuxracer, you can just PM me, I can do these things for probably close to $50~, or if you want the same as Blackstone, I can do it for $25. the interpretation is more $ though but you get good stuff. I like to think of it this way, you can get five sloppy hookers or you can pony up and get the real deal. ugh! I can't believe I was forced to compare myself to a hooker now!
I have a thick skin. I am not afraid of hearing truth. Thank you for taking the time to comment on something you would normally be compensated to do at no charge to me. I truly appreciate it.
All OEM filters, all OEM configuration, never deviated and have owned this car since new. I have used both the YZZ4 filter (most Lexus dealerships will hand you this if you ask for a 2UR-GSE filter) and I currently have a case of the filter intended for the 2UR engines specifically. This last sample was with that filter. Previous tests were YZZ4. I previously changed oil filters every 5k and topped off to restore some of the additive package, but saw no difference in the numbers when I went 10k on changes. I looked for WIX filters and Purolator, but the Purolator does not fit - the end caps are too big for the IS - fine for the Tundra - but not the IS (edit - Purolator have since changed the design to remove the end caps and it has the same appearance as the OEM and WIX filters). The WIX filter is part number 57310 and there is no mention of it being XP at all. Probably because we don't use spin on cartridge filters. Is this the filter I should be buying?
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This engine has been run hard from day one. Not sure why there is no ring chrome in the oil, but it surely isn't from lack of WOT. It went WOT to 140 mph the first day I had it. This engine has seen at least four road course track weekends with 4 - 30 minute sessions each day, and only one cut short a day for a fatal incident on track (not me on track at all at the time, but a good friend).
If Blackstone doesn't own the necessary equipment to do reliable testing, I'd rather pick another lab. I spent many years in the nuclear forensics world, and understand practical mass spec and nuclear decay measurement very well. I have not worked in a petroleum lab, so I know little about how the tests are performed outside of mass spec. I had read some comments on BITOG about Blackstone being less than stellar, but did not realize they are missing some important fundamentals. Testing needs to be repeatable and consistent. It doesn't sound like that's what I have received. I would gladly pay more for the confidence the results and analysis meet reasonably accepted standards.
Without asking for a direct recommendation - what certifications should I look for in a quality lab? What credentials should I look for in a quality analysis?
While it is disappointing to know I've been misled to believe what I am seeing isn't a problem, I'd rather know sooner than later. I can always rebuild the engine, it's not that big a deal.
The one thing that does confuse me is there is zero varnish inside this thing. I just had the valve covers off for the valve lash inspection, and there is no brown death at all. Zip. Zilch, Nada. I would expect to see varnish if the oil were having trouble, and I'd expect to see damage on sliding surfaces, but I don't see anything unusual at all. Keep in mind, I built roadrace motorcycle engines (some won championships in the right hands), and I carefully inspect any engine I pull apart. So I'm pretty confused why I don't see any obvious indicators with the kind of mileage and use this engine has seen.
I fully understand fuel dilution which explains why I see little variation in the oil level over the OCI. It pretty much has to be water or fuel, because I know every engine burns oil. Hopefully not much, but it's impossible to avoid. I had thought it was more from humidity here in Atlanta than from my gas tank. Maybe fuel is what RRRacing's AOS is pulling out of the PCV system, not oil as they suspect, and maybe this isn't as unusual as it seems for these engines.
I know they sell the WIX XP at O'Reilly's but they usually take a day or two to come in. I would recommend the Purolator but if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. use the WIX XP - best for this engine. That's interesting you say you used to change the filter, one of my recommendations would be to have this filter changed more often if you wanted to stay at 14k OCI.
Ironically a gentleman that I work with, is the same guy that started BITOG with Bob. However, things went there ways and he never really got on board with some of the things they were doing. Blackstone's owner is very business savy......he jumped on BITOG knowing it would be a market virtually untouched by the bigger labs(Polaris, Analyst, ANA, ALS Tribology, Test Oils, Tribologik) and no one would look to make sure he was running the lab right. Most people in this game are about volume not making $9 after expenses on an analysis, but if no one is looking, you can make money. He also purchased all of the old aviation files so everyone would by default turn to him.
truly wish I had the time to spend with people on forums, figuring things out, etc but I'm limited to working on large corporate level deals where the cost of data means saving millions or saving lives and in return for my company equals a million or more. I have tried getting into the automotive racing market at the lower end of the spectrum but there's either not enough money or people doing it consistently to make it worthwhile. Other than having seen your data in a split flash and knowing there was significant wear and FD, I would have chalked it up to just forum stuff.
The problem is oil analysis is mostly cookie cutter stuff, looking for significant traces of glycol or FD. To have a deep interpretation of an analysis, that requires years of racing experience, experience spending time with proprietary information formulating oils, etc. Blackstone isn't a horrible lab, but it's not a lab I would trust to go 14K on my car, safely.
Look for a lab with ISO 17025:2005. but that's just to insure the tests are accurate and repeatable. Problem is the interpretation. I'm trying to start a new segment of business at our company for situations like this. Honestly I can give you a much better test than what Blackstone does for $20. If you want to have a real test which includes Gas Chromatography, the only way to really know fuel % in oil, Karl Fischer, only way to know water % accurately, TAN with TBN and both viscosity's 100 and 40c, more elements, I can run them for $50. The interpretation is what we're having trouble pricing, we're thinking around $200 per sample and make it $150 for every sample after.
edit: it turns out the WIX XP is made for this engine.
There is no WIX XP for the 2UR engines. At least WIX doesn't call it that. We do not have a spin on filter system. We have a metal casing with a filter cartridge. The bypass was made by Lexus, so there is no possibility of putting a crap filter system on the engine ever. You could put a crap filter media with poor ends in there, but the only thing you're changing is the media in the core.
I understand where you are coming from. My dad worked for Caterpillar and Cummins both before he retired. I know why someone would gladly pay $200 for a UOA and not bat an eye, and I know the JOAP from my Air Force days flying on WC-135s with TF-33s (not J-57s). That's what got me interested in synthetic oil for my personal vehicles way back in 1989. I too work in a field where the money is good and the impacts can be very large - my customer base starts at Fortune 1. Can't do the small stuff either, although it's a lot more fun in a lot of ways.
Is there an easy way to find a list of qualified labs at no charge to me? Not sure if ISO will share without some kind of remuneration.
Yes, just look on their websites, usually if they carry the 17025 certification, they will post it on their homepage at the top or in the about us portion. the certification only means you're getting accurate results........you then need to find a good interpretation.....
I could be wrong about the XP then, still just go with the WIX and check back on the data, I still swear I got an XP for my RC but I have only had one oil change on my since I bought it two years ago. Also, have you checked the timing chain for any stretch?
Yes, just look on their websites, usually if they carry the 17025 certification, they will post it on their homepage at the top or in the about us portion. the certification only means you're getting accurate results........you then need to find a good interpretation.....
I could be wrong about the XP then, still just go with the WIX and check back on the data, I still swear I got an XP for my RC but I have only had one oil change on my since I bought it two years ago. Also, have you checked the timing chain for any stretch?
Checking the chain for stretch would be immensely difficult. First you'd have to get the valve covers off, that's a good 3 hours all by itself, but you really have no access to them except to view the cam to cam chain. The long one is practically invisible. These shots are at ~63k miles, but the 134k inspection looked exactly the same.
Zero varnish. Weird. I would think fuel blowby would form ugly deposits pretty quickly in the heat of the top end.
Close up of #1 cylinder exhaust cam wear pattern:
The engine has to come out to get the timing chain cover off - at least if you plan to put it back on a clean engine. The other part of that is, chain length isn't nearly as big a deal as it was in the past. VVTi will keep the cams in time electrically or using oil pressure (exhausts are oil pressure controlled), so it's not like the old HyVo chains the Japanese bike manufacturers used to adore - man those were really crap - where you'd spend a couple of hours slotting sprockets and setting time with a degree wheel only to have the cams slowly retard on you as the engine ages (or quickly under racing conditions). My biggest concern now is leakdown. As much as it is a PITA to do, at this point it will tell me just what the condition of the rings is and whether a "freshen up" is in order. But if that's the case, all bets are off because the porting tools will come out, the deck will get set correctly, and I'll make sure I have the advertised compression ratio (I've never seen that actually happen in a production engine off the assembly line), and a few other things. Another small thing - these are COP fired, so there's very little that can go bad from an ignition perspective, and these engines don't get anywhere near as hot as the 2JZ-GTEs do - those turn all under hood rubber to glass in about 10 years (or less depending on how much you push them). When I did my valve lash inspection at ~63k miles, all the seals were still like new. My experience with my Supra made me buy all new stuff to put in, but it wasn't necessary at all. I saved it for the last one I did, and at 134k miles, it did indeed need new seals.
Anyway, I really appreciate taking the time to educate us all. It's rare to have a true expert help the way you have. Thanks!
02-22-17, 08:08 PM
but then again you said THEY didn't care about how long THEY could stretch THEIR oil for? Is it YOUR company or THEIRS? 
