Track Edition Vs. Lexus guest experience
01-30-19 | 10:55 AM
#16
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 605
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From: Switzerland
In my eyes, this was the very "american" thing to do and I would not have taken this route. Especially not with a japanese brand.
I would more have tried to have contact to head staff of Lexus and invite them to a beer and some soba in a good restaurant and drive them home a few time with a rented RCF. There, you would probably have had a much better lever to make your point and make things change.
What I think, is that your opinion was good, but the way it was presented will result in this opinion to be lost in the maze of the bureaucracy of this automobile group.
I would more have tried to have contact to head staff of Lexus and invite them to a beer and some soba in a good restaurant and drive them home a few time with a rented RCF. There, you would probably have had a much better lever to make your point and make things change.
What I think, is that your opinion was good, but the way it was presented will result in this opinion to be lost in the maze of the bureaucracy of this automobile group.
01-30-19 | 11:17 AM
#17
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 605
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From: Switzerland
My vision for the RC range, and specifically the RCF is as follow.
Dimensions are weight. Longer and wider cars are taking more weight. My experience with Seat (and VW in general). Is that a 10 cm wider car, is eating 100 to 150 kg more weight.
This is where I would have kicked it first for the RCF. Reducing the width of 10 cm (making it more simple to drive on small roads), reducing the length of 20 cm (golden number rule), and lessen the eight of the car of 5 cm. This would have had, for sure, 150 kg weight spared, bringing the car back in BMW M territory.
Then, I would have had purposed another body pannel material. Always having the carbon roof, bonnet, adding a carbon fiber trunk, and make the rest of body in the Toyota specific plasti-compound (you wound this same compound at different places of the new corolla). Making the car lighter in the process without adding extra cost. The crazyiest idea would have been to make also those pannels into CF, but I fear the costs of such a move.
Instead of going for carbon fiber brakes, I would simply have used a different brake assembly, made out of steel. It's more reliable and cheaper to maintain.
Instead of going for a Titanium exhaust line, I would have gone for a good quality Stainless steel one. It's less heavier than the old oem, and better from the functionnality and everyday ruggedness.
A bold move of me would have been to ban the differences between the RCF and the regular RC-H. So that scale economies could be make on chassis and body design.
Instead of having 5 different engines, I would have gone for a two engine portofolios, but in different configurations. The RCF, with a new 4L V8 (around 380 hp), and the RCH, with a 2.7L I6 hybrid that would receive, for this task, a twinscroll turbo (around 280hp) with a very specific approach in the way it functions.
The RCF would have been available in a double configuration. The RCF comfort, with all that we have today in our currents RCF. And the RCF Track edition, without electrical seats (replaced by manual and lightweight semi buckets), with less speakers in the car, a simple zone climatic, less ventilators and a simple, easy adjustable suspention.
All RC available with a full transmission choice. CVT, Auto8 or Manual 6. So that a buyer could choose in which way he wants the car to be used. A RC-H with a manual 6, would be as great for spirited drivers as an Auto 8 on the RCF comfort. Just adding flexibility in the range.
Lightweight, scale cost reduction and better fuel mileage for everyone. This was my idea. Feel free to comment.
Dimensions are weight. Longer and wider cars are taking more weight. My experience with Seat (and VW in general). Is that a 10 cm wider car, is eating 100 to 150 kg more weight.
This is where I would have kicked it first for the RCF. Reducing the width of 10 cm (making it more simple to drive on small roads), reducing the length of 20 cm (golden number rule), and lessen the eight of the car of 5 cm. This would have had, for sure, 150 kg weight spared, bringing the car back in BMW M territory.
Then, I would have had purposed another body pannel material. Always having the carbon roof, bonnet, adding a carbon fiber trunk, and make the rest of body in the Toyota specific plasti-compound (you wound this same compound at different places of the new corolla). Making the car lighter in the process without adding extra cost. The crazyiest idea would have been to make also those pannels into CF, but I fear the costs of such a move.
Instead of going for carbon fiber brakes, I would simply have used a different brake assembly, made out of steel. It's more reliable and cheaper to maintain.
Instead of going for a Titanium exhaust line, I would have gone for a good quality Stainless steel one. It's less heavier than the old oem, and better from the functionnality and everyday ruggedness.
A bold move of me would have been to ban the differences between the RCF and the regular RC-H. So that scale economies could be make on chassis and body design.
Instead of having 5 different engines, I would have gone for a two engine portofolios, but in different configurations. The RCF, with a new 4L V8 (around 380 hp), and the RCH, with a 2.7L I6 hybrid that would receive, for this task, a twinscroll turbo (around 280hp) with a very specific approach in the way it functions.
The RCF would have been available in a double configuration. The RCF comfort, with all that we have today in our currents RCF. And the RCF Track edition, without electrical seats (replaced by manual and lightweight semi buckets), with less speakers in the car, a simple zone climatic, less ventilators and a simple, easy adjustable suspention.
All RC available with a full transmission choice. CVT, Auto8 or Manual 6. So that a buyer could choose in which way he wants the car to be used. A RC-H with a manual 6, would be as great for spirited drivers as an Auto 8 on the RCF comfort. Just adding flexibility in the range.
Lightweight, scale cost reduction and better fuel mileage for everyone. This was my idea. Feel free to comment.
01-30-19 | 11:32 AM
#18
Great points above. I am not sure manufacturers care what people think. I was a sales manager for Dodge Chrysler Jeep dealer and we also had a Kia dealer. I worked at both dealers. One day KIA sent us a design team for there new cars to ask what the people who sold the cars thought. We had just come out of the 2008 recession. I had many ideas about KiA's and how to sell them. But basically I told them keep prices down and keep the low priced end of the market. We were selling tons of cheap KIA's. It was a great car line for us. By the time I retired KIA's had grown fancy and way more expensive. They would then complain to us that we were not selling enough KIA's. We were selling half as many KIA's. I told the rep from KIA you can walk across the street from our showroom and buy an Accord or a Camry for the same price as an Optima and personally I would rather own an Accord for the same price. Now Kia is trying to build really high end cars.
I am sure the KIA design team thought we were idiots and was basically pissed they were forced to listen to us. That was my take away..lol.
I think the RCF is an amazing performance car that can still be driven everyday. These auto journalist get out of a brand new Mclaren and then drive an RCF and of course they are biased. They don't have to drive the car for more than a day or two. They don't have to pay for it or fix it when it breaks. They just show up give a quick opinion and then off to the next car. I am betting they trash the Track edition, but we will see. I like the track addition except for the giant wing.
I am sure the KIA design team thought we were idiots and was basically pissed they were forced to listen to us. That was my take away..lol.
I think the RCF is an amazing performance car that can still be driven everyday. These auto journalist get out of a brand new Mclaren and then drive an RCF and of course they are biased. They don't have to drive the car for more than a day or two. They don't have to pay for it or fix it when it breaks. They just show up give a quick opinion and then off to the next car. I am betting they trash the Track edition, but we will see. I like the track addition except for the giant wing.
agreed i spoke with engineers for the the ES line about our concerns. i think they listened but these were all american working in america engineers. I also sold a car or 2 to people who design seats for the lexus and toyota cars. They all seem to be highly intelligent people not one of them happen to be a car enthusiast. When i went to training they seem to stick the enthusiasts and former race car drivers to the training for the new model events to get us salesman pumped for the new Car. I was driven in a LC500 at indy speedway by a race car driver and was actually scared and thoroughly impressed of the grip of that car. Race car drivers can compute things in their brain at a speed normal people can not do.
But this 5 hp increase is an absolute joke and we all know that. So we fall back to the weight reduction and they did 127. When the could have easily done 300 with fixed seats and a Door like the LC that is aluminum skinned and and carbon inner door structure. I had to replace my driver door because of a dear. And the doors are an easy 70 lbs each fully loaded.
01-30-19 | 12:34 PM
#19
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,980
Likes: 2,512
From: Calgary, AB
175 lbs as per spec.
agreed i spoke with engineers for the the ES line about our concerns. i think they listened but these were all american working in america engineers. I also sold a car or 2 to people who design seats for the lexus and toyota cars. They all seem to be highly intelligent people not one of them happen to be a car enthusiast. When i went to training they seem to stick the enthusiasts and former race car drivers to the training for the new model events to get us salesman pumped for the new Car. I was driven in a LC500 at indy speedway by a race car driver and was actually scared and thoroughly impressed of the grip of that car. Race car drivers can compute things in their brain at a speed normal people can not do.
But this 5 hp increase is an absolute joke and we all know that. So we fall back to the weight reduction and they did 127. When the could have easily done 300 with fixed seats and a Door like the LC that is aluminum skinned and and carbon inner door structure. I had to replace my driver door because of a dear. And the doors are an easy 70 lbs each fully loaded.
But this 5 hp increase is an absolute joke and we all know that. So we fall back to the weight reduction and they did 127. When the could have easily done 300 with fixed seats and a Door like the LC that is aluminum skinned and and carbon inner door structure. I had to replace my driver door because of a dear. And the doors are an easy 70 lbs each fully loaded.
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LRCSALES (01-31-19)
01-31-19 | 07:17 AM
#20
Driver
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 157
Likes: 24
From: TX
I would not begin to assume what Lexus wants to charge for the track edition. 5hp and -175 lbs with other small changes doesn't seem like much of a change. I watched the top gear show on the RCF and they were not impressed. That show in itself should have been a good feedback mechanism that is similar to what some have said in this thread....Too heavy, not enough power, tighter suspension..etc.
If I play devils advocate. What does Lexus really want moving forward. As I am not part of the dev team nor part of their marketing. Who knows what their real goal is?
IMO A track edition is a version that strips weight (and amenities) while beefing up power / handling. Not trying to compare apple to oranges, but, wasn't the Z28 by chevy the track version of the camero. They are even sold without A/C to help cut back on weight. That does not mean I want to see Lexus sell them without A/C.
If I play devils advocate. What does Lexus really want moving forward. As I am not part of the dev team nor part of their marketing. Who knows what their real goal is?
IMO A track edition is a version that strips weight (and amenities) while beefing up power / handling. Not trying to compare apple to oranges, but, wasn't the Z28 by chevy the track version of the camero. They are even sold without A/C to help cut back on weight. That does not mean I want to see Lexus sell them without A/C.
01-31-19 | 08:56 AM
#21
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,980
Likes: 2,512
From: Calgary, AB
Clarkson review tells nothing about the RCF other than his resentment for the car for no reason. I mean, he did not say a single positive thing about the car. It put me off about the RCF until I actually drove it. It was a scapegoat for his shameless plug of the LFA. Sure, it is on the heavier side, but all of the cars these days tend to be heavier. Your RCF350 weighs about 3850 lbs as well.
All in all, it was a very unfair and biased causing a lot of damage to the image. It was more about him expecting it to be LFA lite. He did not allow Stig to run a lap, which never has happened in Top Gear history. If Stig ran a 1:25 in 4370 lbs LC500, you can do the math as to what the RCF would have run. To put it simply, Clarkson has professed his love for far inferior cars in the past, but somehow did not allow the RCF to run a lap since it would have contradicted him. Biggest thing is, he later on loved the GSF, which is a huge contradiction all by itself.
All in all, it was a very unfair and biased causing a lot of damage to the image. It was more about him expecting it to be LFA lite. He did not allow Stig to run a lap, which never has happened in Top Gear history. If Stig ran a 1:25 in 4370 lbs LC500, you can do the math as to what the RCF would have run. To put it simply, Clarkson has professed his love for far inferior cars in the past, but somehow did not allow the RCF to run a lap since it would have contradicted him. Biggest thing is, he later on loved the GSF, which is a huge contradiction all by itself.
I would not begin to assume what Lexus wants to charge for the track edition. 5hp and -175 lbs with other small changes doesn't seem like much of a change. I watched the top gear show on the RCF and they were not impressed. That show in itself should have been a good feedback mechanism that is similar to what some have said in this thread....Too heavy, not enough power, tighter suspension..etc.
I.
I.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 01-31-19 at 10:46 AM.
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LRCSALES (01-31-19)
01-31-19 | 12:11 PM
#22
Pit Crew
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 139
Likes: 20
From: n/a
Clarkson review tells nothing about the RCF other than his resentment for the car for no reason. I mean, he did not say a single positive thing about the car. It put me off about the RCF until I actually drove it. It was a scapegoat for his shameless plug of the LFA. Sure, it is on the heavier side, but all of the cars these days tend to be heavier. Your RCF350 weighs about 3850 lbs as well.
All in all, it was a very unfair and biased causing a lot of damage to the image. It was more about him expecting it to be LFA lite. He did not allow Stig to run a lap, which never has happened in Top Gear history. If Stig ran a 1:25 in 4370 lbs LC500, you can do the math as to what the RCF would have run. To put it simply, Clarkson has professed his love for far inferior cars in the past, but somehow did not allow the RCF to run a lap since it would have contradicted him. Biggest thing is, he later on loved the GSF, which is a huge contradiction all by itself.
All in all, it was a very unfair and biased causing a lot of damage to the image. It was more about him expecting it to be LFA lite. He did not allow Stig to run a lap, which never has happened in Top Gear history. If Stig ran a 1:25 in 4370 lbs LC500, you can do the math as to what the RCF would have run. To put it simply, Clarkson has professed his love for far inferior cars in the past, but somehow did not allow the RCF to run a lap since it would have contradicted him. Biggest thing is, he later on loved the GSF, which is a huge contradiction all by itself.
To me as mentioned Lexus are still trying to keep there refinement and luxury with a racecar feel and here in lies the quandary they face weight power and finding that balance I guess.
Im pretty sure if they wanted to they could strip the hell out of it to save weight but in the same breath are aware of what there tried and tested market want.
To me performance wise and HP wise they feel like they will always be behind the other automakers and go for driver experience over the above mentioned.
01-31-19 | 12:17 PM
#23
Maybe like the LFA Clarkson will warm up to some of thee other Lexus product they have.
To me as mentioned Lexus are still trying to keep there refinement and luxury with a racecar feel and here in lies the quandary they face weight power and finding that balance I guess.
Im pretty sure if they wanted to they could strip the hell out of it to save weight but in the same breath are aware of what there tried and tested market want.
To me performance wise and HP wise they feel like they will always be behind the other automakers and go for driver experience over the above mentioned.
personally Clarkson makes me laugh and I do value some of his expertise. But, could give two ***** about what he thinks about what i decide to drive
02-01-19 | 01:27 AM
#24
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Joined: Aug 2012
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From: n/a
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