Lexus was right not betting on dual clutch for F cars a decade ago
09-22-20, 05:11 PM
#1
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Lexus was right not betting on dual clutch for F cars a decade ago
Alfa Romeo Giulia, RS5 and C63 AMG were all automatics. Only F30/F80 M3/M4 were left with dual clutch transmissions. As the new M3/M4 were revealed today, they come with "Steptronic" ZF automatic. No more DCT for the M cars as M5/M6/M8 were already automatics.
Coming from manuals all my life despising mushy slushboxes, I was always so impressed with the snappy/mechanical Aisin 8 speed unit RCF has with the manual mode lock-up. Sure, it has its weaknesses and it really shines only in sports+/manual mode, but still considering its robust, reliable design, snappy shifts/downshifts, I never understood why it gets the flack for not being DCT. Now, it all makes sense why Lexus always knew automatics are the way of the future.
Coming from manuals all my life despising mushy slushboxes, I was always so impressed with the snappy/mechanical Aisin 8 speed unit RCF has with the manual mode lock-up. Sure, it has its weaknesses and it really shines only in sports+/manual mode, but still considering its robust, reliable design, snappy shifts/downshifts, I never understood why it gets the flack for not being DCT. Now, it all makes sense why Lexus always knew automatics are the way of the future.
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09-22-20, 06:35 PM
#2
^^^^I don't know about the RCF. But in my ISF, normal mode was terrible in the 8 speed, much to lethargic. I used Sport mode 100% of the time. In my LC with the 10 speed, I find Sport+ to be too for my aggressive taste. Sport mode is OK, but it wont shift above 8th, and when on the freeway, I want to be in 10th. I find normal mode to be perfect for me. It shifts lightening fast, downshifts just as quick The 10 speed has come a long way since my ISF
Lou
Lou
09-22-20, 06:46 PM
#3
Driver
Alfa Romeo Giulia, RS5 and C63 AMG were all automatics. Only F30/F80 M3/M4 were left with dual clutch transmissions. As the new M3/M4 were revealed today, they come with "Steptronic" ZF automatic. No more DCT for the M cars as M5/M6/M8 were already automatics.
Coming from manuals all my life despising mushy slushboxes, I was always so impressed with the snappy/mechanical Aisin 8 speed unit RCF has with the manual mode lock-up. Sure, it has its weaknesses and it really shines only in sports+/manual mode, but still considering its robust, reliable design, snappy shifts/downshifts, I never understood why it gets the flack for not being DCT. Now, it all makes sense why Lexus always knew automatics are the way of the future.
Coming from manuals all my life despising mushy slushboxes, I was always so impressed with the snappy/mechanical Aisin 8 speed unit RCF has with the manual mode lock-up. Sure, it has its weaknesses and it really shines only in sports+/manual mode, but still considering its robust, reliable design, snappy shifts/downshifts, I never understood why it gets the flack for not being DCT. Now, it all makes sense why Lexus always knew automatics are the way of the future.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/thenewsw...r-way-out/amp/
09-22-20, 07:09 PM
#4
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
^^^^I don't know about the RCF. But in my ISF, normal mode was terrible in the 8 speed, much to lethargic. I used Sport mode 100% of the time. In my LC with the 10 speed, I find Sport+ to be too for my aggressive taste. Sport mode is OK, but it wont shift above 8th, and when on the freeway, I want to be in 10th. I find normal mode to be perfect for me. It shifts lightening fast, downshifts just as quick The 10 speed has come a long way since my ISF
Lou
Lou
Aston Martin and BMW were predicting its demise 3 yrs ago, limitations and reliability as they get older.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/thenewsw...r-way-out/amp/
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/thenewsw...r-way-out/amp/
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 09-22-20 at 08:02 PM.
12-06-20, 08:54 AM
#6
Driver School Candidate
You're kidding yourself if you think the 8 spd in the RCF isn't holding the car back. The transmission (and tuning) is one of the weaker aspects of the car. The 10 spd in the LC is 100x better.
And neither compare to Porsches PDK. Not even close. BMWs PDK is also better, but no surprise they went to an automatic as the automatics improve and at the same time BMW continues to water down the M brand.
And neither compare to Porsches PDK. Not even close. BMWs PDK is also better, but no surprise they went to an automatic as the automatics improve and at the same time BMW continues to water down the M brand.
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rp2000r (12-06-20)
12-06-20, 09:33 AM
#7
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
You're kidding yourself if you think the 8 spd in the RCF isn't holding the car back. The transmission (and tuning) is one of the weaker aspects of the car. The 10 spd in the LC is 100x better.
And neither compare to Porsches PDK. Not even close. BMWs PDK is also better, but no surprise they went to an automatic as the automatics improve and at the same time BMW continues to water down the M brand.
And neither compare to Porsches PDK. Not even close. BMWs PDK is also better, but no surprise they went to an automatic as the automatics improve and at the same time BMW continues to water down the M brand.
You can see in this video and tell me exactly where you do see the transmission holding anything back. I am not saying it is as good as the PDK. I am just saying, I don't see it as a weakness at least, not in manual mode. Auto mode is a completely different story.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 12-06-20 at 12:43 PM.
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12-06-20, 11:34 AM
#8
Chances are, the Porsche PDK and the BMW dual clutches are really fast compared to the RC F's 8 speed. But, this 8 speed aint your grandmother's 4 speed from an old Caprice or something.
In gears 2 through 8 (in manual mode), the torque converter completely locks, decreasing the loss of torque that a normal automatic has. WHP in these cars (on a good day) shows around 400-409, which isn't horrendous drivetrain loss.
The transmission isn't its weakness and the coding isn't it's weakness. I believe that the automatic in these things does quite well. I'm not too sure if you'll see many if any dual clutch BMW's on the road in say, 20 or maybe 30 years. I have faith that this car's transmission and that heck, the entire car itself, is a good reliable base and that you'll probably see these in 20-30 years without extremely terrible issues.
In gears 2 through 8 (in manual mode), the torque converter completely locks, decreasing the loss of torque that a normal automatic has. WHP in these cars (on a good day) shows around 400-409, which isn't horrendous drivetrain loss.
The transmission isn't its weakness and the coding isn't it's weakness. I believe that the automatic in these things does quite well. I'm not too sure if you'll see many if any dual clutch BMW's on the road in say, 20 or maybe 30 years. I have faith that this car's transmission and that heck, the entire car itself, is a good reliable base and that you'll probably see these in 20-30 years without extremely terrible issues.
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05RollaXRS (12-06-20)
12-06-20, 07:56 PM
#9
Driver School Candidate
I disagree. In manual mode/sport+, the transmission does what I ask it to do and when exactly I ask the transmission to do it. At least, that is how mine behaves.
You can see in this video and tell me exactly where you do see the transmission holding anything back. I am not saying it is as good as the PDK. I am just saying, I don't see it as a weakness at least, not in manual mode. Auto mode is a completely different story.
1080p HD - Lexus RCF - CF/TVD - Invidia Q300 Exhaust, AFE Power Stage 2 Cold Air Intake (Highway) - YouTube
You can see in this video and tell me exactly where you do see the transmission holding anything back. I am not saying it is as good as the PDK. I am just saying, I don't see it as a weakness at least, not in manual mode. Auto mode is a completely different story.
1080p HD - Lexus RCF - CF/TVD - Invidia Q300 Exhaust, AFE Power Stage 2 Cold Air Intake (Highway) - YouTube
Chances are, the Porsche PDK and the BMW dual clutches are really fast compared to the RC F's 8 speed. But, this 8 speed aint your grandmother's 4 speed from an old Caprice or something.
In gears 2 through 8 (in manual mode), the torque converter completely locks, decreasing the loss of torque that a normal automatic has. WHP in these cars (on a good day) shows around 400-409, which isn't horrendous drivetrain loss.
The transmission isn't its weakness and the coding isn't it's weakness. I believe that the automatic in these things does quite well. I'm not too sure if you'll see many if any dual clutch BMW's on the road in say, 20 or maybe 30 years. I have faith that this car's transmission and that heck, the entire car itself, is a good reliable base and that you'll probably see these in 20-30 years without extremely terrible issues.
In gears 2 through 8 (in manual mode), the torque converter completely locks, decreasing the loss of torque that a normal automatic has. WHP in these cars (on a good day) shows around 400-409, which isn't horrendous drivetrain loss.
The transmission isn't its weakness and the coding isn't it's weakness. I believe that the automatic in these things does quite well. I'm not too sure if you'll see many if any dual clutch BMW's on the road in say, 20 or maybe 30 years. I have faith that this car's transmission and that heck, the entire car itself, is a good reliable base and that you'll probably see these in 20-30 years without extremely terrible issues.
My opinion... Just my opinion. You guys are kidding yourself if you think the transmission isn't a weak point of this vehicle. It's a good car. But call a spade a spade. Ive driven a few LC500s now, and there's no doubt I'd enjoy the RCF more with that transmission. It is much faster and rev matches MUCH better.
12-06-20, 08:22 PM
#11
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
p.s. I also have driven a lot of cars with various ZF 8 speed, PDK, DSG and DCTs so I have a broad range of exposure to various brands. I already agreed with you that there are more modern/better ZF 8 speed auto today, but RCF is a 7 year old design now. The thread was more about dual-clutches being almost phased out by all of the major brands in favor of automatics. Lexus chose not to invest in R&D of them. Whether RCF's transmission is good or terrible, has no bearing on the fact that dual clutches future is bleak in mass produced cars.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 12-06-20 at 10:57 PM.
12-07-20, 09:46 AM
#12
Driver School Candidate
[QUOTE=05RollaXRS;10947763 Lexus chose not to invest in R&D of them. Whether RCF's transmission is good or terrible, has no bearing on the fact that dual clutches future is bleak in mass produced cars.[/QUOTE]
I am not sure what you really mean by mass produced but imo I dont think DCT are phasing out of the sports car segment. My opinion but I have a PDK and no doubt it is faster. It is also better at rev-matching and downshifting.
I am not sure other than BMW are they phasing out in Volkswagen, Hyundai, Audi, or Nissan. There is probably more than that in mass produced cars if we search.
I think the RCF is a great GT and the auto is fine in that application. If Lexus was serious about creating a sports car AND really concerned about performance why would it not put the RCF on a diet and have a DCT.
I am not sure what you really mean by mass produced but imo I dont think DCT are phasing out of the sports car segment. My opinion but I have a PDK and no doubt it is faster. It is also better at rev-matching and downshifting.
I am not sure other than BMW are they phasing out in Volkswagen, Hyundai, Audi, or Nissan. There is probably more than that in mass produced cars if we search.
I think the RCF is a great GT and the auto is fine in that application. If Lexus was serious about creating a sports car AND really concerned about performance why would it not put the RCF on a diet and have a DCT.
12-07-20, 10:29 AM
#14
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
All of the Audi RS (RS4, RS5, RS7 etc.) cars no longer have DSG except the R8. Alfa Romeo Giulia and Supra feature 8 speed ZF auto. They have all gone to auto. As discussed, all of the M cars are going to autos (M5, M6 were already auto). Now M3 and M4 are going "Steptronic" auto. These are all mass produced European cars I talked about above. DCTs are being phased out in all except some niche low-volume sellers because autos are just getting so good lately. Also, they are far more reliable and easy to maintain over the long term.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 12-07-20 at 10:58 AM.
12-07-20, 11:00 AM
#15
Driver School Candidate
All of the Audi RS (RS4, RS5, RS7 etc.) cars no longer have DSG except the R8. They have all gone to auto. As discussed, all of the M cars are going to autos (M5, M6 were already auto). Now M3 and M4 are going "Steptronic" auto. These are all mass produced European cars. DCTs are being phased out in all except some niche low-volume sellers because autos are just getting so good lately. Also, they are far more reliable and easy to maintain over the long term.
I think we see this a little different. Let me leave this with a few more facts and we can agree to disagree.
A "couple" of the manufacturers adding DCT's in 2020.
Corvette 2020 C8. 20k sold already. Second production line added and GM predicts 40k yr for several years.
Hyundai Elantra and Veloster
Kia Forte
Acura TLX and ILX (I think the entire line now)
Volkswagen Jetta (joins Golf)
Audi S3