GS300_BORICUA

I am at the breaking point of deciding either to get the BMW or the LEX. So my question for you Rx owners is...if you could do it all over again would you have gotton the X5 or stayed with the RX?

spinteews

hrm, tuff question... I have yet tried out a X5 and still want to try one out. Dunno, but i love my rx300 and i dont think i would switch to anything else. Just give it better turning radius and i'll marry my car!!! haha

sleepybobcat

Hi!

I owned a Lincoln Navigator( a disaster ) and then a MB ML430
( an even bigger disaster )

After many, many long test drives in both the X5 4.4 and RX300,
I finally decided on the RX300. Here are my Top 10 reasons:
(drum rolls, please)

1. RX300 much cheaper than X5 4.4 (3.0 not available at the time)

2. RX300 rides MUCH MUCH better than the X5
I feel so relaxed in the RX300

3. RX300 MUCH MUCH queiter than the X5
Sometimes I forget the engine or the car is running!

4. RX300 has a better DVD navigations system, versus X5's
awful CD-ROM based nav unit

5. RX300 has space between two front seats, perfect for
bringing home take-out Chinese food(or a McD Happy Meal)

6. Love the reflective tinting on the RX300

7. Lexus sales & sales is awesome

8. Numerous negative comments regarding defects on
X5 owners forum scared the ***** out of me...

9. Nothing but high praises from current RX300 owners
everywhere... including here on ClubLexus

10. Damn.. I just love the RX300 so much... if it were a girl,
I'd ask the RX300 to marry me... wife said the same thing! :eek:


Bob

mooretorque

Amplifying on # 8: the BMW recall for defective fan switches that have led to a number of engine fires extends essentially to the entire lineup, including the X5.

Regardless, that's a hell of a motor! By I can understand owner's disappointment in having new, expensive campfire in driveway.

willard west

Reasons not to buy an X5:

Expense: even with the small engine after you add a reasonable level of options the price is significantly above RX300.

BMW: didn't they invent the word arrogance?

Reasons not to buy an RX300:

Absent having "just" experienced a poor traction condition, the RX300 AWD is really a Front Wheel Drive vehicle, with as little as 5% of the torque delivered to the rear.

Not truly an AWD vehicle, the 99 and 00 models have three open differentials with a "fluid" viscous clutch coupling in series with the rear drive line. Nominal or latent coupling to the rear wheels is kept quite low, maybe 5%, in order to avoid the additional expense of an over-running clutch like the Chrysler T&C has. Maximum torque to the rear will be no more than 49%, but will likely only reach this level in extremely adverse traction conditions.

Unless they are equipped with rear LSD in the 99 or 00 models one wheel losing traction and you can be stuck. With the 2001 model year Lexus overcame this problem (I hope) by adopting Mercedes Benz' TRAC method.

The entire Lexus line suffers from poor, maybe even bordering on negligent, design of the climate control system. The major problem here is that even when the outside air temperature is below freezing and the A/C system ansolutely cannot be used to dehumidify the incoming airflow the Lexus windshield defrost/defog/demist mode will still blow COLD, quite possibly relatively HUMID air onto the windshield surface if the interior cabin temperature is near or at the system temperature setpoint.

Most modern day automotive climate control systems will automatically activate the A/C compressor (some like the RX, without any indication of same to the operator) as an aid in dehumidifying the airflow to the windshield in this mode. Many of these manufacturers recognize that as the outside air temperature declines the A/C system's ability to dehumidify this airflow also declines, dramatically so below about 35F.

Not Lexus !!

As a matter of fact most european designed vehicles, and some American (American vehicles used to have a higher percentage in this venue but NipponDenso, the TRUE CULPRIT in this, has established a strong beach-head in the US automotive market, via DENSO USA) will start out using a combination of both, first dehumidfying the airflow using the A/C system, and then dramatically lowering its relative humidity by reheating this airflow to elevated temperatures. Then increasing the level of heat added to the windshield airflow to an even higher level, 130F, as the outside temperature declines and the A/C system becomes less useful, and finally TOTALLY useless.

If you own a Lexus and drive it for any reasonable distance in a cold climate be prepared to have the windshield start to fog over as the windshield chills from the cold impinging airflow. This circumstance can have an extremely rapid onset, almost of an EXPLOSIVE nature, if it happens that the A/C compressor has just been shut down AUTOMATICALLY due to outside temperature declining below about 35F. When that happens ALL of the moisture previously condensed onto the A/C evaporator will begin to evaporate into the cabin atmosphere. Be aware that when this happens there is NOTHING you can do to restart the A/C compressor, and even if you could it would be of little use.

If this should happen to you the best measures are to quickly lower the erar windows to exhaust the humid cabin atmosphere, and quickly turn up the system's temperature setpoint (the blower speed will come up automatically as you do this) and then activate the defrost function.

In colder climates, below about 45F, but especially below about 35F, the ONLY sure to keep condensation from forming on the windshield is to keep the windshield surface heated to a level above the dewpoint of the interior cabin atmosphere. You should keep the relative humdity of the cabin atmosphere low by being sure lots of fresh airflow is entering the cabin and LOTS of stale humid airflow is existing the cabin.

The adsolute quickest way to remove condensation from the interior surface is to HEAT that surface.

A minor issue with the Lexus climate control is the fact that DENSO seems not to be aware of the fact that a very big part of the human body comfort equation is the contribution by the effects of radient heating and cooling. The temperature of the surrounding gaseous atmosphere is really less than half of the human body comfort equation.

Not being aware of this, the Lexus climate control will oftentimes add to your personal discomfort by automatically changing the system's exit airflow routiing to the dash outlets as the cabin temperature rises to the system setpoint. Dash outlet airflow, to your face and upper body, that is as much as 20F below the system setpoint, in the dead of winter when the radient effects of the surround outside environment are already having a thoroughly chilling effect on you.

Reasons to buy a BMW X5:

Much more traditional, conventional, AWD approach. Torque bias predominantly to the rear, TRAC to intervene if any wheel or wheels lose traction. Does not suffer from sometimes extremely hazardous torque steer.

Climate control will ALWAYS work properly in all climatic conditions to most quickly defrost/defog/demist the windshield and best satisfy overall human body comfort requirements.

Reasons to buy an RX300.

Ford no longer makes the full size country squire station wagon and you dislike MiniVans.

willard west

If you are really serously considering the RX300 then you really should have a good look at the Chrysler T&C Limited AWD minivan. Like the RX300, it is predominatly a FWD vehicle, but it looks to me as if its AWD arrangement will give better results (much "tighter" viscous coupling to the rear) than would the RX300's.

spinteews

LOL that was way confusing, i was lost when i read your first words... hahha o-well, u were talking about the 99 and 00 versions, how bout the 01's?

willard west

Obviously I like the RX to. I bought a MY2000 RX300 AWD just before New Year's of 2000 and then traded up to the 2001 to get VSC Trac, and HID.

Actually it was the salesman's sales line about why the RX300 with Trac would be more like my previosu Jeeps than my MY2000 that opened my eyes and caused me to actually start looking into the details of the RX's AWD.

The only time I ever took either of the Jeeps off-road was to get around a pile-up of vehicles on the roadbed in the wintertime.

If you have ever owned a Jeep, or any 4WD vehicle with a center lockup differential, any maybe an LSD, and expect the RX300 to perform in a like manner, forget it.

With our Jeeps I always carried tire chains in the wintertime, and even with four chains installed I had occassions when I had to use the Jeep's part-time (locked center differential) 4WD.

LexRX

I have like the styling of the X5 since it came out and thought to myself, "would I rather have that than the RX?" No. I saw an X5 parked next to an RX yesterday at the BMW dealership, and the RX really looks modern, and well...beautiful next to the X. However, if you are looking at the X5 4.4i, it is an awesome looking vehicle. Still, the '01 RX has so many gadgets and such a great ride! Maybe you can wait another year or so for the redesigned RX.

As for the Town and Country minivan...seriously?!? Sure it can have AWD, but its a minivan, and lets face it, image does count. It really does.

-Nick

mooretorque

Willard, are you getting a yen for a Cayenne (to complement your 996, of course)? I'm of two minds about Porsche entering the SUV world (I mean, really, can the apocalypse be far away?) but it certainly ought to be an awesome performer. Haven't heard any tech stuff on the drive system, tho.

wwest

Personally I think the Cayenne will bring about the end of a great marque.

And no, a little but powerful L4 in an SUV would suit me just fine, if they were to option the HL one for the RX I would probably trade up again. For me a more powerful engine in an SUV seems just plain wrong. I just don't see that you can "power" your way out of the situations and circumstances one expects to encounter in a non-offroad SUV.

Finesse seems a more appropreate term.

RXKen

Willard,
No offense, but I'm going to disagree with a couple of statements.

First, with respect to the AWD system our '99 has LSD and we've never gotten stuck, including heavy snow use last winter and a few runs on a sandy/marshy beach, both with the awful Goodyear tires, so I've not personally encountered a situation where the AWD of the RX has been a problem, although we do have LSD and I cannot attest to how much difference that did or didn't make in any situation.

Second, I never, repeat NEVER let the RX climate controls run on AUTO, I manually adjust everything, including where the air is flowing out of and how hot I want any of the air heated coming in. I have never had a window fogging problem unless I've had the temp set wrong or the window has been exceptionally dirty on the inside, if the front window is prefogged, say after a movie or something, it takes very little time to defog it. I can't speak for how good or bad the "Auto" controls are because I never use them.

With respect to the X5, I like them, but YES way overpriced for what you get. I'll take a Cayenne though, as long as it comes in a cabriolet version!

mooretorque

Theoretical considerations aside, I have to agree with RXKen. I bought the identical vehicle and, in the situations that we have here, it's been fine. Obviously in Arkansas we don't get much snow, but last winter we did have two godawful ice storms, and (even on the Goodyears, since replaced with CrossTerrains) had no problems going anywhere or doing anything a prudent individual would want. But it really shines in the rain, of which we get more than enough, and is the main reason that I bought the RX in AWD form.

Willard, I think you once pointed out over on Edmunds that the most important component of any 4WD setup is the driver! (And, as I've said before, I appreciate your continued experiments and exploration into the precise operation of our vehicles......it's a mystery to me why some folks get their panties in a wad over precise and accurate explanations. They'd rather guess?) Where you live is much more of a torture test for AWD systems and, in the interest of getting home with the minimum amount of snow on your boots, I certainly agree with your concerns over the compromises found in the Lex system. But for what I and my family need it for, those issues are essentially outside the envelope.

And for the Cayenne.....well, as I said, how far away can the last trump be if Porsche is building an SUV? Who's next? Ferrari? The only thing that makes sense to me is that Porsche must feel that many of their current customers would trade their Rover/JGC/X5/whatever IF they could have something with Porsche performance (dry/wet weather entertainment, snow/ice capability) and a Porsche crest on the nose in the garage. But it all seems very wrong and has since the first mention several years ago.

mooretorque

Theoretical considerations aside, I have to agree with RXKen. I bought the identical vehicle and, in the situations that we have here, it's been fine. Obviously in Arkansas we don't get much snow, but last winter we did have two godawful ice storms, and (even on the Goodyears, since replaced with CrossTerrains) had no problems going anywhere or doing anything a prudent individual would want. But it really shines in the rain, of which we get more than enough, and is the main reason that I bought the RX in AWD form.

Willard, I think you once pointed out over on Edmunds that the most important component of any 4WD setup is the driver! (And, as I've said before, I appreciate your continued experiments and exploration into the precise operation of our vehicles......it's a mystery to me why some folks get their panties in a wad over precise and accurate explanations. They'd rather guess?) Where you live is much more of a torture test for AWD systems and, in the interest of getting home with the minimum amount of snow on your boots, I certainly agree with your concerns over the compromises found in the Lex system.

And for the Cayenne.....well, as I said, how far away can the last trump be if Porsche is building an SUV? Who's next? Ferrari? The only thing that makes sense to me is that Porsche must feel that many of their current customers would trade their Rover/JGC/X5/whatever IF they could have something with Porsche performance (dry/wet weather entertainment, snow/ice capability) and a Porsche crest on the nose in the garage. But it all seems very wrong and has since the first mention several years ago.

wwest

Hey, if I lived further south, Tucson(?), I'd probably even go for a FWD Prius. And like Mooretorque, I likely wouldn't be worrying about the adverse weather performance of my RX300.

MY verbiage about Lexus/Denso climate control does only apply to folks who attempt to use it only in automatic mode. Most of us who have been around awhile understand that it takes lots of HEAT to keep a windshield free of fog reliably. But even at that I certainly didn't expect to encounter the Lexus/Denso type of operation in defog mode.

So mostly it's a note of CAUTION and the explanation is included because many of us just wouldn't believe something this stupid could be done by Lexus.

And finally, I'm rather sure that I could count on just my fingers the number of times since 89 that I needed to put the Jeep in part-time 4WD. Prior to 89 we had a 2 mile run on a gravel and dirt road just to get to the pavement.