miniround

So, after these 2 accidents...I've decided that my brakes are too weak...

I NEED NEW BRAKES...

now with 62k on my baby, I don't really want to just replace the OEM stuff...I mean, I'm not looking to spend 10g's on a brake setup, but I am looking for something a little better than stock.

If some of you could compile a list of good brakes (pads, calipers, discs) here on the thread...and let me know which are best, best fitting, cheapest, but best!

thanks...

Lexmex

I took TunedRX300's advice and just ordered some Akebono ProACT brake pads.

Earlier this week the the lining on the inner pad on my front passenger side split from the pad itself. Luckily, my uncle had made some emergency front pads we keep just for these screwy occasions (some custom made pads from brake material from a U.K. company called Ferodo that is popular in Mexico). They squeal, but at least they work for the time being. So I am scratching Lexus pads out.

I had tried EBC and Hawk Performance in the past, but up until the current mishap, I found the Lexus pads to be better.

TunedRX300

Actually Akebono supplies Lexus/Toyota OEM pads. Just the aftermarket design is different from OEM design, from my experience the pad composition is also different. Check Akebono OEM customer list
http://www.akebonobrakes.com/oem/index.html
I prefer the aftermarket design because it gives me a integrated wear indicator, less dust, and better bite.

Lexmex

That's a welcome relief.

I figure whatever happened to the pads it have probably has something (ok...everything) to do with my driving style. I had resurfaced my rotors a few times, so the heat may have been higher than before.

If my uncle still has the old pads and lining laying around, will take a photo.

The EBCs from my recollection (Greenstuff) had a lot of dust.

TunedRX300

Just wait to see how many components and fluid break down when your turbo goes into the car

Lexmex

LOL. Well that's kind of why they should put a warning on turbocharged vehicles that says Warning: Contents Under Pressure.

For everyone's information, I still plan to do this project, but I am awaiting on some special pieces that will come into the market in the early part of this year.

One other thing you should add to your list miniround is the type of brake fluid. Currently, I am using a Ford High Performance/Heavy Duty fluid that excellent boiling points for a very low price. I have also used Castrol LMA (which I picked up at the Toyota dealer down here I might add) and for several years the Valvoline Synpower fluid. However, the absolute king in brake fluids (and you will pay for it big time in the wallet) and I have used it, but it contaminates rather quickly, is Castrol's SRF (Street Racing Fluid).

Several others have favored brands like Motul and ATE Superblue.

salimshah

Before we get into detailed discussions on brakes and braking, can you answer the following question:

1. Are you experiencing brake fade? [This happens when you brake frequently and as the brakes heat up their ability to stop the vehicle is reduced. The first few times when you brake, the fade does not exist. This phenomenon typically happens on hilly terrain or racing. Typical city driving has enough interval to cool the brakes ... unless you drive with full throttle or full brakes]

2. When you really apply brakes, does the ABS kick-in? [Your foot has enough strength to push the pedal down and hold it. Wheel is slowed down and then jammed by brakes till the abs sensor starts modulating brakes]

3. You are using DOT3 or better brake fluid?

Answer these, and then I can help you uncover myths and clarify the hypes.

Salim

Carver

You know what you want miniround...Brembos! I've had the Brembo/Akebono combination for a couple thousand miles now and am very pleased, no noise, no dust and the stopping power is superb.

The seller I used has been booted off eBay now but if you run a search they are easy to find. I paid 243 shipped for four cross drilled rotors.

miniround

To salim:

I don't race it...ha ha...except for the occasional "put a kid in his place" streetrace...so i've never really experienced brake fade...

What I have felt is that if i do need to step on the brakes, I feel like my foot is too close to the floor...so I've concluded that I need new brakes.




To Carver:

Yea, I decided that I want drilled rotors from brembo and some nice pads too...I shall check on eBay if you say it can be a steal...if you know of any sellers that are legit, let me know...

salimshah

Sorry for the leading questions but they really lead to what makes a real difference in braking.

Based on your responce, I would suggest having your brakes checked ... start by replacing the brake fluid. Your left toe should easlily slip in and out from underneath the brake pedal fully pressed by right foot.

Once you have the brakes functioning properly, the only thing that would make you stop short or long is ....

Size of the foot print or patch between the wheel and the ground, type of rubber, Weight (inertia) of your vehicle and surface conditions of the road. Since the last item is not in your control and I assume the second last factor is already at minmum that leaves you with the "tire" and the size of the patch (tire pressure and the diameter of the tire).

Pads: Other than life and dust, as long as they can grab the disc to activate the abs, the stopping distance is no different.

Discs: Larger discs provide more stopping torque .. one needs to apply less force to activate abs.... what your foot feels.

Mass + surface area: Larger brakes would be able to dissipate heat better and only help in brake fading.

more cylenders: First order affect is in feel (less foot force is needed) but more travel is required. Second order is that temp of the brake fluid is not raised as much as in single cylender.

So if you keep your tires the same and the weight of the RX remains the same by changing brakes you only change the feel of the foot brake with no change in stopping distance. [throwing out the brake fading].


Net reccomendations:
1. Change your driving habits.
2. Get better tires.
3. If you are experiencing brake fade ... then invest in a bigger brake

Salim

Second order effects:
If you do change the tire size or the disc you need to keep in mind that you will be changing the rotational inertia. If you increase the roational inertia, you will require more effort or time to reach abs activation and conversely if the rotaitonal inertial is reduced, you will need less force.

If you change the master cylender and amount of assist (through power booster) you can also change the feel and amount of travel of the foot pedal. If you dont change the master cyclender and simply change the number of cylenders at disc (which may require more volume of fluid) then you need extra travel of the foot pedal.

TunedRX300

StopTech has an excellent white paper that list the physics and scientific formulas. As one can see, larger brake rotor, multiple pistons, balanced front and rear brake bias, brake pad coefficient and better rubber are inversely proportional to braking distance(e.g. physical distance rather than brake feel).
All of the above factors, when improved, help to reduce stopping distance.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/Th...%20Systems.pdf

salimshah

Clearly one set up is superior and more efficient than the other. But the braking distance is the breaking distance, which with abs is a different paradigm. If we take off the abs and the driver is smart enough not to cause a lock up then, I would whole heartedly agree that the braking distance will be different for different brakes.

Current vehicles equipped with abs, the reccomendation is to jam and hold the brakes and let abs take over. With this in mind the only difference is applying force with a short lever vs long lever. That falls in the catagory of "feel".

It is unfortunate that Carver did not measure the stopping distance before and after the swap. We really need blind test to confirm.

Nothing beats good old logic. The only gap in my logic is, if there is a substantial difference in time to get to grab of the spinning wheel. The frictional difference between the wheel and the road is many orders of magnitude smaller than the pad and the rotor [working brakes ]. With enough force on the brake pedal you get to lock up real quick with OEM or big brakes.

The other hole in my logic is loss of friction between the pad and the rotor due to heating [fading].

The big brake set up will be better or superior than the oem, but it wont stop the vehicle sooner ... unless the driver is so feeble that (s)he can not generate enogh force to lock up the wheels.

Just keep an open mind and think. Before reading various posts on GS forum, my view point was different. With logic I have been convinced otherwise. I will read the white paper to get more information also.

Salim

TunedRX300

Salim,
I think you will like the white paper, when I read it makes me recall those good old days in high school
Put theories aside, let's see some real world data. Here is one excellent test of Nissan 350Z. Professionally done, explained test setup well, and for our interest, they collected stopping distance data vs different brakes, with abs on.
http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm
The stock setup is 117.3 ft average.
You can read the summary of test data table at the end. All BBKs swapped later on the same car reported shorter best and average distances, the StopTech 332mm BBK uses Nissan's stock tire and suspension, so it is more related to our discussion.
Another interesting and related data is braking distances of factory installed brake options 1) one Z with OEM supplied by Brembo 2) another Z with smaller Nissan brake. The result is the same, beefer factory Brembo have shorter distances than factory Nissan brakes.

salimshah

Thank you for good references as it helped me understand the situtaiton little better.

1. Contact patch ... This is a dynamic area which will depend on how the vehicle nose dives ... dynamic weight ditribution per axle... this for brakes will depend upon suspension as well as relative braking action between front and back. Re-calibration or fooling with proportioanting valve (by allowing different volume) is a tricky bussiness and it can help as well as make the braking worse. Now how much? it is debatable ... stock vs big brakes.... but I do see sound reasoning behind it.

2. The issue I have is with the scenario. Although the temprature of the brakes was set below fading but it was set close to fading. I guess the study was done to make claims about stopping distance and for that they needed to elevate the temprature, but it does stack things against oem setup. Just a slight rise of temp and we are over the knee of the curve.

I am glad this forum allows us an oppertunity to raise our awareness, even when we disagree.

Salim

miniround

A special thanks to all physicists in here!

All I wanted to know has already been answered...as Carver said he got those brembo's for cheap...

I know I need new brakes...and i just felt like upgrading a little because i'll probably have my car for a little while...