To RX300 Gurus...Need Some Help!
11-16-01, 04:27 PM
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To RX300 Gurus...Need Some Help!
Hi all:
My wife and I have decided on getting an RX300. We settled on a 2002 with NAV Pkg, but can't decide if we want the AWD or FWD. And we had some questions that I was hoping the group could help us with!
1. Is there any advantages/disadvantages with AWD vs. FWD?
2. What's a good price for the AWD/NAV pkg? We are getting quotes anywhere from $40K to $39.7. The MSRP on this is $42.7. We are in the San Jose, CA area. The invoice is $37.5 (approx)
3. Anybody know when the RX300 redesign is scheduled to happen? 2002/2003?
4. There were some rumors of a "Coach" edition for 2002. Any information on that would also be highly appreciated.
Thanks in advance for all replies!
-chatrathi
My wife and I have decided on getting an RX300. We settled on a 2002 with NAV Pkg, but can't decide if we want the AWD or FWD. And we had some questions that I was hoping the group could help us with!
1. Is there any advantages/disadvantages with AWD vs. FWD?
2. What's a good price for the AWD/NAV pkg? We are getting quotes anywhere from $40K to $39.7. The MSRP on this is $42.7. We are in the San Jose, CA area. The invoice is $37.5 (approx)
3. Anybody know when the RX300 redesign is scheduled to happen? 2002/2003?
4. There were some rumors of a "Coach" edition for 2002. Any information on that would also be highly appreciated.
Thanks in advance for all replies!
-chatrathi
Last edited by chatrathi; 11-16-01 at 05:15 PM.
11-16-01, 08:07 PM
#3
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I will bear through hurricane wwest on the AWD
Actually wwest, you have some very detailed and well thought out views on the RX AWD system. It's just that you constantly bring up the same issues - you're always picking on the RX. I have to defend her!! I will have to say you do a great job of keeping your composure when others disagree with you. No hard feelings.
On the redesign of the RX - it will probably take place in fall of 2002 as an 03 model. I never thought about a coach edition RX - sounds like a good idea
Lexus has already experimented with the Silversport edition. As for the redesign, I would expect to see Mark Levinson stereo option among other increases in luxury. One thing is for sure, the next generation RX will be built in North America (Canada) - in a new assembly plant. No more RX's imported from Japan. I like the idea (and quality) of having a Japanese imported vehicle - oh well, maybe this will bring costs down.
As for the AWD vs. FWD, I would certainly go for the AWD. The fuel mileage isn't that much less on an AWD to make much difference. The F/R weight bias will be better with AWD and you will have more surefooted traction. I don't consider it a question of going off-road or not with an AWD RX. It's more of a rain/snow stability issue with these car based SUV's.
I don't really see any disadvantes to AWD vs. FWD other than the slightly lower mpg. and price.
As for the price, the dealer can can most likely go lower than 3k below sticker. But, its more of a question of whether or not they are willing to. I would deal harshly on price - it's the end of the year, go for it!
I hope that helps some. Does that qualify me as a guru?
-Nick
Actually wwest, you have some very detailed and well thought out views on the RX AWD system. It's just that you constantly bring up the same issues - you're always picking on the RX. I have to defend her!! I will have to say you do a great job of keeping your composure when others disagree with you. No hard feelings. On the redesign of the RX - it will probably take place in fall of 2002 as an 03 model. I never thought about a coach edition RX - sounds like a good idea
Lexus has already experimented with the Silversport edition. As for the redesign, I would expect to see Mark Levinson stereo option among other increases in luxury. One thing is for sure, the next generation RX will be built in North America (Canada) - in a new assembly plant. No more RX's imported from Japan. I like the idea (and quality) of having a Japanese imported vehicle - oh well, maybe this will bring costs down. As for the AWD vs. FWD, I would certainly go for the AWD. The fuel mileage isn't that much less on an AWD to make much difference. The F/R weight bias will be better with AWD and you will have more surefooted traction. I don't consider it a question of going off-road or not with an AWD RX. It's more of a rain/snow stability issue with these car based SUV's.
I don't really see any disadvantes to AWD vs. FWD other than the slightly lower mpg. and price.
As for the price, the dealer can can most likely go lower than 3k below sticker. But, its more of a question of whether or not they are willing to. I would deal harshly on price - it's the end of the year, go for it!
I hope that helps some. Does that qualify me as a guru?
-Nick
Last edited by LexRX; 11-16-01 at 08:09 PM.
11-17-01, 03:32 AM
#4
Lexus Champion
Good summation, LexRX.
I would only emphasize the AWD/FWD difference a little more. You many not deal with snow much but rain is, of course, common, and the stability enhancement is much greater than you might expect unless you drive them back to back in the rain. Highly rec'd. As you may read elsewhere (or soon), the Lexus AWD system has a blind spot or two, but unless you'll be dealing with deep snow frequently or really want to try to off-road the vehicle (something it's not really designed for), you'll probably never find them.
As far as price and mpg difference, you'll recoup some of that difference in the future when you sell or trade next; the AWDs are selling better than the FWDs in the used market.
And it IS the end of the year, but if you are getting an '02 model, the discounts will not yet be huge, since it is early in the model year. But you should still be able to do better than 3k, if that's where the dealers are starting.
Good luck!!!
I would only emphasize the AWD/FWD difference a little more. You many not deal with snow much but rain is, of course, common, and the stability enhancement is much greater than you might expect unless you drive them back to back in the rain. Highly rec'd. As you may read elsewhere (or soon), the Lexus AWD system has a blind spot or two, but unless you'll be dealing with deep snow frequently or really want to try to off-road the vehicle (something it's not really designed for), you'll probably never find them.
As far as price and mpg difference, you'll recoup some of that difference in the future when you sell or trade next; the AWDs are selling better than the FWDs in the used market.
And it IS the end of the year, but if you are getting an '02 model, the discounts will not yet be huge, since it is early in the model year. But you should still be able to do better than 3k, if that's where the dealers are starting.
Good luck!!!
Last edited by mooretorque; 11-17-01 at 03:37 AM.
11-17-01, 04:16 AM
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If you're buying and not leasing, the AWD will most likely yield a better resale value when that time comes. Your pricing for a 2002 loaded w/NAV iin CA is pretty good. JUMP! and start enjoying.
11-17-01, 09:54 AM
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wwest weighs in
Well, I think I might have already been well represented..
I lived in Milpitas for about a year and I would agree that you are not likely to actually need AWD in your area.
Now, I have only recently began to understand, made a study, AWD or 4WD in any detail. A lot of what I think I know came from a web site, 4x4abc.com(?). If you're looking for a real GURU, he's your man. Very goof reading and very educational.
But my personal opinion is that the RX300 AWD model is not truly AWD. First, it uses three "open" differentials with a viscous clutch in series with the center differential's output to the rear differential. Almost exactly the same drive setup as chrysler uses in the T&C minivan, except chryslers is more complex, more expensive, and more likely to be up to the task, overall, if you truly need AWD.
Three open differentials basically means if any one wheel loses traction and you have no forward momentum already you are STUCK! Lexus uses the TRAC system to limit wheelspin left to right and right to left but not front to back, eliminating the need for LSD.
With this drive setup if all four wheels DO have traction the viscous clutch MUST be there to eliminate driveline windup and damage therefrom.
It appears that in the RX300 that is the only purpose for the viscous clutch, its factory preload makes it too "flaccid" to provide any reasonable level of coupling initially, and even with front wheelspin, disparate rotational rates front to rear, it doesn't "rise" to the occassion becuase its "attack" rate, rate at which viscosity increases with temperature is too low.
If you don't believe me, then ask the dealer to show you that AWD works by elevating the front (directly driven) wheels and see if the rear wheels, still on the ground, will move the vehicle forward, even an inch.
The Lexus Nav is useless, if you can get HID without it then buy a Garmin portable GPS.
I lived in Milpitas for about a year and I would agree that you are not likely to actually need AWD in your area.
Now, I have only recently began to understand, made a study, AWD or 4WD in any detail. A lot of what I think I know came from a web site, 4x4abc.com(?). If you're looking for a real GURU, he's your man. Very goof reading and very educational.
But my personal opinion is that the RX300 AWD model is not truly AWD. First, it uses three "open" differentials with a viscous clutch in series with the center differential's output to the rear differential. Almost exactly the same drive setup as chrysler uses in the T&C minivan, except chryslers is more complex, more expensive, and more likely to be up to the task, overall, if you truly need AWD.
Three open differentials basically means if any one wheel loses traction and you have no forward momentum already you are STUCK! Lexus uses the TRAC system to limit wheelspin left to right and right to left but not front to back, eliminating the need for LSD.
With this drive setup if all four wheels DO have traction the viscous clutch MUST be there to eliminate driveline windup and damage therefrom.
It appears that in the RX300 that is the only purpose for the viscous clutch, its factory preload makes it too "flaccid" to provide any reasonable level of coupling initially, and even with front wheelspin, disparate rotational rates front to rear, it doesn't "rise" to the occassion becuase its "attack" rate, rate at which viscosity increases with temperature is too low.
If you don't believe me, then ask the dealer to show you that AWD works by elevating the front (directly driven) wheels and see if the rear wheels, still on the ground, will move the vehicle forward, even an inch.
The Lexus Nav is useless, if you can get HID without it then buy a Garmin portable GPS.
11-17-01, 11:58 AM
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Thank you everybody!
Hi Everybody:
Thank you very much for the useful info. I was aware of wwest's disdain for the AWD system on the RX!
While we really don't need it in our area and for our driving styles (conservative, to the mall and back ), if it boosts the resale value, we are considering it.
As for the price itself, we will be going back to the dealer this weekend armed to the teeth with internet price reports and the good offices of Costco Auto Buying Program behind us
Since the invoice is at approx. $38K, we will probably start at $39 and see where it takes us!! I will keep you all posted.
-chatrathi
p.s.: LexRx, your reply qualifies you as an eminent guru!!
Thank you very much for the useful info. I was aware of wwest's disdain for the AWD system on the RX!
While we really don't need it in our area and for our driving styles (conservative, to the mall and back
), if it boosts the resale value, we are considering it. As for the price itself, we will be going back to the dealer this weekend armed to the teeth with internet price reports and the good offices of Costco Auto Buying Program behind us
Since the invoice is at approx. $38K, we will probably start at $39 and see where it takes us!! I will keep you all posted.
-chatrathi
p.s.: LexRx, your reply qualifies you as an eminent guru!!
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11-19-01, 07:44 AM
#9
Driver School Candidate
I'll sell you mine for $36K. It's a 2001 Vapor Blue, AWD with Nav package, heated seats, HID lights and 6K miles. mrpc12@aol.com
I'm in the San Jose, CA area.
I'm in the San Jose, CA area.
11-20-01, 01:46 PM
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Thanks...but...
mrpc12, Thanks for the offer. But my wife is really fixed on a Black RX! So the Vapor Blue won't work for us. Sorry.
As for the dealer price, I think it will be $38.8 as soon as they locate the one for us. Carsdirect is quoting $40K for that. And they wouldn't budge
Don't know why they say they have a lowprice guarantee when they clearly don't!!!
Anyway, stay tuned in our efforts.
-chatrathi
As for the dealer price, I think it will be $38.8 as soon as they locate the one for us. Carsdirect is quoting $40K for that. And they wouldn't budge
Don't know why they say they have a lowprice guarantee when they clearly don't!!!
Anyway, stay tuned in our efforts.
-chatrathi
11-20-01, 01:52 PM
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Thanks...but...
mrpc12, Thanks for the offer. But my wife is really fixed on a Black RX! So the Vapor Blue won't work for us. Sorry.
As for the dealer price, I think it will be $38.8 as soon as they locate the one for us. Carsdirect is quoting $40K for that. And they wouldn't budge
Don't know why they say they have a lowprice guarantee when they clearly don't!!!
Anyway, stay tuned in our efforts.
-chatrathi
As for the dealer price, I think it will be $38.8 as soon as they locate the one for us. Carsdirect is quoting $40K for that. And they wouldn't budge
Don't know why they say they have a lowprice guarantee when they clearly don't!!!
Anyway, stay tuned in our efforts.
-chatrathi
11-20-01, 05:05 PM
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More frustration!
Just came back from the dealer. Either there is a real shortage of the color combo we are looking for (Black/Ivory with Nav & 4WD) or all the dealers in Nor California are jerking us around!!
Two dealers weren't able to find the car for me and tried to sell me something that I didn't want. For a second I thought I was in a Ford dealership!!
"I don't have what you are looking for, but take a look at this! It's not the color you are looking for, it doesn't have the package you need and it's 2WD!!" Sigh!
Anyway, tomorrow is when they will know the next consignment of vehicles that might come in. Stay tuned in our saga to get an RX!!
-chatrathi
Two dealers weren't able to find the car for me and tried to sell me something that I didn't want. For a second I thought I was in a Ford dealership!!
"I don't have what you are looking for, but take a look at this! It's not the color you are looking for, it doesn't have the package you need and it's 2WD!!" Sigh!
Anyway, tomorrow is when they will know the next consignment of vehicles that might come in. Stay tuned in our saga to get an RX!!
-chatrathi
11-21-01, 08:35 AM
#13
Driver School Candidate
No problem. I've been letting my daughter drive it and she's fallen in love with it anyway.
The market is very soft right now and lot's of competition. Hold out for exactly what you want at the price you want or tell them you are going to walk away. They'll cave.
Good Luck!
The market is very soft right now and lot's of competition. Hold out for exactly what you want at the price you want or tell them you are going to walk away. They'll cave.
Good Luck!
11-21-01, 08:36 AM
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Front drive vs AWD
I live in the Chicago Illinois area where we do have to contend with snow in the winter which of course most people will say I should definetly have AWD. When buying the 2000 RX I drove both front and AWD. First off the most noticeable difference was the FWD was quicker off the line. It definetly has more pick up then the RWD. I took into considerateion the extra money to have RWD. I used that money to buy other options. Out where you live FWD should be fine. The newer RX's have a better tracking system (VSC) then the 2000 had. I also got rid of the Goodyears and switched to Michlin Cross terrains. I do hear the stock Bridgestones are pretty good vs Goodyears which do suck traction wise. Oh forgot the gas mileage is better too. Hope this helps.
11-21-01, 02:08 PM
#15
Re: More frustration!
Originally posted by chatrathi
Just came back from the dealer. Either there is a real shortage of the color combo we are looking for (Black/Ivory with Nav & 4WD) or all the dealers in Nor California are jerking us around!!
Just came back from the dealer. Either there is a real shortage of the color combo we are looking for (Black/Ivory with Nav & 4WD) or all the dealers in Nor California are jerking us around!!
And in terms of price, go no more than $1k over invoice. Not a penny. The market is soft. Use Priceline.com like I did and I'll bet you'll get results. If you use PL then only bid $700 over invoice.
Trust me on this.
And ignore Willard. He doesn't know what he is talking about and has yet to provide any concrete proof other than his opinion and his interpretation of the AWD subject. A 4WD Rex feels like it's on rails, it is not FWD biased.