No oil in oil filter
01-18-08, 09:38 AM
#18
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If I were to use conventional, I would likely use either Castrol GTX, 5W30 in northern climates or 10W30 in southern climates, or Chevron Supreme 5W30, though they do make now a 5W20.
01-18-08, 07:42 PM
#19
Interesting to see the various experiences with flow and filters. My experience has just been with OEM filter and they hold some amount of oil so that when you flip the filter, oil does leak out. As you mentioned, you said that it happened this one time after going to aftermarket filter, so that just may be the reason, just different design.
01-21-08, 08:35 AM
#21
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precisely. all thats happened here is that the antidrainback valve , if fitted, leaked. if the oil filter was plugged or not getting oil, we would be having an entirely different discussion right now starting with... " gee my oil smells like dead fish and the engine makes a LOT of noise"
01-21-08, 10:23 AM
#22
This is the interesting thing...i had been using OEM filters for the past 2 years. And the last oil change (the one with no oil in the filter) was with an aftermarket bosch oil filter (mix up with online order). anybody using bosch filters have a comment? do different filters behave differently?
01-23-08, 09:50 PM
#23
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I guess the lesson is, don't use bosch?
01-24-08, 05:00 AM
#24
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not certain thats a fair conclusion... they are a better than average company in most respects... more likely the lesson is/are:
a) have a look at the factory filter and see it it has anti drainback flaps
and if so,
b) just make sure that any other brand you use is so equipped.
a) have a look at the factory filter and see it it has anti drainback flaps
and if so,
b) just make sure that any other brand you use is so equipped.
01-24-08, 06:37 AM
#25
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I just changed the one on my RX, plenty of oil in it at 147k miles. Also changed my daughters sequoia. Same filter except longer. Hmmm maybe more filter for our RX.
01-24-08, 11:52 AM
#26
not certain thats a fair conclusion... they are a better than average company in most respects... more likely the lesson is/are:
a) have a look at the factory filter and see it it has anti drainback flaps
and if so,
b) just make sure that any other brand you use is so equipped.
a) have a look at the factory filter and see it it has anti drainback flaps
and if so,
b) just make sure that any other brand you use is so equipped.
Bosch used to be good company but has choose to outsource its manufacturings to China (who doesn't) but I think the quality of the design has gone down also.
http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/filters.shtml
The pictures were unfortunately down on that web, but I have cut open the Bosch filter for the RX300 and the bypass valve design is exactly the same.
What Not To Use: Bosch, STP, and Wal-Mart Supertech
While both the STP and the Bosch filters were at one point good filters, they are now manufactured off shore of sub-standard parts. The filter assemblies tended not to have even pleats and generally less media than other comparable filters. There was also a complete lack of a well functioning by-pass valve. With most filters there is an obvious and discrete by-pass valve, but with these filters the can spring and the by-pass valve are the same. The real issue is that in order for the filter to properly by-pass the entire filter assembly would have to move down during use. That is actually not possible with filter assembly properly seating into the anti-drain back valve. This means that the by-pass will effectively never work. In the center of the of picture below you see the filter assembly (top) and the can spring/by-pass valve (bottom). (The can spring / by-pass valve would flip over and into the filter assembly.)
While both the STP and the Bosch filters were at one point good filters, they are now manufactured off shore of sub-standard parts. The filter assemblies tended not to have even pleats and generally less media than other comparable filters. There was also a complete lack of a well functioning by-pass valve. With most filters there is an obvious and discrete by-pass valve, but with these filters the can spring and the by-pass valve are the same. The real issue is that in order for the filter to properly by-pass the entire filter assembly would have to move down during use. That is actually not possible with filter assembly properly seating into the anti-drain back valve. This means that the by-pass will effectively never work. In the center of the of picture below you see the filter assembly (top) and the can spring/by-pass valve (bottom). (The can spring / by-pass valve would flip over and into the filter assembly.)
Note six tiny holes at the end of filter element. These are the passage for oil to bypass and they are sitting on top of the round retainer clip, which blocks the oil bypass passage to the center of filter element. Why? because there is no other device to attach the element to the dome end of the can. The metal clip's primary duty is to securely spring the element so it can't be easily moved by the oil.
This is the exact comment mentioned in italicized portion of the above study.
Last edited by TunedRX300; 01-24-08 at 01:23 PM.
01-25-08, 02:46 AM
#27
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i could be wrong but it seems to me that you are using the terms "bypass" and " anti drain back " interchangeably and they are not the same. those six holes you refer to are the way the oil gets INTO the filter... and if you calculate the area of them you will find that they have roughly four time the area of the largest oil galley in the motor. no flow restriction there.
the orange flapper is the ANTI DRAINBACK valve. its job is to seal those 6 holes when no pressure is present to keep the filter full so that the motor builds pressure quickly on startup.
by pass ( if fitted, its normally in the block UNDER the filter) is for allowing flow if the filter becomes plugged and can't allow any flow or to keep it from exploding on a subzero day when the oil is like cement and the pressure spikes at start up.
they are two different things entirely.
the flapper antidrainback system as shown is used by absolutely everyone.
ive installed probably 10,000 oil filters in my career and probably cut up a 1000 or more of every manufacturer on the planet and i can't remember any with a non flapper type antidrain back. im sure they exist maybe , but ive never seen one that i can recall. its a cheap and simple system but not foolproof by any means. in the case of this thread, as i said a long time ago, i think the filter just drained back because the flappers leaked or the filter installed was a non ADB type ( used on motors where the filter hangs vertically and drainback is impossible).
and thats still what i believe.
number of bad or inadequate oil filters i had pass thru my hands in that time ? zero. you put them on. car drives away. comes back at some point... do it again... and do that for 100,000 miles or so or until they get bored w/ the car and sell it.
.
you can argue the merits of manufacturers of filters until you run out of bytes . that happens on every technical forum in every genre.... you should see the one that the boat guys did.... 11 pages....
but the real world bottom line always turns out the same... any decent name brand will work more than acceptably well in 99.9999999 % of the applications. why ? because the debris load in modern engines is essentially zero. the metallugy is so good that you aren't filling the motor with trash all the time like you did in 1960. and if you ARE , then the filter isn't going to save you anyway.
my maxima has an oil filter the size of about 1/2 a coffee cup. it holds less than a pint... a lot less... and the total area is about 1/16 of a typical fram ph8a. i change the oil every 5000 mi or so w/ conventional petro oil. that motor has 200 k on it with... and this is no exaggeration... ZERO issues. none ever. and i had a boatload of clients that would do essentially the same with all the toyota / nissan / honda motors. lubrication issues are essentially cave drawings when you are talking about modern cars ( or japanese ones anyway)
and with the manufacturing process being almost entirely automated, it matters very little where anything is actually made these days... only where it was designed and by whom.
i am certain there are web sites that will conclusively prove that a wix filter will filter to 1/2 micron and the fram only does a micron and one has a burst pressure of 240 psi and another is 300...
who cares ? your car makes little hard contamination in that range and it makes only 45 psi of oil pressure and there is zero track record of failures or issues. good filters are 8 bucks or so.
keep it simple.
the orange flapper is the ANTI DRAINBACK valve. its job is to seal those 6 holes when no pressure is present to keep the filter full so that the motor builds pressure quickly on startup.
by pass ( if fitted, its normally in the block UNDER the filter) is for allowing flow if the filter becomes plugged and can't allow any flow or to keep it from exploding on a subzero day when the oil is like cement and the pressure spikes at start up.
they are two different things entirely.
the flapper antidrainback system as shown is used by absolutely everyone.
ive installed probably 10,000 oil filters in my career and probably cut up a 1000 or more of every manufacturer on the planet and i can't remember any with a non flapper type antidrain back. im sure they exist maybe , but ive never seen one that i can recall. its a cheap and simple system but not foolproof by any means. in the case of this thread, as i said a long time ago, i think the filter just drained back because the flappers leaked or the filter installed was a non ADB type ( used on motors where the filter hangs vertically and drainback is impossible).
and thats still what i believe.
number of bad or inadequate oil filters i had pass thru my hands in that time ? zero. you put them on. car drives away. comes back at some point... do it again... and do that for 100,000 miles or so or until they get bored w/ the car and sell it.
.
you can argue the merits of manufacturers of filters until you run out of bytes . that happens on every technical forum in every genre.... you should see the one that the boat guys did.... 11 pages....
but the real world bottom line always turns out the same... any decent name brand will work more than acceptably well in 99.9999999 % of the applications. why ? because the debris load in modern engines is essentially zero. the metallugy is so good that you aren't filling the motor with trash all the time like you did in 1960. and if you ARE , then the filter isn't going to save you anyway.
my maxima has an oil filter the size of about 1/2 a coffee cup. it holds less than a pint... a lot less... and the total area is about 1/16 of a typical fram ph8a. i change the oil every 5000 mi or so w/ conventional petro oil. that motor has 200 k on it with... and this is no exaggeration... ZERO issues. none ever. and i had a boatload of clients that would do essentially the same with all the toyota / nissan / honda motors. lubrication issues are essentially cave drawings when you are talking about modern cars ( or japanese ones anyway)
and with the manufacturing process being almost entirely automated, it matters very little where anything is actually made these days... only where it was designed and by whom.
i am certain there are web sites that will conclusively prove that a wix filter will filter to 1/2 micron and the fram only does a micron and one has a burst pressure of 240 psi and another is 300...
who cares ? your car makes little hard contamination in that range and it makes only 45 psi of oil pressure and there is zero track record of failures or issues. good filters are 8 bucks or so.
keep it simple.
01-25-08, 02:33 PM
#28
No, I am talking about the bypass valve, not the ADBV. Here is what I wrote
In the picture above, the bypass valve is the silver clip that mate with the silver end cap of the filter element. Not the orange ADBV, which mate it with the gray end cap.
Filter Council, which is an organization made up by oil filter manufacturers, has detailed white papers that describe the danger of failed bypass valve.
A link from an independent, reputable source would help, rather than "xxx has a great reputation so it must have great products". Everyone can have an opinion, but opinions backed up with independent and scientific data have more value.
Here are some examples, exact quote and link from Filter Council:
http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/88-3R2.html
http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/83-1R2.pdf
Filter Council on filter media.
http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/02-2.pdf
Note six tiny holes at the end of filter element. These are the passage for oil to bypass and they are sitting on top of the round retainer clip, which blocks the oil bypass passage to the center of filter element.
Filter Council, which is an organization made up by oil filter manufacturers, has detailed white papers that describe the danger of failed bypass valve.
A link from an independent, reputable source would help, rather than "xxx has a great reputation so it must have great products". Everyone can have an opinion, but opinions backed up with independent and scientific data have more value.
Here are some examples, exact quote and link from Filter Council:
http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/88-3R2.html
Oil filters are designed to withstand, without collapsing, differential pressures significantly greater than those experienced under normal operating conditions. Therefore, when a center tube or element has collapsed, it is usually the result of a "sticking" or otherwise malfunctioning by-pass valve.
A collapsed center tube or element can lead to a loss of filtration and oil flow to the engine. There is the possibility that interior parts of the filter or filter media may be physically displaced and could migrate into the oiling system interfering with the oil flow.
The malfunction of the filter by-pass valve, as well as the subsequent collapse of the center tube or element, may not be visually apparent. However, a catastrophic failure of the engine may result due to the seizure of a piston, connecting rod, or main crankshaft bearings among other failure possibilities
A collapsed center tube or element can lead to a loss of filtration and oil flow to the engine. There is the possibility that interior parts of the filter or filter media may be physically displaced and could migrate into the oiling system interfering with the oil flow.
The malfunction of the filter by-pass valve, as well as the subsequent collapse of the center tube or element, may not be visually apparent. However, a catastrophic failure of the engine may result due to the seizure of a piston, connecting rod, or main crankshaft bearings among other failure possibilities
If the regulating valve still remains stuck, the pressure will increase further and the
gasket between the filter and the base can be blown out. This will probably cause
the loss of all the oil in the system. If the filter has been installed on the tight side, the
gasket may not blow out and the lockseam will unwind as the pressure continues to
rise. The main point is that the deformed filter is not the cause of this excessive
pressure, but is the victim of a faulty regulating valve.
If the customer is alert and shuts the engine off at the first sign of trouble (red light
on or reduced oil pressure) they can limit their loss to a tow job, oil change and new
filter. If the vehicle continues to be driven, engine failure is probable.
gasket between the filter and the base can be blown out. This will probably cause
the loss of all the oil in the system. If the filter has been installed on the tight side, the
gasket may not blow out and the lockseam will unwind as the pressure continues to
rise. The main point is that the deformed filter is not the cause of this excessive
pressure, but is the victim of a faulty regulating valve.
If the customer is alert and shuts the engine off at the first sign of trouble (red light
on or reduced oil pressure) they can limit their loss to a tow job, oil change and new
filter. If the vehicle continues to be driven, engine failure is probable.
http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/02-2.pdf
It should be noted that filter manufacturers usually have between 50 and 75
different media grades at their disposal. Some of these are proprietary to a
particular manufacturer and some are more commonly used across the entire
industry... Today's automotive and heavy duty filtration needs are very different than those
of just 20 to 25 years ago. Media design, construction and availability has
changed to meet the performance needs of today's systems. Media research and
development continues to be very dynamic to insure the needs of future systems
are met.
different media grades at their disposal. Some of these are proprietary to a
particular manufacturer and some are more commonly used across the entire
industry... Today's automotive and heavy duty filtration needs are very different than those
of just 20 to 25 years ago. Media design, construction and availability has
changed to meet the performance needs of today's systems. Media research and
development continues to be very dynamic to insure the needs of future systems
are met.
Last edited by TunedRX300; 01-25-08 at 08:13 PM.
01-26-08, 02:35 AM
#29
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i think you have misread what is written in those links.
" When a collapsed center tube or element is discovered, the natural tendency is to assume something is wrong with the filter (Fig. 1). This is not the case, but is a symptom of problems with internal engine components.
Most engines incorporate within the oiling system a by-pass valve across the inlet and outlet of the full flow oil filter. The valve is designed to open and by-pass oil around the filter and/or element when the restriction reaches its opening pressure (Fig. 2). The by-pass flow circuit insures oil flow to the engine when there is a significant restriction across the filter due to plugging or cold start conditions. Typically, engine manufacturers design by-pass valves to open at a pressure differential of approximately 10 to 30 psid with some as low as 4 psid (28 kPad), with some opening as high as 75 psid (500 kPad). Some engine manufacturers have the by-pass valve located in the filter mounting base on the engine, while others locate the valve in the filter. Either way, the same purpose is served."
there is no bypass valve or system built into any filter i know of. oil comes in the outer holes and out thru the center tube... just as they say in all your links.
if the relief valve in the motor hangs up or fails the filter sees all the pressure that is generated and has zero ability to bleed it off in any way.
there is no relief system in in the filter assy sytem at all. some filter have a war emergency bypass that allow minimal flow if the media is completey clogged , at which point it is academic anyway , but thats not the issue.
1) nothing in any of those links discusses or even mentions filter by passes... just oil pressure relief valves that are part of the motor... what i said in the first place.
2) nothing in those links even remotely addresses why this guys filter has drained down.... a very simple question and answer that got answered , i believe correctly, by the guy that posted before me.
3) for all your links and white papers ( none of which address the issue) and seeming desire to make manufacturers the villian of all this, the real world facts are a matter of record... not opinion. the occassion of oil filter failures in their own right is near zero. in an entire career dealing with every filter made and in every single street and racing application from indy to offshore i never saw one. i saw them explode when relief valves failed. i saw them leak when badly installed i saw them fill with trash when engines failed, i saw ONE that came off a woman's camry that was original from the day she bought the car and had 112,000 miles on it but not a single one come out of the box and not work as advertised... no matter WHO made it.
it isn't rocket science. stop trying to turn it into it.
" When a collapsed center tube or element is discovered, the natural tendency is to assume something is wrong with the filter (Fig. 1). This is not the case, but is a symptom of problems with internal engine components.
Most engines incorporate within the oiling system a by-pass valve across the inlet and outlet of the full flow oil filter. The valve is designed to open and by-pass oil around the filter and/or element when the restriction reaches its opening pressure (Fig. 2). The by-pass flow circuit insures oil flow to the engine when there is a significant restriction across the filter due to plugging or cold start conditions. Typically, engine manufacturers design by-pass valves to open at a pressure differential of approximately 10 to 30 psid with some as low as 4 psid (28 kPad), with some opening as high as 75 psid (500 kPad). Some engine manufacturers have the by-pass valve located in the filter mounting base on the engine, while others locate the valve in the filter. Either way, the same purpose is served."
there is no bypass valve or system built into any filter i know of. oil comes in the outer holes and out thru the center tube... just as they say in all your links.
if the relief valve in the motor hangs up or fails the filter sees all the pressure that is generated and has zero ability to bleed it off in any way.
there is no relief system in in the filter assy sytem at all. some filter have a war emergency bypass that allow minimal flow if the media is completey clogged , at which point it is academic anyway , but thats not the issue.
1) nothing in any of those links discusses or even mentions filter by passes... just oil pressure relief valves that are part of the motor... what i said in the first place.
2) nothing in those links even remotely addresses why this guys filter has drained down.... a very simple question and answer that got answered , i believe correctly, by the guy that posted before me.
3) for all your links and white papers ( none of which address the issue) and seeming desire to make manufacturers the villian of all this, the real world facts are a matter of record... not opinion. the occassion of oil filter failures in their own right is near zero. in an entire career dealing with every filter made and in every single street and racing application from indy to offshore i never saw one. i saw them explode when relief valves failed. i saw them leak when badly installed i saw them fill with trash when engines failed, i saw ONE that came off a woman's camry that was original from the day she bought the car and had 112,000 miles on it but not a single one come out of the box and not work as advertised... no matter WHO made it.
it isn't rocket science. stop trying to turn it into it.
01-26-08, 10:22 AM
#30
FMC are made by by oil filter manufacturers. They includes members from Champions Labs, Baldwin, Fram, Purolator, Denso. The white papers are written by the organization that represented by these manufacturers, who are often the OEM filter makers for the auto industry.
I think they know a little more filter design than you.
http://www.filtercouncil.org/index.p...c-member-links
The above quote just showed everyone in this forum your credibility.
Did you even try to research on what you post? Google is your friend, and using a search engine is not exactly rocket science.
What does the black round thing called in this picture?
Do you want to go to www.napafilters.com and check out their dissected design diagram as shown below?
This is no rocket science here, you cut open 1000 oil filters and don't know what an in filter bypass valve exists what? Do you know what they look like? I am very interested to know where do you work and I am sure the forum members that as well.
Last edited by TunedRX300; 01-26-08 at 01:46 PM.