Sway Bars for RX?
03-05-06, 09:31 AM
#31
Originally Posted by JZA80MHU38
So just because your experience is similar with your other TL owners friends, that makes it "scientific"? So I can call my experience an "independent academic research study" also.
There is a huge difference in impact felt when one upgrade from a sport sedan such as Supra vs. a luxury SUV. Supra already have stock stiff sport suspension by design, we are lucky RX300 even have sway bars.
Accord V6 (family sedan) has 17mm rear sway, Acura TL Premium (Luxury) has 18mm , TL Type S (sport) has 19mm rear sway, on basically the same chasis. Comptech's 22mm rear sway will fit all three but AV6 owners are benefited by improved handling the most.
Accord V6 (family sedan) has 17mm rear sway, Acura TL Premium (Luxury) has 18mm , TL Type S (sport) has 19mm rear sway, on basically the same chasis. Comptech's 22mm rear sway will fit all three but AV6 owners are benefited by improved handling the most.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question432.htm
Where is your independent verification and scientific data to say that sway bar have minimal improvement of handling? Remember we are talking about a SUV with undersized suspension, not a Supra with sport suspension. Where is your URL link?
How about telling us stock sway sizes on your Supra and what is the size of your TRD upgrade?
Last edited by TunedRX300; 03-05-06 at 10:27 AM.
03-05-06, 12:43 PM
#32
Super Moderator
I really want a sway bar. One of the things when I race is minimizing up and down motion along with side to side motion. It goes back to the basic principle that a straight line is the shortest distance between two points. No one is ever truly going in a straight line whether it be on the track or on normal roads. However, if I can minimize as much excess motion, whether by springs, sway bars, etc., my RX is that much better.
03-05-06, 12:59 PM
#33
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I don't have the size, but TRD claimed the sway bars are 27% stiffer than stock, and the red TRD bars are significantly thicker than the stocks. So given the stiffness of the TRD at 460 lb/in front and 435 lb/in rear, it's going to be around 360 lb/in Front and 342 lb/in in the rear for stock bars.
I am comparing the benefit you get (cornering) and the give-up (ride quality) with a sway. If you don't care about ride quality you lost with the improvement you gain at cornering (amount depends on the stiffness of the sway bar), go for it. It's personal preference.
However, if you really care about performance, I suggest that you get an extra car, with lower center of gravity and a sporty suspension to begin with. Just by putting a pair of Nike track shoes onto an 80-year-old grandma with a bottle of gatorade in her hand doesn't transform her into a track star. Actually the shoes may hurt her knees since there's not enough cushion in her shoes.
I am comparing the benefit you get (cornering) and the give-up (ride quality) with a sway. If you don't care about ride quality you lost with the improvement you gain at cornering (amount depends on the stiffness of the sway bar), go for it. It's personal preference.
However, if you really care about performance, I suggest that you get an extra car, with lower center of gravity and a sporty suspension to begin with. Just by putting a pair of Nike track shoes onto an 80-year-old grandma with a bottle of gatorade in her hand doesn't transform her into a track star. Actually the shoes may hurt her knees since there's not enough cushion in her shoes.
03-05-06, 02:10 PM
#34
Originally Posted by JZA80MHU38
I don't have the size, but TRD claimed the sway bars are 27% stiffer than stock, and the red TRD bars are significantly thicker than the stocks. So given the stiffness of the TRD at 460 lb/in front and 435 lb/in rear, it's going to be around 360 lb/in Front and 342 lb/in in the rear for stock bars.
I am comparing the benefit you get (cornering) and the give-up (ride quality) with a sway. If you don't care about ride quality you lost with the improvement you gain at cornering (amount depends on the stiffness of the sway bar), go for it. It's personal preference.
However, if you really care about performance, I suggest that you get an extra car, with lower center of gravity and a sporty suspension to begin with. Just by putting a pair of Nike track shoes onto an 80-year-old grandma with a bottle of gatorade in her hand doesn't transform her into a track star. Actually the shoes may hurt her knees since there's not enough cushion in her shoes.
I am comparing the benefit you get (cornering) and the give-up (ride quality) with a sway. If you don't care about ride quality you lost with the improvement you gain at cornering (amount depends on the stiffness of the sway bar), go for it. It's personal preference.
However, if you really care about performance, I suggest that you get an extra car, with lower center of gravity and a sporty suspension to begin with. Just by putting a pair of Nike track shoes onto an 80-year-old grandma with a bottle of gatorade in her hand doesn't transform her into a track star. Actually the shoes may hurt her knees since there's not enough cushion in her shoes.
This is a quote from the link I provided. I don't think having a lot of body roll = good ride quality, just as having a harsh suspension = poor ride quality.
If you don't have a stabilizer bar, you tend to have a lot of trouble with body roll in a turn. If you have too much stabilizer bar, you tend to lose independence between the suspension members on both sides of the car. When one wheel hits a bump, the stabilizer bar transmits the bump to the other side of the car as well, which is not what you want. The ideal is to find a setting that reduces body roll but does not hurt the independence of the tires.
03-05-06, 02:54 PM
#35
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by JZA80MHU38
I am just providing my opinion on sway bars because this topic is about sway bars.
"On the BMW, they have a very stiff bar, which NEEDS to be decoupled when going straight. This bar would be completely objectionable when driving on normal bumps, etc. Look what they had to do because they put too stiff of a bar, geez. What does this have to do with upgrading a bar on an RX anyways??? "
Reread my posts. I am not saying the sways are not going to improve the cornering, but at the same time you will sacrifice ride quality when you increase the stiffness of the sway bar, just like how you interpret BMW's ARS system.
Don't get too sensitive here. Yes, this is an RX forum, but it's a discussion about sway, and I am providing examples. If you don't like the example about BMW, too bad. But we just have to get real about which company has better experience making cars with great suspension in general.
"On the BMW, they have a very stiff bar, which NEEDS to be decoupled when going straight. This bar would be completely objectionable when driving on normal bumps, etc. Look what they had to do because they put too stiff of a bar, geez. What does this have to do with upgrading a bar on an RX anyways??? "
Reread my posts. I am not saying the sways are not going to improve the cornering, but at the same time you will sacrifice ride quality when you increase the stiffness of the sway bar, just like how you interpret BMW's ARS system.
Don't get too sensitive here. Yes, this is an RX forum, but it's a discussion about sway, and I am providing examples. If you don't like the example about BMW, too bad. But we just have to get real about which company has better experience making cars with great suspension in general.
Regurgitating what you read about in R&T or some BMW literature isn't the kind of information people look for when they look at a thread in a forum like this. They can go do that themselves. They want information that applies to them or what they are doing, or at least to ask someone who has extensive knowledge about their particular vehicle, or at least what will SURELY happen if they did this or that. Information that is too generalized only confuses everyone and does not constructively add to the information knowledge base.
Now you are saying BMW has better experience making cars with "great" suspension... this is truly useless information for a Lexus forum, and you are not helping anyone here become any more educated.
Tuned RX is on the right track, even though comparing some Honda/Acura parts to the RX parts, this is just his illustration that the RX is sorely lacking in the bar department, which is a valid observation.
03-05-06, 04:23 PM
#36
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I can also say that DoubleWhoosh and TunedRX300 are not helping anyone here become any more educated, too. You may make the reader, any current RX owners or potential shoppers, that the RX is totally under-equipped at the sway bar dept. That's a very general information too to some readers, and may make them feel like the car is totally horrible.
Your saying about upgrading the bar without affecting the ride while increase the handling is just totally bull. If that's really the case, Lexus should have put a thicker and even a solid bar to the RXs anyway from factory, improving the cornering while "not affecting the ride"? From your 'knowledge' it should be such an easy fix with Toyota's almost-unlimited resources. Why don't they do it?
Again, for those potential shoppers who are coming to this board for information and owner experience, who are also looking for a car with better cornering performance, my information may be valuable to them. They can cross shop different brands, and decide if they want to go for the luxury, good service, and reliable product, or the product with better driving pleasure.
In a nutshell, I will like to tell the readers, especially those potential buyers, go test drive the cars first, and cross-shop around. If you really want to try out the sway bar, maybe find someone with a car with a sway upgrade and see if you like it before pulling out your wallet.
Your saying about upgrading the bar without affecting the ride while increase the handling is just totally bull. If that's really the case, Lexus should have put a thicker and even a solid bar to the RXs anyway from factory, improving the cornering while "not affecting the ride"? From your 'knowledge' it should be such an easy fix with Toyota's almost-unlimited resources. Why don't they do it?
Again, for those potential shoppers who are coming to this board for information and owner experience, who are also looking for a car with better cornering performance, my information may be valuable to them. They can cross shop different brands, and decide if they want to go for the luxury, good service, and reliable product, or the product with better driving pleasure.
In a nutshell, I will like to tell the readers, especially those potential buyers, go test drive the cars first, and cross-shop around. If you really want to try out the sway bar, maybe find someone with a car with a sway upgrade and see if you like it before pulling out your wallet.
03-05-06, 10:32 PM
#37
Originally Posted by JZA80MHU38
I can also say that DoubleWhoosh and TunedRX300 are not helping anyone here become any more educated, too. You may make the reader, any current RX owners or potential shoppers, that the RX is totally under-equipped at the sway bar dept. That's a very general information too to some readers, and may make them feel like the car is totally horrible.
Your saying about upgrading the bar without affecting the ride while increase the handling is just totally bull. If that's really the case, Lexus should have put a thicker and even a solid bar to the RXs anyway from factory, improving the cornering while "not affecting the ride"? From your 'knowledge' it should be such an easy fix with Toyota's almost-unlimited resources. Why don't they do it?
Your saying about upgrading the bar without affecting the ride while increase the handling is just totally bull. If that's really the case, Lexus should have put a thicker and even a solid bar to the RXs anyway from factory, improving the cornering while "not affecting the ride"? From your 'knowledge' it should be such an easy fix with Toyota's almost-unlimited resources. Why don't they do it?
Do you own a RX300? I respect your own personal experience but please do not make blanket statement without backing it up with revelant scientific data, and independent verification of other owners.
Last edited by TunedRX300; 03-05-06 at 11:06 PM.
03-05-06, 11:32 PM
#38
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by JZA80MHU38
I can also say that DoubleWhoosh and TunedRX300 are not helping anyone here become any more educated, too. You may make the reader, any current RX owners or potential shoppers, that the RX is totally under-equipped at the sway bar dept. That's a very general information too to some readers, and may make them feel like the car is totally horrible.
Your saying about upgrading the bar without affecting the ride while increase the handling is just totally bull. If that's really the case, Lexus should have put a thicker and even a solid bar to the RXs anyway from factory, improving the cornering while "not affecting the ride"? From your 'knowledge' it should be such an easy fix with Toyota's almost-unlimited resources. Why don't they do it?
Again, for those potential shoppers who are coming to this board for information and owner experience, who are also looking for a car with better cornering performance, my information may be valuable to them. They can cross shop different brands, and decide if they want to go for the luxury, good service, and reliable product, or the product with better driving pleasure.
In a nutshell, I will like to tell the readers, especially those potential buyers, go test drive the cars first, and cross-shop around. If you really want to try out the sway bar, maybe find someone with a car with a sway upgrade and see if you like it before pulling out your wallet.
Your saying about upgrading the bar without affecting the ride while increase the handling is just totally bull. If that's really the case, Lexus should have put a thicker and even a solid bar to the RXs anyway from factory, improving the cornering while "not affecting the ride"? From your 'knowledge' it should be such an easy fix with Toyota's almost-unlimited resources. Why don't they do it?
Again, for those potential shoppers who are coming to this board for information and owner experience, who are also looking for a car with better cornering performance, my information may be valuable to them. They can cross shop different brands, and decide if they want to go for the luxury, good service, and reliable product, or the product with better driving pleasure.
In a nutshell, I will like to tell the readers, especially those potential buyers, go test drive the cars first, and cross-shop around. If you really want to try out the sway bar, maybe find someone with a car with a sway upgrade and see if you like it before pulling out your wallet.
Again, you obviously aren't well versed in design of vehicles - the RX is a compromise design, if they were going for all out handling, of course it would have bigger bars and higher rate springs. But they aren't. And they do TONS of market research to come to the conclusions of how the feel or behavior of their vehicles are by the time they reach production. This is why there is an aftermarket in the first place. But don't rattle off untrue information so matter-of-factly unless you truly know what you are saying. This is harmful and doesn't do anyone a bit of good.
Like I said, TunedRX had some observations, related them to another vehicle, and also related what was being said to some upgraded aftermarket parts. Most obvservations were very valid and were a good example of what is going on with the RX chassis.
I'm sure you haven't seen up close how ridiculously tested everything is on a Toyota/Lexus vehicle is by the time it goes to production, nor have you actually designed and tested a part that would make a vehicle even better than it already is, without causing any undue detrimental effects. This is difficult stuff, and reading a magazine article or two isn't going to give you a full understanding of how this stuff works.
As far as my sway bar statement being "bull", that is such a ridiculous statement - anyone who has any real experience with suspension upgrades would surely agree with what I stated previously. Pretty bold of you to make such an attack when you obviously haven't had much vehicle re-engineering experience. Or wait, did you experiment extensively on your Previa???? Paid someone to put a few parts on a Supra? What an expert that would make...not!
I think the information posted would be agreed with by any RX owner who comes to this forum - they obviously have some further interest in their vehicle than just putting gas in it and driving it around. They have some interest to find more information, or maybe even improve their vehicle from what it is. An RX is a swaying, floaty boat no matter who is driving it, I'm sure ALL RX owners will agree on this one. Some accept it because it is also very smooth and comfortable, but I don't think there is anyone that thinks it drives nicely (as far as turning goes) or would think it's significantly improved with a swap of just springs or shocks. Sway bars would be the way to go for least intrusion on ride quality - basically transparent (springs and/or shocks would cause a helluva lot more ride degradation), and sway bars would also make the car much, much, much safer to drive, especially on the highway and in cross-wind situations. More so than springs or shocks ever could.
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03-06-06, 05:23 AM
#39
Out of Warranty
Gentlemen, we need to cool off here. This is not a forum for name-calling or personal attacks. We all have our own opinions and invective is not going to convince anyone. While this thread has been informative, it will be closed and deleted if these incidents continue. Please re-read the rules you agreed to when you signed up on these forums, particularly the Response to Comments.and Personal Attacks sections.
https://www.clublexus.com/index.php/...ew/2160/1/126/
https://www.clublexus.com/index.php/...ew/2160/1/126/
03-06-06, 05:45 AM
#40
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Yes, Toyota is a company with a goal to make money, but if the sway you mentioned is so bad, that should have a bad impact to their sales, and they should have put a HUGE, SOLID, STIFF sway bars to all of RX during facelift, and the new model, or how about all the other vehicle they make now, if that's all they need to do to improve handling while having no impact on the ride? It should be part of their continuous improvements, right? Or is it that this is not an improvement...
Your information is not scientific, but just opinion and your experience. I don't see my info as more "general" as yours too.
I don't know, but it sounds like someone has found a business opportunity by over exaggerates the product's functionaity so he can try to make a lot of money from it, and now trying his best to defend any opposite opinion that will hurt this opportunity before he can capture it.
It's getting into a "my opinion is better than your opinion" or "if I am right you got to be wrong" type of debate, which is pointless. I've provided my point-of-view, and you've provided yours also. Let those who may be interested in such a product decide (and I have no financial benefit by providing my point of view.)
Your information is not scientific, but just opinion and your experience. I don't see my info as more "general" as yours too.
I don't know, but it sounds like someone has found a business opportunity by over exaggerates the product's functionaity so he can try to make a lot of money from it, and now trying his best to defend any opposite opinion that will hurt this opportunity before he can capture it.
It's getting into a "my opinion is better than your opinion" or "if I am right you got to be wrong" type of debate, which is pointless. I've provided my point-of-view, and you've provided yours also. Let those who may be interested in such a product decide (and I have no financial benefit by providing my point of view.)
03-06-06, 07:22 AM
#41
Originally Posted by JZA80MHU38
Yes, Toyota is a company with a goal to make money, but if the sway you mentioned is so bad, that should have a bad impact to their sales, and they should have put a HUGE, SOLID, STIFF sway bars to all of RX during facelift, and the new model, or how about all the other vehicle they make now, if that's all they need to do to improve handling while having no impact on the ride? It should be part of their continuous improvements, right? Or is it that this is not an improvement...
Your information is not scientific, but just opinion and your experience. I don't see my info as more "general" as yours too.
It's getting into a "my opinion is better than your opinion" or "if I am right you got to be wrong" type of debate, which is pointless. I've provided my point-of-view, and you've provided yours also. Let those who may be interested in such a product decide (and I have no financial benefit by providing my point of view.)
Your information is not scientific, but just opinion and your experience. I don't see my info as more "general" as yours too.
It's getting into a "my opinion is better than your opinion" or "if I am right you got to be wrong" type of debate, which is pointless. I've provided my point-of-view, and you've provided yours also. Let those who may be interested in such a product decide (and I have no financial benefit by providing my point of view.)
I have provided another link that showed mulitiple owners confirm "night and day" difference with an URL link. Anyone shared your view? FYI, they are not my friends, they are indepedent forum members.
I have provied physical measurement of RX300, the very vehicle under discussion and exact sway measurements of a compact car, family car, luxury car, sport luxury sport as a reference. These are scientific data, not opinion.
For the second time, do you own a RX300?
You are right, your opinion is just a one man's opinion.
Last edited by TunedRX300; 03-06-06 at 07:27 AM.
03-06-06, 07:25 AM
#42
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I do agree bigger sways will help EVERY aspect of the drive, but the ride will be worse. The ride will be slightly harsher, b/c the car is more rigid with thicker sway bars. Otherwise, if there was an aftermarket sway bar(s0, I would get them for the RX instantly. Now, the only thing is the RX tires are so thick, not sure how bad the ride would get.
Putting the TRD sways on my GS 400 it turned the car into a totally different machine, like night and day. If ya'll search the GS forum, you will see people that upgrade sways see a huge difference and it depends on the sway.
TRD Blue-thickest bar, best handling, harsher ride
TRD White-Less thick, better hendling than stock, not as good as blue, better ride than Blue
Diazen Sways-in between the 2
I could take freeway ramps at 20mph with much more confidence, any corenering the sways helped and you could TELL the difference. Even driving straight, the car felt more planted.
The ride did suffer but that is a swap I was willing to take. Though I did have 18" wheels so the ride was harsher anyway.
Maybe we should research the Cayenne, X5s, and other sport SUVs to see what sway bar differences, if any, these sporty SUVs have as the SUV gets sportier, i.e base Cayenne to turbo, I-6 X5 to 4.8 X5.
Putting the TRD sways on my GS 400 it turned the car into a totally different machine, like night and day. If ya'll search the GS forum, you will see people that upgrade sways see a huge difference and it depends on the sway.
TRD Blue-thickest bar, best handling, harsher ride
TRD White-Less thick, better hendling than stock, not as good as blue, better ride than Blue
Diazen Sways-in between the 2
I could take freeway ramps at 20mph with much more confidence, any corenering the sways helped and you could TELL the difference. Even driving straight, the car felt more planted.
The ride did suffer but that is a swap I was willing to take. Though I did have 18" wheels so the ride was harsher anyway.
Maybe we should research the Cayenne, X5s, and other sport SUVs to see what sway bar differences, if any, these sporty SUVs have as the SUV gets sportier, i.e base Cayenne to turbo, I-6 X5 to 4.8 X5.
03-06-06, 08:49 AM
#43
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
I do agree bigger sways will help EVERY aspect of the drive, but the ride will be worse. The ride will be slightly harsher, b/c the car is more rigid with thicker sway bars. Otherwise, if there was an aftermarket sway bar(s0, I would get them for the RX instantly. Now, the only thing is the RX tires are so thick, not sure how bad the ride would get.
Putting the TRD sways on my GS 400 it turned the car into a totally different machine, like night and day. If ya'll search the GS forum, you will see people that upgrade sways see a huge difference and it depends on the sway.
TRD Blue-thickest bar, best handling, harsher ride
TRD White-Less thick, better hendling than stock, not as good as blue, better ride than Blue
Diazen Sways-in between the 2
I could take freeway ramps at 20mph with much more confidence, any corenering the sways helped and you could TELL the difference. Even driving straight, the car felt more planted.
The ride did suffer but that is a swap I was willing to take. Though I did have 18" wheels so the ride was harsher anyway.
Maybe we should research the Cayenne, X5s, and other sport SUVs to see what sway bar differences, if any, these sporty SUVs have as the SUV gets sportier, i.e base Cayenne to turbo, I-6 X5 to 4.8 X5.
Putting the TRD sways on my GS 400 it turned the car into a totally different machine, like night and day. If ya'll search the GS forum, you will see people that upgrade sways see a huge difference and it depends on the sway.
TRD Blue-thickest bar, best handling, harsher ride
TRD White-Less thick, better hendling than stock, not as good as blue, better ride than Blue
Diazen Sways-in between the 2
I could take freeway ramps at 20mph with much more confidence, any corenering the sways helped and you could TELL the difference. Even driving straight, the car felt more planted.
The ride did suffer but that is a swap I was willing to take. Though I did have 18" wheels so the ride was harsher anyway.
Maybe we should research the Cayenne, X5s, and other sport SUVs to see what sway bar differences, if any, these sporty SUVs have as the SUV gets sportier, i.e base Cayenne to turbo, I-6 X5 to 4.8 X5.
Do you know anyone makes bigger sways for the RX other than Saner, which is a custom fabrication shop? Lexmex and I are definitely interested.
03-06-06, 10:12 AM
#44
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by TunedRX300
RX300's OEM tire is 215/70/16, a high profile and narrow tire if you compare to Cayenne or FX.
Do you know anyone makes bigger sways for the RX other than Saner, which is a custom fabrication shop? Lexmex and I are definitely interested.
Do you know anyone makes bigger sways for the RX other than Saner, which is a custom fabrication shop? Lexmex and I are definitely interested.
I wonder since the RX is Camry based, can Camry TRD sways fit?
03-06-06, 11:13 AM
#45
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
I do agree bigger sways will help EVERY aspect of the drive, but the ride will be worse. The ride will be slightly harsher, b/c the car is more rigid with thicker sway bars. Otherwise, if there was an aftermarket sway bar(s0, I would get them for the RX instantly. Now, the only thing is the RX tires are so thick, not sure how bad the ride would get.
Putting the TRD sways on my GS 400 it turned the car into a totally different machine, like night and day. If ya'll search the GS forum, you will see people that upgrade sways see a huge difference and it depends on the sway.
TRD Blue-thickest bar, best handling, harsher ride
TRD White-Less thick, better hendling than stock, not as good as blue, better ride than Blue
Diazen Sways-in between the 2
I could take freeway ramps at 20mph with much more confidence, any corenering the sways helped and you could TELL the difference. Even driving straight, the car felt more planted.
The ride did suffer but that is a swap I was willing to take. Though I did have 18" wheels so the ride was harsher anyway.
Maybe we should research the Cayenne, X5s, and other sport SUVs to see what sway bar differences, if any, these sporty SUVs have as the SUV gets sportier, i.e base Cayenne to turbo, I-6 X5 to 4.8 X5.
Putting the TRD sways on my GS 400 it turned the car into a totally different machine, like night and day. If ya'll search the GS forum, you will see people that upgrade sways see a huge difference and it depends on the sway.
TRD Blue-thickest bar, best handling, harsher ride
TRD White-Less thick, better hendling than stock, not as good as blue, better ride than Blue
Diazen Sways-in between the 2
I could take freeway ramps at 20mph with much more confidence, any corenering the sways helped and you could TELL the difference. Even driving straight, the car felt more planted.
The ride did suffer but that is a swap I was willing to take. Though I did have 18" wheels so the ride was harsher anyway.
Maybe we should research the Cayenne, X5s, and other sport SUVs to see what sway bar differences, if any, these sporty SUVs have as the SUV gets sportier, i.e base Cayenne to turbo, I-6 X5 to 4.8 X5.
Taller, more cushy tires only pad the stiffness more, so that would actually allow you to get even closer to this breaking point without any problems.