RX330 vs ML350
11-24-05, 05:17 PM
#16
That's nice, but he's still wrong.
Originally Posted by jaydunn
\
I don't think you are wrong. My RX330 is way quicker than 0-60 in 8.8 seconds, more like 7.8 seconds. I am a Consumers Union member for >25 years and the mag is the last place I would look for 0-60 times.
I don't think you are wrong. My RX330 is way quicker than 0-60 in 8.8 seconds, more like 7.8 seconds. I am a Consumers Union member for >25 years and the mag is the last place I would look for 0-60 times.
I have one. The RX330 is not a 7.8 second 0-60 car driven anywhere approaching normally. It's a nine second car (and noisy doing it). Which is fine, since after all it's a mid-sized soft SUV, not a sports sedan. And 9 seconds is not bad, anyway.
11-26-05, 07:55 AM
#17
Motor Trend result
Originally Posted by jaydunn
\
I don't think you are wrong. My RX330 is way quicker than 0-60 in 8.8 seconds, more like 7.8 seconds. I am a Consumers Union member for >25 years and the mag is the last place I would look for 0-60 times.
I don't think you are wrong. My RX330 is way quicker than 0-60 in 8.8 seconds, more like 7.8 seconds. I am a Consumers Union member for >25 years and the mag is the last place I would look for 0-60 times.
http://motortrend.com/roadtests/suv/...uv/index7.html
A little better than CR's 8.8, but close given the liklihood of different weather and track conditions.
She's pretty, but she ain't quick.
11-26-05, 07:58 AM
#18
7.8 is what Lexus claims for it,...
Originally Posted by Lexmex
8.8 is the stock time for my 1999 RX300 AWD. I know Consumer Reports said 17.0 for the RX330, but I can't remember if they timed the 0 to 60 offhand, but 7.8 has been mentioned before for the RX330.
You may recall that Lexus had to lower their HP ratings as a result of a new SAE standard that does not allow use of hand-picked examples of a car. Would not surprise me if their 7.8 claim is based on a cherry-picked car they found.
11-27-05, 01:09 PM
#19
Originally Posted by nopcbs
...but I don't recall ever seeing a number that low in any of the car books as a result of a test. MT and CR got mid to high 8's.
You may recall that Lexus had to lower their HP ratings as a result of a new SAE standard that does not allow use of hand-picked examples of a car. Would not surprise me if their 7.8 claim is based on a cherry-picked car they found.
You may recall that Lexus had to lower their HP ratings as a result of a new SAE standard that does not allow use of hand-picked examples of a car. Would not surprise me if their 7.8 claim is based on a cherry-picked car they found.
0-60 time is not done for measurment of how fast YOU are driving the car, it is done to see how fast it might be driven. You are probably driving it as 12 second car, but that does not make it one :-).
Lexus does not cherry pick their cars for magazine testings, they get what customers get.
Same goes for ML350, german mags got it at 8.4 sec 0-62, so its 0-60 should be at least 8.6-8.7? :-).
11-30-05, 07:43 PM
#20
It's not bull, it's true.
Originally Posted by spwolf
huh? First of all, please check the facts before posting bull like this. Lower numbers for RX were done with FWD versions, which weight less (best rating was done just slightly over 7 secs). It also depends on how the car is launched - some mags as CD are known for their power launching. There is nothing wrong with powerlaunching at all, nor will it brake your car. Its the same for MT cars, since they are all launched by dropping the clutch at best rpm.
0-60 time is not done for measurment of how fast YOU are driving the car, it is done to see how fast it might be driven. You are probably driving it as 12 second car, but that does not make it one :-).
Lexus does not cherry pick their cars for magazine testings, they get what customers get.
Same goes for ML350, german mags got it at 8.4 sec 0-62, so its 0-60 should be at least 8.6-8.7? :-).
0-60 time is not done for measurment of how fast YOU are driving the car, it is done to see how fast it might be driven. You are probably driving it as 12 second car, but that does not make it one :-).
Lexus does not cherry pick their cars for magazine testings, they get what customers get.
Same goes for ML350, german mags got it at 8.4 sec 0-62, so its 0-60 should be at least 8.6-8.7? :-).
The RX330 version I'm talking about is the AWD which is essentially all that is sold in the mid-west where I live. I think the great majority of RX330's sold everywhere are AWD, anyway. Don't doubt that the FWD flavor is slightly faster, but 7 sec 0-60? Hilarious fanatasy you have there. MT (a car book) did 0-60 in 8.5 in an AWD (see the link in earier message). If you think the FWD flavor can shave 1.5 sec off that, well I can get you a great deal on a bridge in New York.
If you tink brake-torquing does no harm to an automatic transmission go talk to your Lexus service rep and ask him what that will do to your warranty.
- nopcbs
12-02-05, 04:36 PM
#21
Let's be fair...
Originally Posted by russianmd
If Lexus is "only a Toyota", then MB is "only a Chrysler." Fergodsakes, why do they need to bring down the entire brand?
... Toyota created the Lexus brand for U.S. consumption. The same Lexus cars were sold as Toyotas in Japan until recently. Lexi are made with 100% Toyota parts. This is a "good" thing, mind you.
Chrysler did not create the Mercedes-Benz brand and neither did M-B create Chrysler. M-B bought Chrysler. Some Chrylser cars use components made by Chrylser. No M-B uses parts made by Chrylser.
Completely different situations. No analogy possable.
People can legitimately say Lexi are Toyotas since it is true. (Again, this is a very good thing.) No one can say, accurately, that Merc's are Chryslers as it is completely untrue.
12-02-05, 04:48 PM
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by nopcbs
As a result of the new SAE HP rating rules Toyota has had to lower the hp ratings of a number of their engines, including the V6 of the RX330. Story appeared in the past few months in CD/RT/MT or Automobile (I get them all, don't recall which one had the story listing before/after ratings of many brands).
The RX330 version I'm talking about is the AWD which is essentially all that is sold in the mid-west where I live. I think the great majority of RX330's sold everywhere are AWD, anyway. Don't doubt that the FWD flavor is slightly faster, but 7 sec 0-60? Hilarious fanatasy you have there. MT (a car book) did 0-60 in 8.5 in an AWD (see the link in earier message). If you think the FWD flavor can shave 1.5 sec off that, well I can get you a great deal on a bridge in New York.
If you tink brake-torquing does no harm to an automatic transmission go talk to your Lexus service rep and ask him what that will do to your warranty.
- nopcbs
The RX330 version I'm talking about is the AWD which is essentially all that is sold in the mid-west where I live. I think the great majority of RX330's sold everywhere are AWD, anyway. Don't doubt that the FWD flavor is slightly faster, but 7 sec 0-60? Hilarious fanatasy you have there. MT (a car book) did 0-60 in 8.5 in an AWD (see the link in earier message). If you think the FWD flavor can shave 1.5 sec off that, well I can get you a great deal on a bridge in New York.
If you tink brake-torquing does no harm to an automatic transmission go talk to your Lexus service rep and ask him what that will do to your warranty.
- nopcbs
, it won't change a thing.Not sure why we are magazine racing SUVs. That is not what these vehicles are for. Clearly, Lexus knows what the market wants, as the RX 300/330 not only invented the car-based luxury class (the ML is now car based, instead of truck based), not only invented the hybrid luxury SUV, it also is the best selling AND most reliable in class.
Those are not small feats.
Both the Ml 350 and RX 330 have V-6s, the ML with more displacement and is a little quicker. It will not spank a RX 330 though. And to see 2 SUVs race is laughable anyway.
What is an incredible feat, the RX400h makes less power than the ML 500, is faster or as fast with literally DOUBLE the fuel economy.
That my friends is progress.
12-02-05, 04:55 PM
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by nopcbs
... Toyota created the Lexus brand for U.S. consumption. The same Lexus cars were sold as Toyotas in Japan until recently. Lexi are made with 100% Toyota parts. This is a "good" thing, mind you.
Chrysler did not create the Mercedes-Benz brand and neither did M-B create Chrysler. M-B bought Chrysler. Some Chrylser cars use components made by Chrylser. No M-B uses parts made by Chrylser.
Completely different situations. No analogy possable.
People can legitimately say Lexi are Toyotas since it is true. (Again, this is a very good thing.) No one can say, accurately, that Merc's are Chryslers as it is completely untrue.
Chrysler did not create the Mercedes-Benz brand and neither did M-B create Chrysler. M-B bought Chrysler. Some Chrylser cars use components made by Chrylser. No M-B uses parts made by Chrylser.
Completely different situations. No analogy possable.
People can legitimately say Lexi are Toyotas since it is true. (Again, this is a very good thing.) No one can say, accurately, that Merc's are Chryslers as it is completely untrue.
There is no questioning, Mercedes Benz arguably invented the car. Ferry Porsche worked for Benz in the early 1900s. They clearly have heritage. But like Lexus, while Benz was known as a regular brand, like a Toyota, in the USA, they really branded it as a luxury car, this really took off after the Gullwing, more so in the 1970s.
THe USA got the high end Benzes, Europe kept the small, 4-cylider ones. To this day, this is a fact. Let's not forget the E-class has been a taxi-cab in Europe for sometime now. So let's state ALL the facts, if we are going to just call Lexus "Toyota".
A very little known fact, Mercedes-Benz SHARES Chrysler parts. Managment made the decision, they will FLAUNT the fact when Chrysler gets Mercedes engineering, but they, BY ORDER, will mask and hide any Chrysler sharing of parts with Mercedes. Clearly if this got out, pretty much all prestige is lost.
The point of my post is not to say one brand is superior to the other. My point is for us to see EVERYTHING, as much as possible, so we can make better judgements and make more accurate debates.
12-03-05, 07:17 AM
#26
Not quite
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Lexus is a global brand. It debuted in the USA as well as Europe and other countries the same time. Its not like they were Toyotas and they just decided to import then as Lexus. The brand was new from the ground up. Only in Japan were they re-badged as Toyotas, odd as this sounds.
There is no questioning, Mercedes Benz arguably invented the car. Ferry Porsche worked for Benz in the early 1900s. They clearly have heritage. But like Lexus, while Benz was known as a regular brand, like a Toyota, in the USA, they really branded it as a luxury car, this really took off after the Gullwing, more so in the 1970s.
THe USA got the high end Benzes, Europe kept the small, 4-cylider ones. To this day, this is a fact. Let's not forget the E-class has been a taxi-cab in Europe for sometime now. So let's state ALL the facts, if we are going to just call Lexus "Toyota".
A very little known fact, Mercedes-Benz SHARES Chrysler parts. Managment made the decision, they will FLAUNT the fact when Chrysler gets Mercedes engineering, but they, BY ORDER, will mask and hide any Chrysler sharing of parts with Mercedes. Clearly if this got out, pretty much all prestige is lost.
The point of my post is not to say one brand is superior to the other. My point is for us to see EVERYTHING, as much as possible, so we can make better judgements and make more accurate debates.
There is no questioning, Mercedes Benz arguably invented the car. Ferry Porsche worked for Benz in the early 1900s. They clearly have heritage. But like Lexus, while Benz was known as a regular brand, like a Toyota, in the USA, they really branded it as a luxury car, this really took off after the Gullwing, more so in the 1970s.
THe USA got the high end Benzes, Europe kept the small, 4-cylider ones. To this day, this is a fact. Let's not forget the E-class has been a taxi-cab in Europe for sometime now. So let's state ALL the facts, if we are going to just call Lexus "Toyota".
A very little known fact, Mercedes-Benz SHARES Chrysler parts. Managment made the decision, they will FLAUNT the fact when Chrysler gets Mercedes engineering, but they, BY ORDER, will mask and hide any Chrysler sharing of parts with Mercedes. Clearly if this got out, pretty much all prestige is lost.
The point of my post is not to say one brand is superior to the other. My point is for us to see EVERYTHING, as much as possible, so we can make better judgements and make more accurate debates.
Lts start with a quote: "Not only are Lexus re-launching in the UK and Western Europe they will be launching the brand for the first time in Japan in August this year where 150 newly designed dealerships will all open on the same day throughout the country. Lexus sales in emerging Eastern European countries are also part of the sales growth programme.
World sales of Lexus models through 450 dealer centres in 2004 were 358,000 vehicles, an increase of 10 per cent. The US market, where Lexus has been the number one luxury car brand for the last five years, achieved 290,000 sales last year.
In Europe 2004 sales reached a modest record level of 25,000, an increase of 15 per cent. Stuart McCullough, Director Lexus Division Europe said this week, “By the end of the decade Lexus in Europe will be selling 65,000 units through 350 dedicated Lexus retailers which will be in place within the next three years. Currently we have 233 outlets”.
This is from http://www.japanesecarfans.com/featu...1/lexus/1.html
Look at the 2004 Lexus sales numbers in the U.S. and in all of Europe. Lexus is a small bit player in Europe. Lexus was a brand created by Toyota to sell up-scale models of Toyotas in the U.S. Only very recently was there a Lexus brand in Japan itself (where our Lexi were sold as what they are: Toyotas - again this is NOt a bad thing, just honest). If the Lexus brand was created to sell world-wide, then it is a miserable failure everywhere except the U.S. You are exactly wrong, by the way, Lexi have been "Toyotas and they just decided to import then as Lexus." The most obvious example was the ES250 which was near-identical to the Camry. Recent Es's have been more polished up hard-top sedan versions of the Camry. These cars were and are not new from the ground up unless there was also a new Camry that year.
I really don't get the sensitivity about calling Lexi Toyotas. I have two Lexi and occasionally refer to them as Toyotas, whose products they are. Would you be non-plussed if you owned a Caddy and someone referred to it as a GM produced car? If I owned a Chrysler and someone said it was a Daimler product, they'd be right. If they called it a Merc product, they'd be wrong because Merc is another branch of Daimler-Chrysler than Chrysler.
OK, which Chrylser-produced parts go into Mercs? I know that there is appreciable Merc content in some Chryslers (suspensions, engines, trannys), but I know of know Chrysler content in any Merc. Please advise.
We don't only get the high end Mercs. They still sell a 4-cylinder supercharged version of the C-class, as i recall. It is true, however, that we mostly get the pricey models. The cheaper ones just don't seem to sell well here. There are quite a few (lots) of Mercs used in Europe as cabs. That's because they sell them (mostly) as diesels there (very high mileage and very long-lived engines) with fewer "options" standard (cheaper) and an E-Class is a good size for a cab. WE had a ride in a new E-class turbo-diesel station wagon cab with cloth interior in Venice this year and it was a wonderful cab (and car in general). Our LS400 replacement may be a Merc turbo-diesel E-Class wagon if Merc gets its quality in shape.
OK. Enough of this thread.
12-03-05, 03:35 PM
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by nopcbs
Lts start with a quote: "Not only are Lexus re-launching in the UK and Western Europe they will be launching the brand for the first time in Japan in August this year where 150 newly designed dealerships will all open on the same day throughout the country. Lexus sales in emerging Eastern European countries are also part of the sales growth programme.
World sales of Lexus models through 450 dealer centres in 2004 were 358,000 vehicles, an increase of 10 per cent. The US market, where Lexus has been the number one luxury car brand for the last five years, achieved 290,000 sales last year.
In Europe 2004 sales reached a modest record level of 25,000, an increase of 15 per cent. Stuart McCullough, Director Lexus Division Europe said this week, “By the end of the decade Lexus in Europe will be selling 65,000 units through 350 dedicated Lexus retailers which will be in place within the next three years. Currently we have 233 outlets”.
This is from http://www.japanesecarfans.com/featu...1/lexus/1.html
Look at the 2004 Lexus sales numbers in the U.S. and in all of Europe. Lexus is a small bit player in Europe. Lexus was a brand created by Toyota to sell up-scale models of Toyotas in the U.S. Only very recently was there a Lexus brand in Japan itself (where our Lexi were sold as what they are: Toyotas - again this is NOt a bad thing, just honest). If the Lexus brand was created to sell world-wide, then it is a miserable failure everywhere except the U.S. You are exactly wrong, by the way, Lexi have been "Toyotas and they just decided to import then as Lexus." The most obvious example was the ES250 which was near-identical to the Camry. Recent Es's have been more polished up hard-top sedan versions of the Camry. These cars were and are not new from the ground up unless there was also a new Camry that year.
I really don't get the sensitivity about calling Lexi Toyotas. I have two Lexi and occasionally refer to them as Toyotas, whose products they are. Would you be non-plussed if you owned a Caddy and someone referred to it as a GM produced car? If I owned a Chrysler and someone said it was a Daimler product, they'd be right. If they called it a Merc product, they'd be wrong because Merc is another branch of Daimler-Chrysler than Chrysler.
OK, which Chrylser-produced parts go into Mercs? I know that there is appreciable Merc content in some Chryslers (suspensions, engines, trannys), but I know of know Chrysler content in any Merc. Please advise.
We don't only get the high end Mercs. They still sell a 4-cylinder supercharged version of the C-class, as i recall. It is true, however, that we mostly get the pricey models. The cheaper ones just don't seem to sell well here. There are quite a few (lots) of Mercs used in Europe as cabs. That's because they sell them (mostly) as diesels there (very high mileage and very long-lived engines) with fewer "options" standard (cheaper) and an E-Class is a good size for a cab. WE had a ride in a new E-class turbo-diesel station wagon cab with cloth interior in Venice this year and it was a wonderful cab (and car in general). Our LS400 replacement may be a Merc turbo-diesel E-Class wagon if Merc gets its quality in shape.
OK. Enough of this thread.
World sales of Lexus models through 450 dealer centres in 2004 were 358,000 vehicles, an increase of 10 per cent. The US market, where Lexus has been the number one luxury car brand for the last five years, achieved 290,000 sales last year.
In Europe 2004 sales reached a modest record level of 25,000, an increase of 15 per cent. Stuart McCullough, Director Lexus Division Europe said this week, “By the end of the decade Lexus in Europe will be selling 65,000 units through 350 dedicated Lexus retailers which will be in place within the next three years. Currently we have 233 outlets”.
This is from http://www.japanesecarfans.com/featu...1/lexus/1.html
Look at the 2004 Lexus sales numbers in the U.S. and in all of Europe. Lexus is a small bit player in Europe. Lexus was a brand created by Toyota to sell up-scale models of Toyotas in the U.S. Only very recently was there a Lexus brand in Japan itself (where our Lexi were sold as what they are: Toyotas - again this is NOt a bad thing, just honest). If the Lexus brand was created to sell world-wide, then it is a miserable failure everywhere except the U.S. You are exactly wrong, by the way, Lexi have been "Toyotas and they just decided to import then as Lexus." The most obvious example was the ES250 which was near-identical to the Camry. Recent Es's have been more polished up hard-top sedan versions of the Camry. These cars were and are not new from the ground up unless there was also a new Camry that year.
I really don't get the sensitivity about calling Lexi Toyotas. I have two Lexi and occasionally refer to them as Toyotas, whose products they are. Would you be non-plussed if you owned a Caddy and someone referred to it as a GM produced car? If I owned a Chrysler and someone said it was a Daimler product, they'd be right. If they called it a Merc product, they'd be wrong because Merc is another branch of Daimler-Chrysler than Chrysler.
OK, which Chrylser-produced parts go into Mercs? I know that there is appreciable Merc content in some Chryslers (suspensions, engines, trannys), but I know of know Chrysler content in any Merc. Please advise.
We don't only get the high end Mercs. They still sell a 4-cylinder supercharged version of the C-class, as i recall. It is true, however, that we mostly get the pricey models. The cheaper ones just don't seem to sell well here. There are quite a few (lots) of Mercs used in Europe as cabs. That's because they sell them (mostly) as diesels there (very high mileage and very long-lived engines) with fewer "options" standard (cheaper) and an E-Class is a good size for a cab. WE had a ride in a new E-class turbo-diesel station wagon cab with cloth interior in Venice this year and it was a wonderful cab (and car in general). Our LS400 replacement may be a Merc turbo-diesel E-Class wagon if Merc gets its quality in shape.
OK. Enough of this thread.
Lexus sales still will be a drop in the bucket, but they look to double sales to about 80,000 a year by 2010 I believe. Audi, BMW and Benz are the sales leaders there, the cars and varieties they sell are staggering!!!
And c'mon, the ES 250 was an example? That was 15 years ago and clearly a stop gap replacement until the ES 300.
Good points you did make
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