RX 350 versus MDX.....can't decide!
#137
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1sick,
I post this earlier in early in the thread (wow it is getting too long!): one can not compare 0-60 of setup A vs setup B. Track condition and driver can affect the final results, esp 1/10 difference is huge. This is why magazine use the same track, same driver to yield meaningful head to head competition results.
Also no one can drive around at one RPM. Yes entire RPM band must be considered, how crank power is delivered to the wheels, then how that whp is used to push the car. This is the reason GS350 has the same 0-60 time as GS430 (both are Lexus official #s) even though 2gr-fse has the peak HP advantage over the older V8.
I post this earlier in early in the thread (wow it is getting too long!): one can not compare 0-60 of setup A vs setup B. Track condition and driver can affect the final results, esp 1/10 difference is huge. This is why magazine use the same track, same driver to yield meaningful head to head competition results.
Also no one can drive around at one RPM. Yes entire RPM band must be considered, how crank power is delivered to the wheels, then how that whp is used to push the car. This is the reason GS350 has the same 0-60 time as GS430 (both are Lexus official #s) even though 2gr-fse has the peak HP advantage over the older V8.
Concerning the GS 350 and 430, the newer technology of the GS 350 (direct injection/dual vvti) trumps the V-8. Gladly a GS 460 is coming.
#138
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Kan-O-Z,
I think you miss the point, engine should be designed to accomplish its mission. It is pretty simple, even for non-performance oriented application such as family sedan, mini-van, or XXX, a heavier car that hauls more payload needs a more powerful engine. It is simple physics, more power is needed to push more mass to achieve the same speed given same amount of time.
I think you miss the point, engine should be designed to accomplish its mission. It is pretty simple, even for non-performance oriented application such as family sedan, mini-van, or XXX, a heavier car that hauls more payload needs a more powerful engine. It is simple physics, more power is needed to push more mass to achieve the same speed given same amount of time.
A corvette engine puts out just as much horsepower as a semi truck engine...but there is no way you can stick a corvette engine in a semi truck and actually haul something. Then engine would most likely fail in just a few short minutes.
Once again please study this example:
Lexus LS 460 - 4.6L V8 - 380hp
Upcoming Lexus IS-F - 5.0L V8 - 450 hp
Upcoming Lexus LX570 - 5.7L V8 - 380hp
Ask yourself why didn't Lexus use the 4.6L engine or better yet the 5.0L engine in the new upcoming LX? Did they purposely want to waste money to develop a new engine that put out less horsepower? NO!
Please remember that engines are not about peak horsepower (especially when it comes to an SUV). There is no way they could put a Honda S2000 4 cylinder engine into a Honda Odyssey minivan. Both engines put out 240hp but the little 4 cyclinder would really really struggle to get a minivan going and it would constantly need to be revved very high for normal cruising type driving which would deteriorate the engine...not to mention the fuel economy on the 4 cylinder would be worse than on the 3.5L V6.
Another question for you. What are you going to say when they do bump the RL to 3.7L and it puts out 330hp? Will the MDX be low tech then? Will Acura be purposefully be underpowering the MDX when it could have 330hp? You can bet this will happen shortly.
#140
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As I posted before (twice in this thread), engine peak power is an over simplistic metric. That part we are in agreement. However, I am quite confused why you kept coming back to use that as the sole measurement.
An automaker's design and product tatics is not about how to use a future engine into current and past products, it is about how to use the proper engine in its current portoflio into a certain platform.
Acura picks the most powful V6 into the new MDX, Lexus pick the tuned-down 2gr-fe when 2gr-fse is avaliable. The message is clear, Lexus never wants to put the best V6 engine into the RX350 because most of RX's current customers don't care.
Check out wwest's post on this thread, I agree with his comment
http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums...howtopic=37395
Had Lexus done that with RX350, I will also be lining up to buy the new RX.
An automaker's design and product tatics is not about how to use a future engine into current and past products, it is about how to use the proper engine in its current portoflio into a certain platform.
Acura picks the most powful V6 into the new MDX, Lexus pick the tuned-down 2gr-fe when 2gr-fse is avaliable. The message is clear, Lexus never wants to put the best V6 engine into the RX350 because most of RX's current customers don't care.
Check out wwest's post on this thread, I agree with his comment
Put the GS350's DFI V6 engine/drivetrain and its AWD system in the 2009 RX series and I'll be first in the market to trade up
Had Lexus done that with RX350, I will also be lining up to buy the new RX.
#141
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If one wants to design a SUV that perform on a level similiar to GS/IS, even more powerful engine is needed. That is what Porsche has done. Porsche is an innovative performance leader in luxury SUV: it is the JD Powers IQS reliability leader, always has the legendary performance, and now with luxury and comfort.
Porsche Cayenne is a no good SUV in my opinion. Let me explain why.
We went and test drove a Cayenne S V8 while when we were shopping around for an SUV. The Porsche was simply good an nothing! Lets see when I buy an SUV, I want comfort, I want luggage and storage space, I want room for passengers. The Cayenne did none of these things. I sat in the back seat during the test drive and my knees were bumping into the driver seat! Passenger space and storage was less than a decent sedan! The ride was awful. I could hear everything, feel every bump. The vehicle is big, heavy and expensive and small on the inside. A Toyota Avalon would blow it away in everything including performance, comfort, luggage space and it's fuel economy is nearly double that of a Cayenne which is 14 mpg! Then there is the price of the Porsche which was close to double of the RX (nearly $80,000) with options. Amenities sucked, nav sucked, no gadgetry, nothing.
It's basically an SUV for a 911 driver who was 'forced' into buying an SUV. It does nothing well for an SUV except for 0-60. I don't call 0-60 innovative. Ford and Dodge make pickup trucks that have 500+ hp V10 engines. Do you call that innovative as well?
Porsche missed the mark with the Cayenne. It may be a good selling SUV for Porsche but it's not good when compared to other SUVs. Now here is a car people would buy solely for status or maybe 0-60 bragging rights.
Kan-O-Z
#142
Lexus Test Driver
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There is a post in one of the MDX forum complaining about new MDX instrument panel. This guys counted 46 buttons and three multi-function ***** on the center stack alone on the new MDX with Sports and Entertainment Packages. The steering wheel face houses 10 additional buttons and switches.
Now that is high tech, or a high tech headache for some people. You will need a co-pilot to drive this baby.
Now that is high tech, or a high tech headache for some people. You will need a co-pilot to drive this baby.
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#143
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I like buttons and gadgets, The_G_Man, so maybe that was the main allure to me of the MDX. Their market research must have found that many men to whom they are targeting the vehicle feel the same way.
As far as I am concerned, the MDX beats the RX hands-down on the stuff inside the cockpit (seating, gadgets, etc.), while the RX wins with the rest of the vehicle, old style or not.
As far as I am concerned, the MDX beats the RX hands-down on the stuff inside the cockpit (seating, gadgets, etc.), while the RX wins with the rest of the vehicle, old style or not.
#144
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It's ok. Nothing personal. We're just discussing here. Let me explain what I meant.
Honda S2000 - 240hp/2.0L = 120hp/L
Acura TL-S - 286hp/3.2L = 89.3 hp/L
Acura RL - 300hp/3.5L = 85.7 hp/L
Acura MDX - 300hp/3.7L = 81 hp/L
As you can see, the MDX is hardly the 'highest tech' engine. If they ever bump the RL to 3.7L, you can bet it'll be making more power than the MDX 3.7L (Just like how the Lexus IS/GS 3.5L makes more hp than the RX 3.5L). The MDX just happens to be Acura's largest engine so that's why it appears the MDX has the most horsepower but in reality it's making the least for it's size.
Kan-O-Z
Honda S2000 - 240hp/2.0L = 120hp/L
Acura TL-S - 286hp/3.2L = 89.3 hp/L
Acura RL - 300hp/3.5L = 85.7 hp/L
Acura MDX - 300hp/3.7L = 81 hp/L
As you can see, the MDX is hardly the 'highest tech' engine. If they ever bump the RL to 3.7L, you can bet it'll be making more power than the MDX 3.7L (Just like how the Lexus IS/GS 3.5L makes more hp than the RX 3.5L). The MDX just happens to be Acura's largest engine so that's why it appears the MDX has the most horsepower but in reality it's making the least for it's size.
Kan-O-Z
The problem is weight and horsepower.
A BMW 650 coupe weighs approx. 3700lbs It has a 360HP V8.
A BMW X5 with the same V8 weighs 5300lbs.
So even though they have the same engine, the SUV is well over 2-1/2 tons. It would need a 500HP engine to even come close.
#145
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LOL ~ all this theoretic discussion can NEVER compare to the serious fun that I'm having with my MDX ~ something that I couldn't have with my previous RXs (not even the 04 Performance). But I'm having a BLAST tooting my MDX around town and on the highway!
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#146
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This might clarify the early posts about the EPA mileage on the 2008 RX 350.
Note that it specifies that "These estimates reflect new EPA methods beginning with 2008 models."
Note that it specifies that "These estimates reflect new EPA methods beginning with 2008 models."
#148
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Thanks for capture this picture for 2008 RX350, this confirms Lexus official published EPA mileage for RX350, which = Acura official # for MDX.
Indeed, 2008 model is year EPA requires the start of the new fuel standard and the label, not the 2007 model. Both Lexus and Acura were still under the old system in 2007.
Question to Kan-O-Z when you made the following statement, did you compare fuel standard implemented on 2008 RX350 with 2007 MDX?
Indeed, 2008 model is year EPA requires the start of the new fuel standard and the label, not the 2007 model. Both Lexus and Acura were still under the old system in 2007.
Question to Kan-O-Z when you made the following statement, did you compare fuel standard implemented on 2008 RX350 with 2007 MDX?
Last edited by TunedRX300; 06-14-07 at 06:16 PM.
#149
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Thanks for capture this picture for 2008 RX350, this confirms Lexus official published EPA mileage for RX350, which = Acura official # for MDX.
Indeed, 2008 model is year EPA requires the start of the new fuel standard and the label, not the 2007 model. Both Lexus and Acura were still under the old system in 2007.
Question to Kan-O-Z when you made the following statement, did you compare fuel standard implemented on 2008 RX350 with 2007 MDX?
Indeed, 2008 model is year EPA requires the start of the new fuel standard and the label, not the 2007 model. Both Lexus and Acura were still under the old system in 2007.
Question to Kan-O-Z when you made the following statement, did you compare fuel standard implemented on 2008 RX350 with 2007 MDX?
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2007/lex...407/specs.html
#150
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It's a never ending cycle. When the new RX comes out probably as a 2009 model, the MDX will be approaching middle age and maybe just getting a mid cycle refresh like the 2007 RX350 just got. Then the Acura camp will be saying why are we comparing a brand new design against a generation that will be nearing its end soon
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