The argument on the fuel cost-vs-savings is a dynamic issue. Today it might be almost break even but who knows in 6 months it can be a huge savings as the fuel prices will change.

So how what is the expected life of the batteries (or number of charge cycles)?
What is their replacement cost?
What is the environment impact (100% recycle-able or what)?


Salim

 

concerning the batteries,

i believe there is an 8 year warranty on them, and even then, it doesnt mean that at 8 years, they will need to be replaced.

but if you do need to replace them, you look at some big $$$

environmental impact? still not sure, but i know lexus gives the dealers, or whoever ends up with the battery pack a small check if they turn in the batteries so that they can be properly disposed of.

honestly, if the RX400h was out in 2003 when i bought my car, i would have chosen the hybrid. sure, theres the fuel savings, however minimal, but i also believe that everyone needs to reduce their impact of C02. i think one of my next cars will be the new gen prius

 

We test drove both. We found that the hybrid had an annoying vibration that the 350 did not have and that 350 was smoother. We could not justify a hybrid because most of our driving in this vehicle is on freeway road trips where the gas mileage benefit was minimal at best. I would have definitely preferred a modern turbo diesel motor, but the *thinking people of California* have made them illegal for the time being.

 

Issue #1. How Green is your new vehicle? BTW, the 400h will ride better and feel more solid. The batteries make the vehicle much heavier and the suspension is modified as a result (but it still gets 30% better mileage) on average.

Two relatives recently bought Camry's and one was a '09 Hybrid. The 4 cylinder Hybrid rode much better than the base '08 with a 4 cylinder. I was amazed that the Hybrid seemed to ride like I was driving a car costing 10K more.

Don't forget that Diesel engines emit cancer causing carcinogens. Considerably more than gasoline engines. "Clean Diesel" means the "particulates" they emit are lessened. The really serious stuff, like cancer causing carcinogens are 10 fold worse with a diesel. This is why Toyota/Lexus doesn't do the Diesel thing.

 

I dont think anyone here is saying Diesel is green, in fact, its the opposite.

 

Cool I was just replying to a comment made earlier by a member saying a diesel had a better sound under-hood than a Hybrid.

 

yeah, diesel has a better sound if you are into Mack trucks

 

It seems like people on this forum think that weight is a good thing! I think that's a negative against hybrids. I think the way it rides is more of a personal opinion. We have a 350 and feel that it's smoother than the 400h loaner that we had. Perhaps the loaner was more beat up or had more miles but it just didn't feel as buttery smooth as the 350. The CVT felt rough and loud when it revs up.

As far as fuel economy, we pretty much get 25mpg on any extended highway trips. We get about 20mpg in mixed driving. Perhaps the fuel economy on the 350 is not as good as the hybrid but it's surely pretty darn close (assuming you don't do 90% of your driving in city rush hour at 10mph).

Kan-O-Z

 

I agree, I get the same MPG as you do with my RX350.

 

I compared the hylander hybrid to the RX350, and even though the Lexus dealer is kind of on the other side of the world but the Toyota dealer is in the next town, I went with the Lexus. The hybrid engines may technically have more torque, but that CVT transmission was really weird to drive with. There were lags and over revs, and all sort of odd things going on. Did not think I would ever get used to it.

 

Weight is definitely a negative thing as far as fuel economy is concerned. Thats why Toyota and every other car manufacturers are developing the Lithium ion battery. Which is suppose to be small, lighter, charge faster and hold a charge longer.

 

My comment wasn't regarding sound, it was regarding fuel economy and drivability. A Lexus should be extremely quiet and smooth. The new diesels will meet Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions levels, which means their particulate matter emission will be almost impossible to detect. There is nothing "green" about driving a SUV, imho.

 

I'm greener than anyone, and when shopping we were dead set on the 400h. The dealer would not budge on the price, and it worked out to be $200+ a month more in the lease payment. We relented and went with the 350 (which I love).

I think I did the math back then and it worked out that it would take 7 years for the hybrid option to pay for itself.

One con I didnt see mentioned, and one that often gets overlooked is that these battries contain a lot of heavy metals. I dont know how good the infrastrucutre to recycle them is right now. Or if theyre recycled at all. My understanding is that theyre recycled to a small degree, but most of the bad stuff ends up in a dump. Thats certainly not green...

 

I work in the Telecom industry (manufacture and sales of powering equipment) and we see a lot of batteries come and go, batteries of all types, including Li now. These are very similar to what you will find in the hybrid systems, and believe me, those batteries get recycled, there is a lot of value in the carcass, and the salvaged metals bring very good money. You'll not find these being thrown in the dump, way to valuable a commodity now.

 

What happens to the acids inside? (Im curious)