AM1

iTrader: (6)

sounds about right....my service advisor has also said that there are many issues that may NOT have TSB out for them, but they are present. the techs have said it also, in fact they told me not to flash my tranny since it will probably make it worse. i think what joeb427 is trying to get at, correct me if im wrong is that while lexus quality is probably still pretty high in comparsion to other manufacturers, they are slipping. their quality is not like it was say in the 90's. the slipping quality should be of concern, since that might be the deciding factor in purchasing/leasing a lexus, i know for me it was. putting your head in the sand or looking the other way is not going to change what has happened with toyota/lexus quality/relability. like i have said before for most people they may never have any problems at all or have very little. but there will be people and that is probably in greater number that will have bigger or more persistent issues. like joeb427 my rx330 is leased and at this point im sick of taking it the dealer for warranty work, what sickens me even more is that the dealers know what the issues are and they are willing (begrudgingly) to admit it and they say it stems from corporate not doing anything about it and riding on their reputation for quality. which has been confirmed by numerous articles.

The G Man

A lot of these new Toyota / Lexus have small problems that drives some people crazy but its not serious enough to report it. Like some one mentioned earlier. there are people like my wife who thinks that cars are no more than just a few thousand mechanical parts thrown together and it is suppose to rattle and squeak. Then there are people like me who think that when you pay over $50K for a car, it should have no rattle to say the least.
I been driving Toyota / Lexus for over 15 years. what **** me off is that the older Toyota / Lexus was built solid, no rattles and squeak when new. So I know Toyota knows how to built a solid car, they have choose not to to save a few bucks.
I honestly dont think my next car will be another Lexus.

Lexmex

I actually got my RX300 largely due to Mexico (and it had to be an AWD vehicle) and Toyota had to at least be opening its doors or in the process of opening its doors. However, the other part of the equation is that it had to be a vehicle that I was going to keep for a long time, and at the time Lexus had the best reliability ratings going. My parents and I (and even my girlfriend) tend to keep vehicles for a long time.

jfelbab

I have owned 12 new Toyota and Lexus vehicles over the years. My first was a new 1984 Camry. Quite frankly, for me, each one has been better than the last. But, as I maintain, our opinions on quality are meaningless and an unscientific gauge of a vehicle's quality metrics.

I don't know how you determined that "a lot" of new Toyota / Lexus vehicles have small problems that go unreported. Care to elaborate on your factual basis for that claim. Also, what is "a lot" in your mind, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000? Or is this just your opinion based on your experience?

Opinions are great and certainly if you are not happy with your vehicle choice you should get rid of it and get something you like better. BTW, I want to know what manufacturer makes their vehicles so well that none of them ever squeaks, rattles or have the occasional niggling problem for it's owner.

I'm trying to get opinions and emotions out of the way of actual analysis of the quality metrics data.

I'll repost this in case you missed it earlier. My point is that TSB/Recall data is a far better indicator of overall vehicle quality than a few unhappy forum member's opinions. You can go to any automotive forum and find a few posters who are unhappy with their vehicles. This is not a scientific analysis of that vehicle's quality, only their opinions based on their experiences. Three or four unhappy forum members is not a statistically valid sample. The TSB/Recall info, OTOH, covers the entire gamut of owners and is much more revealing.

Recall data for all Toyota vehicles
14 in 2005 covering 2.28m vehicles
12 in 2006 covering 814k vehicles
6 in 2007 covering 640k vehicles

TSB / Safety Recall data for the Lexus RX330/350

2004 = 58 / 3
2005 = 25 / 1
2006 = 13 / 0
2007 = 7 / 0
2008 = 6 / 0

T O T A L 2004 - 2008 = 109 / 4


How does that compare to some other manufacturers?

TSB / Safety Recall data for the Acura MDX

2004 = 84 / 1
2005 = 34 / 2
2006 = 7 / 2
2007 = 3 / 1
2008 = 2 / 1

T O T A L 2004 - 2008 = 130 / 7


TSB / Safety Recall data for the Cadillac Escalade (LOL)

2004 = 280 / 4
2005 = 151 / 4
2006 = 65 / 2
2007 = 126 / 1
2008 = 58 / 1

T O T A L 2004 - 2008 = 680 / 12

Now these results are not necessarily representative of all Toyota / Acura / GM vehicles but solely a narrow snapshot of three specific vehicles. You can look up other manufacturers and models here: www.edmunds.com

I get it, that in your eyes and a couple others here, that you think the quality is declining but where is your statistical evidence? All manufacturers have occasional stumbles. Looking at this data doesn't seem to indicate that quality is declining at least for the vehicles analyzed. Quite the opposite is apparent.

This TSB/ SafetyRecall data is the closest thing I can find that gives an unbiased view of a products quality and trend line.

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

Statistical evidence?
Don't need to post any.
I have the president of Toyota admitting quality is down.

"The president of Toyota Motor acknowledged Thursday its rapid global growth was partly behind an increase in quality problems in recent years."
"Watanabe said that at least some of the problems, including time pressures and shortage of experts, stemmed from the company's huge growth in recent years."

So should we believe you or the president of Toyota?

The G Man

jfelbab, you know Lexus make other models beside the RX right The RX have been for the most part pretty good quality when compare to othe new Lexus models. Just the GS alone have 25 TSB for 07 and those numbers are inline with the rest of the Lexus sedan lineup, except for the LS. The rattle problem is so common in the newer Lexus sedans that a lot of the Lexus dealers have a specialist in dealing with the rattles.


BTW jfelbab, are you still working for Toyota

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

Or a major stock holder?

jfelbab

To be sure I had not looked at the GS TSB / Recall data.

He it is.

2004 GS300 = 1 / 0
2004 GS430 = 6 / 0

2005 GS300 = 1 / 0
2005 GS430 = 1 / 0

2006 GS300 = 12 / 3
2006 GS430 = 12 / 3

2007 GS350 = 1 / 0
2007 GS430 = 2 / 0

2008 GS350 = 2 / 0
2008 GS430 = 2 / 0

The numbers I posted come from the NHTSA and also were verified at Edmunds.

I don't work for Toyota, never have, nor does anyone I know.

ps: I also have no position in Toyota.

The G Man

jfelbab, your TSB source are wrong. I counted 63 TSB for the 06 Lexus GS alone:

http://www.alldata.com/TSB/31/06312321.html

jfelbab

Guess I'll have to disagree with you on that. The TSB's I referenced are those posted by the National Highway Traffic Safety Agency (NHTSA), part of the Department of Transportation (DOT) who is charged with investigating these issues. Of course, the list doesn't include TSB's that are informational like telling a technician about "Body - Power Window Initialization Procedure", etc. The numbers I posted contain only TSB's relating to actual defects. This is a discussion of quality, after all, not how many informational notes the manufacturer sends to it's technicians. The numbers are very valid for the purposes posted, clearly more relevant than using AllData totals.

The TSB's show no trend of degradation in quality over the past couple years. The numbers from the NHTSA are uniformly reported for all makes and models. They can be and were verified from a second respected source to insure accuracy.

Did you actually read that AllData link you posted? All but 12-15 of those 63 items listed are clearly not defect or quality related. They are, by-and-large, mostly informational notes to the dealerships service technicians. Why would you even consider counting items like "Sliding Roof Initialization Procedure", "Engine Lubrication - ILSAC GF-4 Oil Recommendation", "Windshield Wiper Blade Cleaning" or "Paint Codes" in a discussion about quality metrics?

Try to be logical about this. You can't ding a manufacturer's quality for sending notes like "A/C - Cabin Filter Replacement Procedure". LOL

AM1

iTrader: (6)

touche. i have a friend who works at toyota corporate here in torrance. she said that since they are having low sales growth and more and more recalls, problems etc, they are cutting back on spending. their christmas party ( im assuming its a big one) hs been cut back and many other stuff they used to have (parties, office stuff) has been canceled. to save $$

probably why consumer reports no longer recommends the GS anymore.

ouch.......

jfelbab

You must be reading a different Consumer Reports than I am.

November 07 Issue, Page 62, compares the Luxury sedans. They clearly liked the GS 450h and recommended it. Notice the big red checkmark by the the word Recommended.

April 08 Issue, Page 61, The 08 Lexus GS is recommended in the 350, 460, and 450h trim lines. Again notice the same red checkmark by the word Recommended.

Also on their recommended list is the ES, GX, IS, LS, RX and SC.

Geez AM1, do you hate Lexus so much that you can't at least be accurate in your bashing?

AM1

iTrader: (6)

out of everything that everyone else has said this is what you retort with? hmm ok. do we need to repost the articles about JD power saying that toyota/lexus quality is slipping? or maybe the articles with toyota being investigated by the japanese government? or how about the ones stating that they are sacrificing quality in their goal for more sales? or how about the one stating even the upper toyota brass says that say they sacrificed quality and quality control in the past few years? or how about the articles about how they are having more and more TSB's? oh thats right we already have, or have you not been reading them? thats ok ill post some more for your edification.

The G Man

Every car company goes thru cycles as far as quality is concerned. Lexus is at a low right now. I think MB and some of the American brands are actually climbing. The important thing for Lexus is to acknowledge the lower quality which they already did and try to turn things around. I use consumer report and JD power as a reference, I do not live by it, nor do I buy cars just because consumer report recommands it. They are reference and thats all they are. Believe it or not, if you filter out the trolls, forums like this is a very useful place to gather vehicle information.

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

This thread is no longer about the RX and is becoming personal.

If you'd like to continue a general quality discussion, there are plenty of threads in our Car Chat forum on this topic where you can share your opinions. This one is closed.