RX Hybrid
01-07-03, 01:14 AM
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Anyone?
Can someone set up a poll as to which RX330 they would prefer.
Considering that after the Fed. Tax rebate, both models cost the same and performance is similar as well.
I drive a lot, so the hybrid will save me at least $1,000 in gas per year. Not to mention how cool it would be to have something futuristic.
Can someone set up a poll as to which RX330 they would prefer.
Considering that after the Fed. Tax rebate, both models cost the same and performance is similar as well.
I drive a lot, so the hybrid will save me at least $1,000 in gas per year. Not to mention how cool it would be to have something futuristic.
01-07-03, 02:12 AM
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The hybrid model is getting to be a little more harder choice. It won't be released for at least a year. I'm thinking they'll produce it in the Cambridge, Ontario plant to reduce costs and that plant isn't even geared up for RX production until Sept 2003. And I've heard the price premium will be around $2,500 to $5,000 for the hybrid engine depending upon what kind of technology they choose. Not surprisingly, the higher mpg hybrid engines cost more. (Maybe $2,500 price premium gets you 30mpg and $5,000 gets you 40mpg?) The more that price premium is, the harder it is to justify it dollarwise in gas savings. Let's do the math.
Gaswise, let's say you drive the RX for 50,000 miles during the time you own it. Using an average of 20mpg for the regular RX, you'll need 2,500 gallons of gas to drive that. With a hybrid RX average of say 30mpg, you'll need 1,666.7 gallons of gas. If we're a little optimistic and use a 40mpg average, that'll be 1,250 gallons of gas. The difference of 833.3 or 1,250 gallons is your gas savings. Taking an average gas price of $2.00/gallon to make calculations simpler, gas savings will be between $1,666 and $2,500 over 50,000 miles. Obviously, the higher the gas price, the more the savings.
Federal tax incentives for a hybrid vehicle are a little misleading. You don't get $2,000 back from the government outright. Yes it's a $2,000 deduction but what it really means is $2,000 off your adjusted income -- income after deductions etc. In other words if your usual taxable income is $72,000, figuring in the hybrid vehicle deduction it's $2,000 less or $70,000.
At a 30% tax rate, the tax on your $72,000 is $21,600. In comparison, the tax on your $70,000 is $21,000. Your tax savings is only $600! If you're in the 35% tax bracket, that tax savings is only $700 (at that tax bracket, who cares about $700 anyway). Another annoying thing is that you can't drive a hybrid vehicle in a carpool lane by yourself in California and probably other states too. You'll have to justify getting a hybrid RX on more subjective reasons like gee-whiz factor, feel-good green factor etc.
If you don't like to be an early adopter of new technologies, that could sour the deal. Sure the technology has been tested in the Prius and the in Estima minivan in Japan, but...
Has it been used in an RX? Has it been built at the Cambridge, Ontario plant? Has your Lexus dealer serviced a hybrid?
While I expect Toyota to minimize these growing pains, I don't want to be part of the experiment the first year. I hope they release the hybrid RX. The sooner the better. I just don't want to be an early adopter.
Gaswise, let's say you drive the RX for 50,000 miles during the time you own it. Using an average of 20mpg for the regular RX, you'll need 2,500 gallons of gas to drive that. With a hybrid RX average of say 30mpg, you'll need 1,666.7 gallons of gas. If we're a little optimistic and use a 40mpg average, that'll be 1,250 gallons of gas. The difference of 833.3 or 1,250 gallons is your gas savings. Taking an average gas price of $2.00/gallon to make calculations simpler, gas savings will be between $1,666 and $2,500 over 50,000 miles. Obviously, the higher the gas price, the more the savings.
Federal tax incentives for a hybrid vehicle are a little misleading. You don't get $2,000 back from the government outright. Yes it's a $2,000 deduction but what it really means is $2,000 off your adjusted income -- income after deductions etc. In other words if your usual taxable income is $72,000, figuring in the hybrid vehicle deduction it's $2,000 less or $70,000.
At a 30% tax rate, the tax on your $72,000 is $21,600. In comparison, the tax on your $70,000 is $21,000. Your tax savings is only $600! If you're in the 35% tax bracket, that tax savings is only $700 (at that tax bracket, who cares about $700 anyway). Another annoying thing is that you can't drive a hybrid vehicle in a carpool lane by yourself in California and probably other states too. You'll have to justify getting a hybrid RX on more subjective reasons like gee-whiz factor, feel-good green factor etc.
If you don't like to be an early adopter of new technologies, that could sour the deal. Sure the technology has been tested in the Prius and the in Estima minivan in Japan, but...
Has it been used in an RX? Has it been built at the Cambridge, Ontario plant? Has your Lexus dealer serviced a hybrid?
While I expect Toyota to minimize these growing pains, I don't want to be part of the experiment the first year. I hope they release the hybrid RX. The sooner the better. I just don't want to be an early adopter.
01-07-03, 05:49 AM
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xsfo, I do somewhat agree......
......with what you have to say regarding the hybrid RX. However I'd like to analyze your example a bit further. Your example shows a usage of 50K miles (during a 5 year ownership, I presume??).......that's 10K miles/year!! .....I think there are VERY FEW people who drive that little (and most of them live out in the Sticks, and certainly not in Los Angeles! 
) .......FYI, I'm a high-mileage driver and may put anywhere between 25 and 30K miles a year. Even conservatively taking 25K miles a year that would mean 125K miles in 4 years. That's one of the reasons I chose the MDX over the GX 470 I was seriously considering (5mpg better) .......Anyways getting back to the caculations:
at 5 years/125,000 miles usage, I would use:
At 20mpg -
6,250 gallons resulting in a cost of $12,500 (assuming $2/gallon)
At 30mpg -
4167 gallons resulting in a cost of $8,334 (assuming $2/gallon)
Thats a savings of $4,166 over a 5 year period. If gas prices were to shoot up, then savings would be significantly more!! Basically, you've recovered everything and some more. If you decided to keep the car beyond this, it's pure savings after that.
However, the downside to this, that is an "unkown" is the additional cost of driving a hybrid for 125,000 miles (such as battery replacement costs etc. which could be quite substantial). When you factor this in, it may make driving the hybrid less attractive, especially if you want to keep the vehicle long-term.
I totally agree on not wanting to be an "early adopter" of this technology!! Even if I were to buy a hybrid RX, it would certainly not be before the vehicle has been in production AT LEAST FOR TWO FULL YEARS!!
) .......FYI, I'm a high-mileage driver and may put anywhere between 25 and 30K miles a year. Even conservatively taking 25K miles a year that would mean 125K miles in 4 years. That's one of the reasons I chose the MDX over the GX 470 I was seriously considering (5mpg better) .......Anyways getting back to the caculations: at 5 years/125,000 miles usage, I would use:
At 20mpg -
6,250 gallons resulting in a cost of $12,500 (assuming $2/gallon)
At 30mpg -
4167 gallons resulting in a cost of $8,334 (assuming $2/gallon)
Thats a savings of $4,166 over a 5 year period. If gas prices were to shoot up, then savings would be significantly more!! Basically, you've recovered everything and some more. If you decided to keep the car beyond this, it's pure savings after that.
However, the downside to this, that is an "unkown" is the additional cost of driving a hybrid for 125,000 miles (such as battery replacement costs etc. which could be quite substantial). When you factor this in, it may make driving the hybrid less attractive, especially if you want to keep the vehicle long-term.
I totally agree on not wanting to be an "early adopter" of this technology!! Even if I were to buy a hybrid RX, it would certainly not be before the vehicle has been in production AT LEAST FOR TWO FULL YEARS!!
Last edited by vicpai; 01-07-03 at 05:51 AM.
01-07-03, 08:37 AM
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Vic: First of all, I think we pretty much agree overall but we're gonna butt heads about the details. I do take a offense at your pooh-poohing of my 50,000 miles a year figure. How would you like it if I panned the Acura Navigation system? 
Do a quick search and you'll find that average car mileage is between 12,000 and 15,000 miles a year (usually pages related to used car buying). The average length of car ownership is about 4 years. These averages are for the whole US and not just Southern California (dude). The 50,000 mile figure might be a little light but it is absolutely reasonable. You yourself admit you are a high mileage driver so of course your situation will be different. Certainly yours is not the typical situation. (What do you do again? And how do you keep from going batty/postal/road rage from all that driving?)
Anyway I wanted to point out to the fact that for average driver, the money they save on gas might not cover the extra cost of a hybrid engine. They'd have to justify the additional cost some other way.
I'm glad you mentioned the possible "unknown costs" of a hybrid RX. It's another factor which makes me hesitant to get the first hybrid RX. Like the Toyota Prius, I expect Toyota will offer a 8 year/100,000 mile warranty on the RX hybrid system. Still it won't cover the hassle-factor, time lost etc. And of course your mileage would go beyond the warranty limits. If you look into the Prius track record, there hasn't been any major flaw with them (like exploding tires, sorry Ford) so that's encouraging.
Having said all this, I want to make it clear that I think the hybrid RX is a great idea and I'd really like to get one. Realistically though I'd wait a couple years before getting a hybrid RX. Although if the first year was OK (no major powerplant flaws) and the caveats of a hybrid were reasonable, I might get one.
Do a quick search and you'll find that average car mileage is between 12,000 and 15,000 miles a year (usually pages related to used car buying). The average length of car ownership is about 4 years. These averages are for the whole US and not just Southern California (dude). The 50,000 mile figure might be a little light but it is absolutely reasonable. You yourself admit you are a high mileage driver so of course your situation will be different. Certainly yours is not the typical situation. (What do you do again? And how do you keep from going batty/postal/road rage from all that driving?)
Anyway I wanted to point out to the fact that for average driver, the money they save on gas might not cover the extra cost of a hybrid engine. They'd have to justify the additional cost some other way.
I'm glad you mentioned the possible "unknown costs" of a hybrid RX. It's another factor which makes me hesitant to get the first hybrid RX. Like the Toyota Prius, I expect Toyota will offer a 8 year/100,000 mile warranty on the RX hybrid system. Still it won't cover the hassle-factor, time lost etc. And of course your mileage would go beyond the warranty limits. If you look into the Prius track record, there hasn't been any major flaw with them (like exploding tires, sorry Ford) so that's encouraging.
Having said all this, I want to make it clear that I think the hybrid RX is a great idea and I'd really like to get one. Realistically though I'd wait a couple years before getting a hybrid RX. Although if the first year was OK (no major powerplant flaws) and the caveats of a hybrid were reasonable, I might get one.
01-07-03, 07:33 PM
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Don't mean to hate on you xsfo but we don't know which factory the hybrid will be built in...toyota says it will sell 70,000 regular RX's a year and the Canada plant can only produce 60,000 a year. Hopefully sales will stay high enough to keep toyota importing them....maybe some of these 10,000 units will be hybrids?? The whole money issue seems that it will cost you bit more but to me gas savings + tax incentives = almost break even and like you said, you get the gee-whiz/fell-good green factors....to go along with the gee whiz (according to motortrend) the hybrid will have a continuously variable transmission - that would be the smoothest shifting lexus to date. I'm all for it. As far as having trouble with it and the inconvience it would cause isn't an issue for me because the dealer is on my way to work (actually about 3/4 of a mile from my house!) anyway thats my $.02
Last edited by 330wannabe; 01-09-03 at 11:23 PM.
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01-07-03, 08:21 PM
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330wannabe: it doesn't really matter which plant the hybrid RX is going to be built. Whether it's Kyushu or Cambridge, it'll be a completely new production. So what's your point?
01-07-03, 08:52 PM
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Thanks to XSFO for doing all of the calculations. From the 2003 NAIAS introduction today, Mr. Fuji Cho said that the SU-HV is due to arrive within two years. At first, I seriously considered waiting for the hybrid to arrive, but having read your informative and insightful post, I'm probably going to forego that car and opt for the traditional fuel-burning technology.
Vicpai also brings up a good point with the "unknowns" and hidden costs of a hybrid technology. In any case, I'll definitely be checking out the RX when it arrives in April.
On a side note, I have to say that despite the lagging economy and rising gas prices, these are great times for auto enthusiasts. I'm really excited about all of the new cars that are being unveiled in Detroit and LA. And I'm not talking about just Lexus and Toyota, but every manufacturer out there.
Vicpai also brings up a good point with the "unknowns" and hidden costs of a hybrid technology. In any case, I'll definitely be checking out the RX when it arrives in April.
On a side note, I have to say that despite the lagging economy and rising gas prices, these are great times for auto enthusiasts. I'm really excited about all of the new cars that are being unveiled in Detroit and LA. And I'm not talking about just Lexus and Toyota, but every manufacturer out there.
01-07-03, 08:53 PM
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Whoa... Toyota just announced their hybrid RX 330 technology.
According to the release, it will arrive in dealer showrooms in about TWO YEARS
_____________________________________
Toyota Announces Revolutionary New Hybrid Technology At North American International Auto Show
01/07/2003 Detroit, MI
Toyota, the first company to sell a mass-produced hybrid electric/gasoline car, today unveiled plans to offer a revolutionary new hybrid powertrain in future vehicles. This hybrid system will be offered in the Lexus RX 330 and will arrive in dealer showrooms in about two years. The announcement was made at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit and a sport utility hybrid vehicle (SU-HV) show car was displayed.
This innovative electric/gasoline hybrid technology, called Hybrid Synergy Drive, offers benefits far beyond today's hybrid vehicles. While the strengths of current hybrid systems include low emissions and high fuel economy, this new hybrid technology adds the benefit of outstanding performance.
"The RX with Hybrid Synergy Drive has a V6 engine with the power and torque of a V8 and delivers the fuel mileage of a compact car while producing a fraction of the emissions of standard SUVs," said Toyota Motor Corporation President Fujio Cho.
The Hybrid Synergy Drive operates with front and rear electric motors and a front internal combustion engine. The system in the RX operates at nearly double the voltage of the current Prius and generates more power with high efficiency, dramatically cutting fuel consumption and emissions.
In addition, the front and rear electric drive provides the benefits of all-wheel drive in a lighter and more compact package. And, the system is highly modular so it is extremely flexible. Different size motors and engines can be combined to favor either fuel economy or power…or both. This means the Hybrid Synergy Drive can be easily adapted to a broad range of vehicles.
"These major advances in our hybrid system and in the number of vehicles carrying it will help us achieve our worldwide goal to put 300,000 hybrid vehicles on the road annually by the middle of this decade," said Cho. "More importantly, it will spread advanced, low-emission technology faster and further around the world."
According to the release, it will arrive in dealer showrooms in about TWO YEARS
_____________________________________
Toyota Announces Revolutionary New Hybrid Technology At North American International Auto Show
01/07/2003 Detroit, MI
Toyota, the first company to sell a mass-produced hybrid electric/gasoline car, today unveiled plans to offer a revolutionary new hybrid powertrain in future vehicles. This hybrid system will be offered in the Lexus RX 330 and will arrive in dealer showrooms in about two years. The announcement was made at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit and a sport utility hybrid vehicle (SU-HV) show car was displayed.
This innovative electric/gasoline hybrid technology, called Hybrid Synergy Drive, offers benefits far beyond today's hybrid vehicles. While the strengths of current hybrid systems include low emissions and high fuel economy, this new hybrid technology adds the benefit of outstanding performance.
"The RX with Hybrid Synergy Drive has a V6 engine with the power and torque of a V8 and delivers the fuel mileage of a compact car while producing a fraction of the emissions of standard SUVs," said Toyota Motor Corporation President Fujio Cho.
The Hybrid Synergy Drive operates with front and rear electric motors and a front internal combustion engine. The system in the RX operates at nearly double the voltage of the current Prius and generates more power with high efficiency, dramatically cutting fuel consumption and emissions.
In addition, the front and rear electric drive provides the benefits of all-wheel drive in a lighter and more compact package. And, the system is highly modular so it is extremely flexible. Different size motors and engines can be combined to favor either fuel economy or power…or both. This means the Hybrid Synergy Drive can be easily adapted to a broad range of vehicles.
"These major advances in our hybrid system and in the number of vehicles carrying it will help us achieve our worldwide goal to put 300,000 hybrid vehicles on the road annually by the middle of this decade," said Cho. "More importantly, it will spread advanced, low-emission technology faster and further around the world."
01-08-03, 12:21 AM
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XSFO...slow down there turbo! I just wondered where you got your info about where it (hybrid)would be produced....I read this board and people are worried about fit and finish problems with the Cambridge plant, and the environmental laws regarding the paint job. Not sure if it really matters...but if it does who wouldn't prefer theirs to be built in Kyushu?
01-08-03, 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by parula
Don't forget to factor in the replacement cost of the batteries into those cash flow analyses!
What is the est. battery life?
Don't forget to factor in the replacement cost of the batteries into those cash flow analyses!
What is the est. battery life?
So assuming there will be a 8 year/100,000 mile warranty on the hybrid system, I figure most battery packs will last that long. But really, battery lifespan is one of those unknowns since the RX system will be completely new. More advanced than even the Prius hybrid system. Toyota will be betting that it will be good enough so it doesn't hurt them financially with the warranties.
01-08-03, 11:08 PM
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xsfo...from the pictures you posted, specifically the one showing the battery under the seat, does it seem that the cushion is less padded than the current seat? Just wondering if it will be less comfortable...plus since you find out more info than anybody else have you heard what options will or won't be available with the hybrid vs. the non hybrid?
Last edited by 330wannabe; 01-08-03 at 11:17 PM.