Low Oil - Engine shut-off - now won't start/run
12-26-20, 04:28 PM
#1
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Low Oil - Engine shut-off - now won't start/run
Hi Group,
I searched briefly but can't find how to really search the right topic for this one.
I have an RX350 FWD with 193k. at 190k, I changed the oil and saw (what I believed to be) wetness on the front/pully-face of the engine, suspecting an oil leak. I took it into a shop at 191k for a few squeak/rattle checks and asked them to check for the leak. They said all they could see was my chronic Power Steering leak. Brought it home but still suspicious, so I'd been checking the oil level regularly.
I checked the oil a few days before the "The ROAD TRIP" as I'm about to describe, level in middle of dots, looked good. Morning of "The ROAD TRIP", wife ran car to on quick errand, brought home, and I smelled oil. didn't check it though... We got in the car for an hour (each way) trip, when making 'the turn', we heard some groaning, I suspected the Power Steering (or Tranny) since I'd been hearing some when turning in the last month and topped off PS fluid.
20mins in, the Check Engine, Trac, and ASC lights light up---I'd seen this before when I had a bad coil, so I wasn't mortally concerned. 15mins later and some engine groaning, it shut off and left us stranded. Checked oil...wouldn't even read on stick.
Added oil, I think it was about 3qts low. tried to start, fired once briefly, then shutoff and won't fire again, turns over fine, sounds fine, but can't get to fire.
Towed to independent shop, they suspected cam timing (per codes) and said they didn't have tooling to check or fix.
Towed to Lexus, they tell me they suspect the engine is toast and don't think we should spend their labor looking into it.
Thoughts on whether the engine is toast? or, what else could keep it from firing after suspected 'low oil' condition?
I searched briefly but can't find how to really search the right topic for this one.
I have an RX350 FWD with 193k. at 190k, I changed the oil and saw (what I believed to be) wetness on the front/pully-face of the engine, suspecting an oil leak. I took it into a shop at 191k for a few squeak/rattle checks and asked them to check for the leak. They said all they could see was my chronic Power Steering leak. Brought it home but still suspicious, so I'd been checking the oil level regularly.
I checked the oil a few days before the "The ROAD TRIP" as I'm about to describe, level in middle of dots, looked good. Morning of "The ROAD TRIP", wife ran car to on quick errand, brought home, and I smelled oil. didn't check it though... We got in the car for an hour (each way) trip, when making 'the turn', we heard some groaning, I suspected the Power Steering (or Tranny) since I'd been hearing some when turning in the last month and topped off PS fluid.
20mins in, the Check Engine, Trac, and ASC lights light up---I'd seen this before when I had a bad coil, so I wasn't mortally concerned. 15mins later and some engine groaning, it shut off and left us stranded. Checked oil...wouldn't even read on stick.
Added oil, I think it was about 3qts low. tried to start, fired once briefly, then shutoff and won't fire again, turns over fine, sounds fine, but can't get to fire.
Towed to independent shop, they suspected cam timing (per codes) and said they didn't have tooling to check or fix.
Towed to Lexus, they tell me they suspect the engine is toast and don't think we should spend their labor looking into it.
Thoughts on whether the engine is toast? or, what else could keep it from firing after suspected 'low oil' condition?
12-26-20, 05:41 PM
#2
Really? All these red flags and you figured you get to it later? For once i think you should listen to someone other than yourself. The Lexus techs seam like a good place to start. Sorry to hear about your situation but...
12-26-20, 06:20 PM
#3
Lexus Test Driver
"20mins in, the Check Engine, Trac, and ASC lights light up--- "
Did you pull over and scan for codes?
"Towed to independent shop, they suspected cam timing (per codes) and said they didn't have tooling to check or fix."
More likely not cam timing but rather VVT codes maybe due to Low Oil- if 3MZFE engine maybe so with slipped/broken T-Belt but not yours.
"Towed to Lexus, they tell me they suspect the engine is toast and don't think we should spend their labor looking into it."
What led to this diagnostic?
Did you pull over and scan for codes?
"Towed to independent shop, they suspected cam timing (per codes) and said they didn't have tooling to check or fix."
More likely not cam timing but rather VVT codes maybe due to Low Oil- if 3MZFE engine maybe so with slipped/broken T-Belt but not yours.
"Towed to Lexus, they tell me they suspect the engine is toast and don't think we should spend their labor looking into it."
What led to this diagnostic?
12-26-20, 07:13 PM
#4
Pole Position
Since you have a rx350, A good possibility that the motor is toast, thanx to the rubber oil cooler hose failed.....ID get why you drive your car w/ these problems for......Basically no oil to the vvti is going to change the timing, let alone w/ no oil to the rod/mains.....
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Margate330 (12-26-20)
12-26-20, 07:58 PM
#5
Lexus Test Driver
That's what I'm thinking too.
The mechanic should be able to clear any cam or VVT codes after topping off oil and they should stay cleared hopefully- I don't believe you have a cam issue other than low oil to VVT's unless there is a huge coincedence.
Also on the RX330 the cam sensors and VVT selenoids plugs can be unplugged and car will still start from tests I've done- VVT's aren't phasing at idle according to what I seen on my oscilloscope but can't confirm for RX350- hopefully somebody knows.
The mechanic should be able to clear any cam or VVT codes after topping off oil and they should stay cleared hopefully- I don't believe you have a cam issue other than low oil to VVT's unless there is a huge coincedence.
Also on the RX330 the cam sensors and VVT selenoids plugs can be unplugged and car will still start from tests I've done- VVT's aren't phasing at idle according to what I seen on my oscilloscope but can't confirm for RX350- hopefully somebody knows.
12-27-20, 02:43 AM
#6
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
@Margate330 Independent shops says the following Codes pulled: "The vehicle has many faults for camshaft timing for both banks (ie: Bank 1 & Bank 2) stored and present faults (ie: P0011, P0021, P0345, P0014, P0024).
@Felix I'll read up on posts about the oil cooler hose.
Driveway has both a new oil spot (from that day) and pink from an accelerated PS leak, so both need to obviously be addressed if the car is restored to service.
Agree with you all on not really thinking through 'pulling over'---but being an hour from home, a 3yr old in the car, getting back for carpool for the other kids, COVID and the thought of jumping in a tow truck with the family.....---- When is it ever as simple as adding OIL? I Figured the Power Steering must be going, hence the groan when we made the turn on the trip. I smelled. Definitely regret not checking the oil again but I excused it away. But, I also think it was the family's desire for 3-rows that may have battling my own intuition! but, definitely not a way I wanted to lose a car, ever. Had it been me, alone, I would have stopped.
@Felix I'll read up on posts about the oil cooler hose.
Driveway has both a new oil spot (from that day) and pink from an accelerated PS leak, so both need to obviously be addressed if the car is restored to service.
Agree with you all on not really thinking through 'pulling over'---but being an hour from home, a 3yr old in the car, getting back for carpool for the other kids, COVID and the thought of jumping in a tow truck with the family.....---- When is it ever as simple as adding OIL? I Figured the Power Steering must be going, hence the groan when we made the turn on the trip. I smelled. Definitely regret not checking the oil again but I excused it away. But, I also think it was the family's desire for 3-rows that may have battling my own intuition! but, definitely not a way I wanted to lose a car, ever. Had it been me, alone, I would have stopped.
12-27-20, 03:45 AM
#7
The RX350, uses oil pressure for the timing chain tensioner, as well as the camshaft timing. If because of low oil, there was enough wear on metal parts (or hole in an oil line) to reduce oil pressure enough that the timing chain tensioner is not keeping the chain tight, then timing may be off.
There is a timing chain tensioner inspection plate below bank 1.
I would try to find the leak, either the VVTi bank 1 hose, or (if equipped) the oil cooler lines, fix that then:
1) Pull the ignition and fuel pump relays
2) Crank engine until oil pressure light goes out (this can take up to 2 mins if all is well)
3) Replace relays and try to start.
The upper and lower oil pans are not hard to remove with engine in car, and they likely are due to be resealed anyway. You can get a good look at the bottom end, check for metal in the pan etc, see the cylinder walls.
If that fails, next step is a compression test, likely needs new plugs anyways if it can be revived.
BTW, it is not hard to pull the crank pully on this engine, and there is a crank seal behind it.
There is a timing chain tensioner inspection plate below bank 1.
I would try to find the leak, either the VVTi bank 1 hose, or (if equipped) the oil cooler lines, fix that then:
1) Pull the ignition and fuel pump relays
2) Crank engine until oil pressure light goes out (this can take up to 2 mins if all is well)
3) Replace relays and try to start.
The upper and lower oil pans are not hard to remove with engine in car, and they likely are due to be resealed anyway. You can get a good look at the bottom end, check for metal in the pan etc, see the cylinder walls.
If that fails, next step is a compression test, likely needs new plugs anyways if it can be revived.
BTW, it is not hard to pull the crank pully on this engine, and there is a crank seal behind it.
Last edited by Mesquite77; 12-27-20 at 03:51 AM.
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Margate330 (12-27-20)
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12-27-20, 06:44 AM
#8
Lexus Test Driver
The RX350, uses oil pressure for the timing chain tensioner, as well as the camshaft timing. If because of low oil, there was enough wear on metal parts (or hole in an oil line) to reduce oil pressure enough that the timing chain tensioner is not keeping the chain tight, then timing may be off.
There is a timing chain tensioner inspection plate below bank 1.
I would try to find the leak, either the VVTi bank 1 hose, or (if equipped) the oil cooler lines, fix that then:
1) Pull the ignition and fuel pump relays
2) Crank engine until oil pressure light goes out (this can take up to 2 mins if all is well)
3) Replace relays and try to start.
The upper and lower oil pans are not hard to remove with engine in car, and they likely are due to be resealed anyway. You can get a good look at the bottom end, check for metal in the pan etc, see the cylinder walls.
If that fails, next step is a compression test, likely needs new plugs anyways if it can be revived.
BTW, it is not hard to pull the crank pully on this engine, and there is a crank seal behind it.
There is a timing chain tensioner inspection plate below bank 1.
I would try to find the leak, either the VVTi bank 1 hose, or (if equipped) the oil cooler lines, fix that then:
1) Pull the ignition and fuel pump relays
2) Crank engine until oil pressure light goes out (this can take up to 2 mins if all is well)
3) Replace relays and try to start.
The upper and lower oil pans are not hard to remove with engine in car, and they likely are due to be resealed anyway. You can get a good look at the bottom end, check for metal in the pan etc, see the cylinder walls.
If that fails, next step is a compression test, likely needs new plugs anyways if it can be revived.
BTW, it is not hard to pull the crank pully on this engine, and there is a crank seal behind it.
This might be a lucky break if you did jump timing somehow I didn't think of the tensioner- I saw a guy on youtube remove and install the timing chain by removing a chain link without pulling the engine but it didn't look like a fun job. Just hope you didn't smash a valve if you did jump time.
If someone told me my engine was toast I would want them to show their work- chapter and verse- and not take their word for it, maybe wishful thinking for you.
PS- if any of the cams are out of time the dealer also should be able to easily prove this by showing you a camshaft vs crankshaft correlation waveform by pinning the wires at the ECM and screenshot the output. You have 4 cam sensors if I remember right and with the crankshaft signal it will tell everything with an hour or 2 of labor if need to go in that deep.
For DIY the biggest steal is the Hantek 1008C on ebay- might do a review on this sometime- absolutely invaluable for deep diagnostics.
Last edited by Margate330; 12-27-20 at 08:54 AM.
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daddiojigg (12-27-20)
12-27-20, 02:20 PM
#9
Margate: would love to see a review on the hantek as well as all it's capabilities. Please find some time.
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Margate330 (12-27-20)
12-27-20, 02:30 PM
#10
Racer
I sure hope i dont ever have to encounter a issue(s) like this that could be this bad!. according to my vin; which was stealer checked not too long ago; mine had the recall done on it back in 2010 if i remember correctly so im keeping it in the back of my mind that yes this could happen to any older second gen rx at any point; but hopefully i dont have to go through something like this.
12-27-20, 05:57 PM
#11
Lexus Test Driver
I will make a waveform library of the all the sensor outputs for the 3MZFE for reference and hopefullly someone can do one for the RX350 2GR.
With known good waveforms a lot of "no start" and "poor running" conditions can quickly be seen such as a slipped timing belt, knock sensors, crankshaft sensor, VVT & Cam sensors, ignition, fuel injectors, etc etc and review some features.
12-27-20, 06:20 PM
#12
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
thank you all. I'll talk to the dealer tomorrow to see if I can get a camshaft/crankshaft timing output to verify if anything has skipped indeed. I'll push them a little more for resolution. I'm good around cars, very handy, but when it comes to the electronics and timing---I'm not too familiar. I could do most else listed above, I've replaced engines on other cars in the past---just didn't really want to do it on a daily driver like this since it does have some other outstanding issues that are imminent.
12-28-20, 10:18 AM
#13
Pole Position
thank you all. I'll talk to the dealer tomorrow to see if I can get a camshaft/crankshaft timing output to verify if anything has skipped indeed. I'll push them a little more for resolution. I'm good around cars, very handy, but when it comes to the electronics and timing---I'm not too familiar. I could do most else listed above, I've replaced engines on other cars in the past---just didn't really want to do it on a daily driver like this since it does have some other outstanding issues that are imminent.
01-07-21, 06:45 AM
#14
Lexus Test Driver
Hi Fosh,
Just wondering if you got good news and what they found.
Just wondering if you got good news and what they found.
01-14-21, 07:05 PM
#15
Pole Position
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