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One additional follow-up. If I want to try to clean/Permatex the leaking area, how do I get to it?
The tech at the dealership had it up on a lift, with the covers off, and just kind of waved a flashlight at it. I've seen several close-ups of the leaking area, and the CCN video, so I can find it once in the vicinity. There was a post earlier that said you get to it by removing the right front wheel.
Is it best accessed from below, on jacks, or from the wheel well? From below, I've changed the oil/filter and inspected the oft-leaking oil cooler hoses, so that's my starting point. If from the wheel well, do inner liners need to come off? Images in posts 70, 89, 118, and 159 seem to be coming from the rear, slightly offset to the passenger side, rather than at a 90 degree angle that I would expect to see directly from the side. 159 looks like it might be from just under the driveshaft, inboard of the front passenger wheel hub. Anyone happen to have a zoomed out version of these images to provide a starting reference?
Also mentioned is tightening up the bolts holding on the cover - anyone happen to have torque specs?
I accessed the timing cover from under the RX with the front end jacked up to perform an oil change. I just used the straw that came with the Permatex spray sealant can to aim and get into the area behind the VVT banjo bolt area. I also sprayed the sealant along the timing cover edge from top to bottom. I applied about 5 coats with a minute drying time between applying coats.
It is the not prettiest repair(or solution) but it seems to work to slow down a minor weeping leaking timing cover.
Note: The area is just above the passenger side front axle and just to the right of the water pump(or left if looking directly at the water pump).
Am I wrong to assume that the timing cover does not have standing oil behind it? Lubricated chain runs behind it and the oil is drained back in the block.
If I am right any additive in the oil is very unlikely to seal it. Topical (on/in-between the gasket) or external sealant would be more effective.
Please correct me if I am wrong. This is all hypothetical as I have not opened up the timing cover (not do I plant to do it).
Thanks for the replies, and for linking this to the past thread I somehow couldn't find, with details/photos.
I put the AT-205 in and drove for an hour. Then my wife took it on a 6 hour round-trip to pick up in-laws for the holidays. As that had passed the specified 5 hour treatment time, I changed the oil so the additive wasn't just floating around in the crankcase. After 4-5 outings, followed by sitting for an extended period, no obvious oil on the ground. I'll crawl under and look in detail later, but I'm thinking/hoping it's good enough for now. In reality, I suspect the drops I saw after the oil cooler hose was replaced might have been oil from that leak that had sprayed around in nooks and crannies and was still working it's way out. The cover leak most likely was, and still is, a very slow seep that really won't be a problem.
As the cover leak is just an applied sealant rather than an actual rubber gasket or seal, I'm a bit doubtful that the AT-205 plasticizers would actually have an effect. But the engine is full of actual seals and gaskets, so a bit of treatment for all of them probably didn't hurt.
After a few more cycles, and when I get a free time, I'll put it up on stands again and take a look. I suspect I'll see the same remnants of a very slow, seeping/spitting "leak" from the cover, and I'll just get in the habit of giving it a good degreaser/cleaning each time I change the oil. With the photos provided here, I'm hoping to better locate the cover leak and might try spraying/applying some type of external sealant - couldn't hurt. Maybe that magical FlexSeal. Or not.
How did the AT-205 work?
We have a 2011 X5 that has a leaky oil pan. Used AT-205 (i left it in for ~1000 miles, 1 month) and the leak has effectively stopped. Used to get two drops every day after the car was driven. No more drops now. But, to you point, the X5 has a gasket that degrades, not a sealant.
Am I wrong to assume that the timing cover does not have standing oil behind it? Lubricated chain runs behind it and the oil is drained back in the block.
If I am right any additive in the oil is very unlikely to seal it. Topical (on/in-between the gasket) or external sealant would be more effective.
Please correct me if I am wrong. This is all hypothetical as I have not opened up the timing cover (not do I plant to do it).
Salim
I am not an oil chemical specialist. However, to my understanding additives that swell up gaskets like ATP-205 absorbs into the rubber gasket when it makes contact like water that absorb into a paper towel. Therefore, the rubber gasket just needs to be washed or coated by oil that is treated to be effected by the swelling agent. The process usually take while to work.
ATP-205 seals old gaskets by softening the old rubber up and causing the rubber gasket to swell to seal minor leaks.
The oil just splashes against the timing cover and may collect in grooves and joints, but the oil mainly just drain back into the oil pan after being sprayed on the timing chain components.
I do not think that ATP-205 will work on the timing cover since the gap in the RTV seal is usually too wide for just a rubber swelling agent, but it could work if the gap is really small and the leak is just very minor weeping.
Just because I am a sceptic, what are the odds of getting enough molecules of the additive right at the leak or right above it to make its way where the leak is. I will opt for a topical solution if and when the cver springs a minor leak.
Just because I am a sceptic, what are the odds of getting enough molecules of the additive right at the leak or right above it to make its way where the leak is. I will opt for a topical solution if and when the cver springs a minor leak.
Salim
A topical solution? Interesting.
How are you going to apply the treatment to the entire RTV gasket when most of it in under the timing cover. So instead of splashing the inside gasket with oil treatment; you will just coat the outside and hope it will wick its way into the entire gasket to seal the leak? Similar methods, just different application styles. Outcome will probably be the same.
This is the plan which I will execute if and when the timing cover springs a leak ..
Take a wire brush [brass/copper] scrub the leaking area [go about 2" higher]. Spray on degreaser, dry, spray on sealant. Let it dry and live with consequences.
This is the plan which I will execute if and when the timing cover springs a leak ..
Take a wire brush [brass/copper] scrub the leaking area [go about 2" higher]. Spray on degreaser, dry, spray on sealant. Let it dry and live with consequences.
Salim
Great plan for a leak sealant application!!!
I was thinking that your post was referring to applying a seal conditioner(sweller) like ATP 205.
^^ Same plan here if I ever have to address this issue. I hope my wife's 2015 RX was fortunate enough for the sealant-squirting robots to be working properly on the assembly line that day. Time will tell.
I finally got around to working on this. Some photos below might be helpful to others. The AT-205 didn't seem to help, though I didn't expect it to. It's supposed to condition/swell rubber seals and gaskets. As this is just a bead of some type of sealant, leaving an extremely thin layer when tightened, I didn't expect there to be anything to absorb the material or swell. But at least all the other seals on a 14+ year old vehicle were treated.
As I wanted to get in and lay a bead of sealant from a tube, not just a spray can, I found it much easier to access from the from passenger wheel well, so everything below is with the car jacked up and supported, and the right front wheel off.
To help locate it, here's zooming in from outside the wheel well: (the blue item is my light)
I then used a couple applications of CRC heavy duty de-greaser, followed by a pass with brake cleaner, to prep everything. Again, zooming in
I then applied Permatex 27037 Optimum Black Gasket Maker. First, a thin pass that I tried to push into the seam with my (gloved) hand. Then, after wiping the surface, an actual bead all the way along. Around the banjo bolt is difficult access, so I just squirted a big blob and pushed it in. Hopefully it reached the seams.
I also tried tightening the bolts, but they were quite tight - I don't think I did anything.
This is supposed to dry 24 hours. I'll probably give it 48 and then apply Permatex 82099 Spray Sealant over the top. It says to apply 5 coats, 10 minutes apart - I'll probably go with 10.
I'll probably drive it for 30 minutes and let it sit overnight once everything's done and see of there's any evidence of leaks. After that, I'll just drive it as usual. It doesn't get many miles, so it will probably be a while before I either see a drip on the floor or get curious enough to remove the wheel and take another look. Maybe next oil change, which probably isn't until the Fall. I'll post an update, but it might be a while.
ATP AT-205 does work to swell old rubber back to nearly its original dimensions. The key here is that it works on rubber. RTV is silicone, not rubber. It will not absorb ATP AT-205.
Good luck with the smeared on RTV! I am watching this thread with keen interest. My timing cover leaks, but not enough to drip. Only 91K miles on my 2013. It started leaking probably around 5-10k miles ago or maybe further back.
I did the same thing as RichS 4 years ago, well minus the spray. It worked for over 3 years, but it’s seeping again. I tried using a few passes with the permatex spray a couple months ago, so we’ll see if that did anything when the car comes back later this year ( belongs to my kid). Honestly, if I had that much rust, I’d leave it leak since it’s the only part that’s not rusted.
I finally got around to working on this. Some photos below might be helpful to others. The AT-205 didn't seem to help, though I didn't expect it to. It's supposed to condition/swell rubber seals and gaskets. As this is just a bead of some type of sealant, leaving an extremely thin layer when tightened, I didn't expect there to be anything to absorb the material or swell. But at least all the other seals on a 14+ year old vehicle were treated.
As I wanted to get in and lay a bead of sealant from a tube, not just a spray can, I found it much easier to access from the from passenger wheel well, so everything below is with the car jacked up and supported, and the right front wheel off.
To help locate it, here's zooming in from outside the wheel well: (the blue item is my light)
I then used a couple applications of CRC heavy duty de-greaser, followed by a pass with brake cleaner, to prep everything. Again, zooming in
I then applied Permatex 27037 Optimum Black Gasket Maker. First, a thin pass that I tried to push into the seam with my (gloved) hand. Then, after wiping the surface, an actual bead all the way along. Around the banjo bolt is difficult access, so I just squirted a big blob and pushed it in. Hopefully it reached the seams.
I also tried tightening the bolts, but they were quite tight - I don't think I did anything.
This is supposed to dry 24 hours. I'll probably give it 48 and then apply Permatex 82099 Spray Sealant over the top. It says to apply 5 coats, 10 minutes apart - I'll probably go with 10.
I'll probably drive it for 30 minutes and let it sit overnight once everything's done and see of there's any evidence of leaks. After that, I'll just drive it as usual. It doesn't get many miles, so it will probably be a while before I either see a drip on the floor or get curious enough to remove the wheel and take another look. Maybe next oil change, which probably isn't until the Fall. I'll post an update, but it might be a while.
I am sure that massive amount of RTV will stop a low pressure oil leak for some time; especially if you also use the spray sealant on top of the RTV. I only used about 5 -6 layers of the spray sealant and my weeping timing cover leak has been slowed to the point that it is dry to the touch in that area.
I am hoping that my repair holds up until I can properly fix the timing cover myself(drop engine and sub-frame) or leave it be if the leak never gets worst.
01-04-24, 12:25 AM
