rayaans

My point was that he has an M3, so knows a good handling car when he drives it.

This is what he said
"Competitors - X5, Merc ML. Volvo XC90, Range Rover Sport - dynamically its better than all of them

Hybrid system not been changed, gearbox is much better than before, F Sport feels totally like a conventional automatic.

Hybrid whine has all but disappeared - just better in every single area.

Ride is fine even though its now on 20 inch rims - probably better than before and certainly no worse. Interior is a thing or real beauty but you need to spec the Mark Levinson - stunning quality

The new stuff - new models in the next few years that I did not think would get the go ahead - people will have to start taking notice of the brand

Did a series of slalom tests and avoidance tests and the RX definitely felty more compact, more controllable than the BMW and Merc - the Volvo and RR Sport were way behind

The press probably will not say the same but I trust the judgement of 20 ex race drivers more than motoring journalists."

SW17LS

All I will say is physics is physics. The guy is an ex race driver now?

rayaans

No, he works at the financing department.

Im just saying that there were also 20 ex-racing drivers testing all vehicles mentioned to see how they compare. Even if the RX is 70% of an X5, itd be good enough for me as long as it has a decent ride, smoothness and refinement of a Lexus as I really do not like the diesels in the competitors

SW17LS

I'm sure it will be all of those things, but it will not handle better than an X5.

Its like comparing an ES to a 5 Series. You could easily make an ES as luxurious and high quality as a 5 Series, but there isn't anything you can do to make it handle as well because of the inherent limitations of it being a fairly flexible FWD/transverse platform vs a rigid RWD/longditudinal setup.Its not that Lexus can't design a car that can out handle a BMW, look at the GS, IS, etc...its just that they can't do it with a FWD car.

ericsan13

This may be the gap in the discussion. Does it handle 'dynamically better' on the track or on the road? A F1 car may handle better on the track, but I certainly wouldn't want to drive it on the road.

I may be mistaken but I thought most high-end sports cars charge more for the privilege of AWD. Again race cars and track cars are not suitable for the real road.

The never ending battle of FWD vs. RWD continues.

SW17LS

The same is also going to be true for the road. Like I said, why are premium cars overwhelmingly RWD?

They do charge more for AWD, but AWD systems are not created equal. The AWD system in an RX is completely different from the AWD system in a GS, or IS, or LS. The sedan's systems are rear biased, 70% of the torque goes to the rear under normal circumstances. So, they feel more like RWD cars. The RX's system is 70% biased towards the front normally...so it feels like a FWD car.

There is no battle, RWD is the superior powertrain...all you have to do is look at what vehicles are manufactured RWD and what vehicles are manufactured FWD. No FWD Bentleys No RWD economy cars. FWD is an economy drivetrain.

I've owned FWD cars I've enjoyed very much. My Sedona is FWD...its fine...they make fine driving appliances. Put one into a freeway offramp at 60MPH though and you know its FWD. Accelerate through a curve and you know its FWD. If I'm going to spend $60,000+ for a vehicle, and the primary purpose of that vehicle is not just going to be carrying people (i.e my van, or a 3 row crossover, etc), having had RWD vehicles and becoming accustomed to them...I want a vehicle with the true longitudinal RWD layout...as a premium car should have IMHO. Thats always going to hold me back from embracing the RX.

rayaans

But then, isn't the RX450h supposed to be an economy vehicle?

In all honesty, the RX wasn't designed to be an awesome handling SUV though was it? The focus is mainly on luxury and comfort. The RX is a huge hit in the US, if it was better handling with a worse ride, would people still buy it? I'm not too sure, I don't think they would.

As for RWD it's a PITA in the snow, my RX does fairly well in the UK winter on standard summer tyres whereas my Mercedes sucks even with winter tyres and narrow 215 tyres.

Ultimately, buyers want an average handler with great ride quality at a good price with a good amount of kit as standard. People who buy the RX, me included, want isolation from the road and the RX is very good in that respect.

If the new RX has improved in all areas, it'll be another winner for Lexus

Oldfart

Isn't it exactly what SW15LS was saying all along that BMW is better handling SUV. Now you bring up totally different argument which is "luxury and comfort". Are you now saying that RX is more luxurious than BMW SUV?

Just because RX is luxury enough, comfortable enough and well handling SUV does not make it better handling than RWD. Good enough is different argument. I think that 90% will never tell the difference between FWD and RWD and other 10% do not have the opportunity to experience difference most of the time.

rayaans

Well actually he said the BMW was better handling but we don't know that yet. From early reports it's looking very good for the Lexus and I've been told it's dynamically better than an X5 on a slalom. Take that how you will.

Just because a car is RWD doesn't mean it handles better. It's just one part in a huge puzzle. My RX handles just as good as my Merc which is RWD and should therefore be superior. Then you have the Honda Civic Type R which handles better than my Merc too.

And IMO I think the new RX is more luxurious than the X5. I don't need to option a leather dash unlike the X5 or seats with lumbar support for the driver and passenger. Hell the RX in the UK is coming with safety system + as standard fitment on all grades which is impressive.

Don't know about the US but here in the UK, Lexus vehicles feel much more premium and special than any German vehicle does. The German cars over here are either on stupidly cheap leases, poverty pack specification without leather or even sat nav and driven mostly by salesmen doing 200 miles a day sat on the motorway.

SW17LS

What?!? Its a $55,000+ luxury car! Its not an economy vehicle.

You're the one comparing its handling to the X5, not me. I agree, its not supposed to be that way...I wouldn't even compare the two, but you seem to need to think it the best at everything and its not. No vehicle is.

Which is why you have RWD based AWD systems. My GS was great in the snow, and also fun to drive when its not snowing which is typically. As for your Mercedes sucking with winter tires...RWD cars with winter tires are excellent in the snow. Not everybody is a great snow driver. I'd much rather have a RWD car with winter tires than an AWD car with all season tires.

No doubt, but it won't be the best handler in the segment is my only point. Thats okay...but we have to call a spade a spade.

If you're comparing two similar vehicles...it does. A 5 series or GS handles better than an ES or TLX. And the X5 will handle better than an RX. Like I said, its about weight distribution more than even the drive wheels. You won't find a FWD vehicle with neutral weight distribution.

rayaans

Im not comparing them at all. Ive driven the BMW X5 but not the 4th Gen RX. I am just going off what the testers at the training day said - ie "RX is dynamically better than the X5". Of course, I will have to test this myself but Id still be happy if the RX rides better with slightly worse handling.

RWD based AWD systems arent available in the UK. We only get the RX and NX in AWD. Im not too sure, winter tyres on the Merc made a big difference, but not enough to call it safe like the RX which is competent in the snow.

As for the X5, it wont get up a snowy steep hill whereas the RX will. This has been tested in my Surgery which has a steep hill towards the exit. I dont know if this is to do with the RWD based system or the fat tyres on the X5, but in my 20 years of driving, Ive never seen an FWD vehicle having trouble in snow as much as an RWD vehicle.

SW17LS

FWD vehicles are better getting started from a stop in snowy weather than a RWD vehicle, but are actually at a disadvantage when it comes to controlling the vehicle since the drive wheels and the steering wheels are the same wheels. When you loose traction from accelerating, you also loose the ability to steer. In. RWD vehicle you don't, which is why a RWD vehicle with snow tires is typically better.

Ask a professional driver which they would prefer in the snow. I preferred FWD in the snow too until I was educated and shown why it's actually not preferable.

As for RWD based AWD cars in the UK. you don't have any AWD BMWs?

As for BMWs, you've said you've only driven the M Sport. Only the M Sport has big wide 20" wheels. I know several people with X5s and theirs are fine in the snow.

The RX is hardly a snow beast, especially the hybrid. Fairly unsophisticated AWD system.

rayaans

I understand what you're saying and that's where the trouble is. The Merc genuinely has trouble moving from a standstill which is the main problem.

AWD BMWs have only just started coming out in the UK. We have no AWD Lexus cars or Mercs apart from the A45 and CLA45.

Im only going to buy an X5 in M Sport trim as I don't like the look of the other one. It comes with super wide tyres which are really bad in the snow. No point in comparing with the base versions as I'd never buy them ever.

SW17LS

If we're having a discussion about the vehicles as vehicles and how they compare with each other we need to look past what we personally would buy. You can't say "the X5 won't drive up a driveway because of the huge wheels" when only one trim has huge wheels

Perhaps you should start saying that "I prefer the RX" instead of "the RX is better". The first is a statement of your preference.

coolsaber

-Porsche is the benchmark of onroad performance, however its pricey
-BMW offers comparable onroad performance at a lower cost

Both RWD, rear biased AWD (BMW can change 100% of available torque front to back), Torque Vectoring, active suspension management, and at least 300 HP.

I`m pretty sure Lexus RX designers have realized this with their performance push hence the

-F-Sport will begin to offer active suspension components similar to the GS.
-300 HP V6

Its missing
-a rear biased awd*
-torque vectoring*
-RWD
*of course this could be subject to change as official details about the powertrain has been thoroughly document

Since TMC, believes in platform sharing (nothing wrong with that even german brands do it i.e Macan, Tiguan, q5) it depends on what kind of platform strengthening they have done. It will be improved I can assume, however a FWD SUV is still an FWD SUV. Some automakers have gone with a lighter engine (ie. Xc90) to reduce weight over the front tires, but its not a cure all. Others have gone with trick AWD (Acura MDX SH-AWD). This system in the MDX works but you only experienced drivers can fully exploit this wunder trick, so again most of the time its a fwd car.