REVIEW: SC300 5spd VS Legend 6spd
01-23-02, 02:55 PM
#16
Sorry, not meaning to stereotype; but thats how the Legend is viewed around here.
the GS300 was out in 92. Ah I see you are talking about the coupe now.
As for the Type-R and FWD... hehe this is going to get good.
::Steps on his preaching podium::
The ITR is a FWD 4cyl with no torque. By comparing it to be better handling to any car Lexus has ever had is a moot point. Lexus is a FULL luxury car brand; not a partial one like Acura. But if you want to step down to Toyota; there are two cars that will outhandle the ITR. The 95 MR2 Turbo and the 93.5-98 SupraTT. I won't even go into straightline speed here.
The reason FWD sucks is for several reasons, but I can see you want the reason that it sucks in fast turns. I'll speak about this one first. Well when loading up the front wheels with the power, the drivetrain lag and push, the steering, and the grip factor; a FWD will plow like a ****. Now, the Type-R has much less of this problem; its a well designed FWD car. But it still plows quite a good bit; and you'll never get an aftermarket suspension to make it better than Honda's stock suspension is. Its just tuned that way; and unless you plan on a $1500 set of coilovers and countless other suspension goodies; its not going to be any better than stock.
RWD cars oversteer; because the power is being applied to the rear, and also from drivetrain lag. The rear end will kick out when in high speed turns without correct weight transfer (be in acceleration, deceleration, etc). RWD also allows you to accelerate through a turn much better because the weight is being pushed to the rear; and you don't have to worry about losing traction as much as you would on a FWD; which steers, brakes, and accelerates with the same set of tires.
Oversteering is MUCH better to have than understeer. It can be controlled to a point. Understeer can't very easily be controlled; you have to mash on the brake to force the front wheels to grip and turn in the correct direction. Know what this does? This slows you down... with oversteering, you can still drift through a turn without losing control and without slowing down too much. RWD and MRWD cars can hold more speed in a turn for this and several other reasons. (weight transfer too)
Which brings me to my next point. FWD sucks because of traction issues and some other stuff associated with that. Have you ever driven a high-hp fwd car? Go drive a Eclipse GS-T with all the boltons. Ever heard of torque steer? It rips the steering wheel from your hands and forces you to use both hands on the steering wheel to control the car and keep it from flying off the road.
RWD cars don't have this problem. The natural weight transfer to the rear gives them a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher advantage in traction. Wings and spoilers are actually useful on these cars because they add downforce to the rear; while wings on a FWD car (namely Legends, Civics, and other look fast-go slow cars) do nothing but sit there and look out of place.
There are more reasons FWD sucks. But the ONLY three benefits are that there is less of a drivetrain loss to the frontwheels with no driveshaft and other related pieces. Usually around a 12-14% loss as opposed to 15-18%
But this factor is moot since the FWD car would be spinning while the RWD would get traction (or better traction
at Scott's car with no-LSD)
the second reason is because they generally leave more room on the inside of the car with no driveshaft or transmission tunnel to take up room.
the third reason is, most people don't push their cars... we are not most people... but joe blow who goes to pick up his groceries will not be taking turns fast enough to plow; he's a normal driver... but we're talking about racing here
But back to the point, they don't push their car hard enough; in a FWD car, fixing a plow is a natural reaction for normal drivers; they jam on the brakes... many people are scared of RWD because of this factor; they don't know how to control it at all... if they jammed on the brakes in a skid; you know exactly what would happen... the rear end would kick around hard and they'd spin out and prolly get in a wreck if there's other cars around... if they hadn't hit the brakes and had turn the wheel to the direction the rear is sliding and modulated the gas to keep trying to make the rear-end grip and catch; then they'd be fine. but its more complicated; and most drivers; read 99% of drivers; could not understand the mechanics behind this.
There's your reasons. Anymore questions? Let me know
the GS300 was out in 92. Ah I see you are talking about the coupe now.
As for the Type-R and FWD... hehe this is going to get good.
::Steps on his preaching podium::
The ITR is a FWD 4cyl with no torque. By comparing it to be better handling to any car Lexus has ever had is a moot point. Lexus is a FULL luxury car brand; not a partial one like Acura. But if you want to step down to Toyota; there are two cars that will outhandle the ITR. The 95 MR2 Turbo and the 93.5-98 SupraTT. I won't even go into straightline speed here.
The reason FWD sucks is for several reasons, but I can see you want the reason that it sucks in fast turns. I'll speak about this one first. Well when loading up the front wheels with the power, the drivetrain lag and push, the steering, and the grip factor; a FWD will plow like a ****. Now, the Type-R has much less of this problem; its a well designed FWD car. But it still plows quite a good bit; and you'll never get an aftermarket suspension to make it better than Honda's stock suspension is. Its just tuned that way; and unless you plan on a $1500 set of coilovers and countless other suspension goodies; its not going to be any better than stock.
RWD cars oversteer; because the power is being applied to the rear, and also from drivetrain lag. The rear end will kick out when in high speed turns without correct weight transfer (be in acceleration, deceleration, etc). RWD also allows you to accelerate through a turn much better because the weight is being pushed to the rear; and you don't have to worry about losing traction as much as you would on a FWD; which steers, brakes, and accelerates with the same set of tires.
Oversteering is MUCH better to have than understeer. It can be controlled to a point. Understeer can't very easily be controlled; you have to mash on the brake to force the front wheels to grip and turn in the correct direction. Know what this does? This slows you down... with oversteering, you can still drift through a turn without losing control and without slowing down too much. RWD and MRWD cars can hold more speed in a turn for this and several other reasons. (weight transfer too)
Which brings me to my next point. FWD sucks because of traction issues and some other stuff associated with that. Have you ever driven a high-hp fwd car? Go drive a Eclipse GS-T with all the boltons. Ever heard of torque steer? It rips the steering wheel from your hands and forces you to use both hands on the steering wheel to control the car and keep it from flying off the road.
RWD cars don't have this problem. The natural weight transfer to the rear gives them a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher advantage in traction. Wings and spoilers are actually useful on these cars because they add downforce to the rear; while wings on a FWD car (namely Legends, Civics, and other look fast-go slow cars) do nothing but sit there and look out of place.
There are more reasons FWD sucks. But the ONLY three benefits are that there is less of a drivetrain loss to the frontwheels with no driveshaft and other related pieces. Usually around a 12-14% loss as opposed to 15-18%
But this factor is moot since the FWD car would be spinning while the RWD would get traction (or better traction
at Scott's car with no-LSD)the second reason is because they generally leave more room on the inside of the car with no driveshaft or transmission tunnel to take up room.
the third reason is, most people don't push their cars... we are not most people... but joe blow who goes to pick up his groceries will not be taking turns fast enough to plow; he's a normal driver... but we're talking about racing here
But back to the point, they don't push their car hard enough; in a FWD car, fixing a plow is a natural reaction for normal drivers; they jam on the brakes... many people are scared of RWD because of this factor; they don't know how to control it at all... if they jammed on the brakes in a skid; you know exactly what would happen... the rear end would kick around hard and they'd spin out and prolly get in a wreck if there's other cars around... if they hadn't hit the brakes and had turn the wheel to the direction the rear is sliding and modulated the gas to keep trying to make the rear-end grip and catch; then they'd be fine. but its more complicated; and most drivers; read 99% of drivers; could not understand the mechanics behind this.There's your reasons. Anymore questions? Let me know
Last edited by Bean; 01-23-02 at 02:58 PM.
01-23-02, 03:28 PM
#17
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
nice writeup. there's just ONE thing... i didnt say FWD is better than RWD. as i said, i DO prefer my RWD
and what VQT said is FWD has its benefits, most notable i can think of is that its easier to drive in winter/ice/snow situations
and like you said, most ppl would never realized the diff between FWD and RWD.
as for the ITR, i DID say LEXUS, as i would compare lexus to acura. whereas toyota to honda. and ITR does handle better anything out of the lexus crop. i know this is a lexus board and the bias is that lexus is better than acura and toyota is better than honda. but i dont look at it that way, the diff is smaller than one would think and it totally depend upon the driver and their purpose for driving (not everyone drive to race =).
as for 1st generation GS300 and Legend. i dont see any resemblence even in the sedans. G2 Legend is a carry over from G1 Legend as early as '87. so the rip-off thing is still beyond me
and what VQT said is FWD has its benefits, most notable i can think of is that its easier to drive in winter/ice/snow situations
and like you said, most ppl would never realized the diff between FWD and RWD.
as for the ITR, i DID say LEXUS, as i would compare lexus to acura. whereas toyota to honda. and ITR does handle better anything out of the lexus crop. i know this is a lexus board and the bias is that lexus is better than acura and toyota is better than honda. but i dont look at it that way, the diff is smaller than one would think and it totally depend upon the driver and their purpose for driving (not everyone drive to race =).
as for 1st generation GS300 and Legend. i dont see any resemblence even in the sedans. G2 Legend is a carry over from G1 Legend as early as '87. so the rip-off thing is still beyond me
01-23-02, 06:39 PM
#18
Lexus Champion
Wow Bean, at least you understand the difference between FWD & RWD. I don't race or do 1/4 mile. I just want to drive my Corvette on nice sunny days, my SC400 when there are no snow on the ground and long trip, and a front wheel drive car to drive on snow day and take the wife to the supermarket
you don't want me to ruin my two SC400 when there is snow on the ground do you
you don't want me to ruin my two SC400 when there is snow on the ground do you
Originally posted by Bean
Sorry, not meaning to stereotype; but thats how the Legend is viewed around here.
the GS300 was out in 92. Ah I see you are talking about the coupe now.
As for the Type-R and FWD... hehe this is going to get good.
::Steps on his preaching podium::
The ITR is a FWD 4cyl with no torque. By comparing it to be better handling to any car Lexus has ever had is a moot point. Lexus is a FULL luxury car brand; not a partial one like Acura. But if you want to step down to Toyota; there are two cars that will outhandle the ITR. The 95 MR2 Turbo and the 93.5-98 SupraTT. I won't even go into straightline speed here.
The reason FWD sucks is for several reasons, but I can see you want the reason that it sucks in fast turns. I'll speak about this one first. Well when loading up the front wheels with the power, the drivetrain lag and push, the steering, and the grip factor; a FWD will plow like a ****. Now, the Type-R has much less of this problem; its a well designed FWD car. But it still plows quite a good bit; and you'll never get an aftermarket suspension to make it better than Honda's stock suspension is. Its just tuned that way; and unless you plan on a $1500 set of coilovers and countless other suspension goodies; its not going to be any better than stock.
RWD cars oversteer; because the power is being applied to the rear, and also from drivetrain lag. The rear end will kick out when in high speed turns without correct weight transfer (be in acceleration, deceleration, etc). RWD also allows you to accelerate through a turn much better because the weight is being pushed to the rear; and you don't have to worry about losing traction as much as you would on a FWD; which steers, brakes, and accelerates with the same set of tires.
Oversteering is MUCH better to have than understeer. It can be controlled to a point. Understeer can't very easily be controlled; you have to mash on the brake to force the front wheels to grip and turn in the correct direction. Know what this does? This slows you down... with oversteering, you can still drift through a turn without losing control and without slowing down too much. RWD and MRWD cars can hold more speed in a turn for this and several other reasons. (weight transfer too)
Which brings me to my next point. FWD sucks because of traction issues and some other stuff associated with that. Have you ever driven a high-hp fwd car? Go drive a Eclipse GS-T with all the boltons. Ever heard of torque steer? It rips the steering wheel from your hands and forces you to use both hands on the steering wheel to control the car and keep it from flying off the road.
RWD cars don't have this problem. The natural weight transfer to the rear gives them a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher advantage in traction. Wings and spoilers are actually useful on these cars because they add downforce to the rear; while wings on a FWD car (namely Legends, Civics, and other look fast-go slow cars) do nothing but sit there and look out of place.
There are more reasons FWD sucks. But the ONLY three benefits are that there is less of a drivetrain loss to the frontwheels with no driveshaft and other related pieces. Usually around a 12-14% loss as opposed to 15-18%
But this factor is moot since the FWD car would be spinning while the RWD would get traction (or better traction at Scott's car with no-LSD)
the second reason is because they generally leave more room on the inside of the car with no driveshaft or transmission tunnel to take up room.
the third reason is, most people don't push their cars... we are not most people... but joe blow who goes to pick up his groceries will not be taking turns fast enough to plow; he's a normal driver... but we're talking about racing here But back to the point, they don't push their car hard enough; in a FWD car, fixing a plow is a natural reaction for normal drivers; they jam on the brakes... many people are scared of RWD because of this factor; they don't know how to control it at all... if they jammed on the brakes in a skid; you know exactly what would happen... the rear end would kick around hard and they'd spin out and prolly get in a wreck if there's other cars around... if they hadn't hit the brakes and had turn the wheel to the direction the rear is sliding and modulated the gas to keep trying to make the rear-end grip and catch; then they'd be fine. but its more complicated; and most drivers; read 99% of drivers; could not understand the mechanics behind this.
There's your reasons. Anymore questions? Let me know
Sorry, not meaning to stereotype; but thats how the Legend is viewed around here.
the GS300 was out in 92. Ah I see you are talking about the coupe now.
As for the Type-R and FWD... hehe this is going to get good.
::Steps on his preaching podium::
The ITR is a FWD 4cyl with no torque. By comparing it to be better handling to any car Lexus has ever had is a moot point. Lexus is a FULL luxury car brand; not a partial one like Acura. But if you want to step down to Toyota; there are two cars that will outhandle the ITR. The 95 MR2 Turbo and the 93.5-98 SupraTT. I won't even go into straightline speed here.
The reason FWD sucks is for several reasons, but I can see you want the reason that it sucks in fast turns. I'll speak about this one first. Well when loading up the front wheels with the power, the drivetrain lag and push, the steering, and the grip factor; a FWD will plow like a ****. Now, the Type-R has much less of this problem; its a well designed FWD car. But it still plows quite a good bit; and you'll never get an aftermarket suspension to make it better than Honda's stock suspension is. Its just tuned that way; and unless you plan on a $1500 set of coilovers and countless other suspension goodies; its not going to be any better than stock.
RWD cars oversteer; because the power is being applied to the rear, and also from drivetrain lag. The rear end will kick out when in high speed turns without correct weight transfer (be in acceleration, deceleration, etc). RWD also allows you to accelerate through a turn much better because the weight is being pushed to the rear; and you don't have to worry about losing traction as much as you would on a FWD; which steers, brakes, and accelerates with the same set of tires.
Oversteering is MUCH better to have than understeer. It can be controlled to a point. Understeer can't very easily be controlled; you have to mash on the brake to force the front wheels to grip and turn in the correct direction. Know what this does? This slows you down... with oversteering, you can still drift through a turn without losing control and without slowing down too much. RWD and MRWD cars can hold more speed in a turn for this and several other reasons. (weight transfer too)
Which brings me to my next point. FWD sucks because of traction issues and some other stuff associated with that. Have you ever driven a high-hp fwd car? Go drive a Eclipse GS-T with all the boltons. Ever heard of torque steer? It rips the steering wheel from your hands and forces you to use both hands on the steering wheel to control the car and keep it from flying off the road.
RWD cars don't have this problem. The natural weight transfer to the rear gives them a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher advantage in traction. Wings and spoilers are actually useful on these cars because they add downforce to the rear; while wings on a FWD car (namely Legends, Civics, and other look fast-go slow cars) do nothing but sit there and look out of place.
There are more reasons FWD sucks. But the ONLY three benefits are that there is less of a drivetrain loss to the frontwheels with no driveshaft and other related pieces. Usually around a 12-14% loss as opposed to 15-18%
But this factor is moot since the FWD car would be spinning while the RWD would get traction (or better traction
at Scott's car with no-LSD)the second reason is because they generally leave more room on the inside of the car with no driveshaft or transmission tunnel to take up room.
the third reason is, most people don't push their cars... we are not most people... but joe blow who goes to pick up his groceries will not be taking turns fast enough to plow; he's a normal driver... but we're talking about racing here
But back to the point, they don't push their car hard enough; in a FWD car, fixing a plow is a natural reaction for normal drivers; they jam on the brakes... many people are scared of RWD because of this factor; they don't know how to control it at all... if they jammed on the brakes in a skid; you know exactly what would happen... the rear end would kick around hard and they'd spin out and prolly get in a wreck if there's other cars around... if they hadn't hit the brakes and had turn the wheel to the direction the rear is sliding and modulated the gas to keep trying to make the rear-end grip and catch; then they'd be fine. but its more complicated; and most drivers; read 99% of drivers; could not understand the mechanics behind this.There's your reasons. Anymore questions? Let me know
01-23-02, 11:56 PM
#22
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice post Bean, but you forgot AWD/4WD.
AWD has its advantages too: 1) First and foremost it is good in any all-weather. 2) It definitely handles better than FWD, my Impreza handled very well with the factory suspension, but ridding in one with TEIN coilovers and Hoosiers was simply amazing (though the only RWD vehicle that I've driven is my father's pickup truck so I can't speak for rear wheel drive cars). 3) AWD cars lurch forward like a bat out of hell in drag races.
You do, however, lose a lot of the power through the drivetrain, and the tranny's take a lot of the abuse because the wheels don't spin out.
ROFLMAO
AWD has its advantages too: 1) First and foremost it is good in any all-weather. 2) It definitely handles better than FWD, my Impreza handled very well with the factory suspension, but ridding in one with TEIN coilovers and Hoosiers was simply amazing (though the only RWD vehicle that I've driven is my father's pickup truck so I can't speak for rear wheel drive cars). 3) AWD cars lurch forward like a bat out of hell in drag races.
You do, however, lose a lot of the power through the drivetrain, and the tranny's take a lot of the abuse because the wheels don't spin out.
Originally posted by sc300tt
Yes....but I have since gone back in the closet.
Yes....but I have since gone back in the closet.
ROFLMAO
01-24-02, 12:06 AM
#23
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Iwakuni, Japan
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hmmm, I own a low mileage, mint condition 95 6spd Coupe and have to say it is a wonderful car, my dream car to be exact. [pic attached]
But hold up a sec, I also own a 92 Toyota Soarer 2500cc Twin Turbo.
You really cant compare the two.
Both of these vehicles are great cars, and I'll leave it at that.
But hold up a sec, I also own a 92 Toyota Soarer 2500cc Twin Turbo.
You really cant compare the two.
Both of these vehicles are great cars, and I'll leave it at that.
01-24-02, 05:05 AM
#24
Lexus Test Driver
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LOL.....FWD=gay.....i agree for any car with power....for a daily driver its great.....i still miss my 89 crx si...and 2 cars before i bought my sc300 i was looking hard at 2 door legends..but never found a 6spd....they are a nice car..but there FWD.....and no mods avialable...
i wouldnt trade my sc300 for anything..i freaking love this car....only car i ever kept for more than a year.......Jeff
i wouldnt trade my sc300 for anything..i freaking love this car....only car i ever kept for more than a year.......Jeff
01-24-02, 07:30 AM
#26
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
DKM, seems like you just reaffirmed exactly what I was talkin about earlier. Bottom line is, both are great cars. and for the ppl that can't stand FWD, great, SC300 would fit just fine. Although I can see the quattro/awd/4wd owners puttin down RWD using similiar logic...
DKM, do you have any more pix of your legend? please post
DKM, do you have any more pix of your legend? please post
01-24-02, 08:04 AM
#28
Driver
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by sc300tt
Yes....but I have since gone back in the closet.
Yes....but I have since gone back in the closet.
01-24-02, 10:34 AM
#29
hehe
To argue one point, I still think its not fair to compare Lexus and Acura as a brand... Acura has a lot of non-luxury cars like the NSX, the Integra, the RSX, etc... all of them pale in comparison to the luxury of the Lexus cars...
Lexus is a full luxury brand... there is no "performance" Lexus that is meant for racing or anything like that... the really fast one, now being the GS400 or 430, is not a handling car by any means... Acura has both some luxury and "performance" cars (if you can call them that)...
Honda decided to make its performance cars up in the Acura lineup; Toyota could have done the same thing; and you would have seen a Lexus Supra or a Lexus MR2. And the Supra wouldn't have cost $90k either like the pitifully slow for the money NSX.
To the discussion of snow, I still think rwd is better in snow. If you start sliding in a FWD, do youknow where you'd be sliding from? Yup from entering a corner too fast... and you plow off the road... I've seen more wrecks from slipping in snow related to FWD vehicles. The best car to have in snow is an AWD vehicle.
And to the point of AWD, its awsome My friend has a WRX, and their stock tires suck; but they are still awsome; they are super tossable and corner like a SOB. They have limited slip in their front and rear diffs; and you can tell; they grip better than DSMs and cut 1.8s 60' bone stock and 1.6s with the typical boltons. But they still aren't as tossable as a RWD vehicle; in turning, most AWD vehicles just don't respond as well; it takes them longer to react, if that makes sense. Their drivetrain lag and push isn't just in the back; its the front too where the steering is. The Skyline, for example, kind of gets around this rule. Its RWD until it loses traction. thats why it weighs a lot but is still very tossable and goes around turns that it has no business doing with that kind of weight
To argue one point, I still think its not fair to compare Lexus and Acura as a brand... Acura has a lot of non-luxury cars like the NSX, the Integra, the RSX, etc... all of them pale in comparison to the luxury of the Lexus cars...
Lexus is a full luxury brand... there is no "performance" Lexus that is meant for racing or anything like that... the really fast one, now being the GS400 or 430, is not a handling car by any means... Acura has both some luxury and "performance" cars (if you can call them that)...
Honda decided to make its performance cars up in the Acura lineup; Toyota could have done the same thing; and you would have seen a Lexus Supra or a Lexus MR2. And the Supra wouldn't have cost $90k either like the pitifully slow for the money NSX.
To the discussion of snow, I still think rwd is better in snow. If you start sliding in a FWD, do youknow where you'd be sliding from? Yup from entering a corner too fast... and you plow off the road... I've seen more wrecks from slipping in snow related to FWD vehicles. The best car to have in snow is an AWD vehicle.
And to the point of AWD, its awsome
My friend has a WRX, and their stock tires suck; but they are still awsome; they are super tossable and corner like a SOB. They have limited slip in their front and rear diffs; and you can tell; they grip better than DSMs and cut 1.8s 60' bone stock and 1.6s with the typical boltons. But they still aren't as tossable as a RWD vehicle; in turning, most AWD vehicles just don't respond as well; it takes them longer to react, if that makes sense. Their drivetrain lag and push isn't just in the back; its the front too where the steering is. The Skyline, for example, kind of gets around this rule. Its RWD until it loses traction. thats why it weighs a lot but is still very tossable and goes around turns that it has no business doing with that kind of weight
01-24-02, 11:41 AM
#30
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Bean, you make good points there.
But RWD better than FWD in snow, I donno about that. And I think easily the majority of the population would agree that FWD is better. Sure, i know what you mean, but not EVERYONE is a skilled driver like you. Heck, I bet you can drive a NWD (no wheel drive) better than a FWD
Seriously though, here's the thing, I know you dont think much of Acura, but what defines luxury? I mean, you said Lexus is FULL luxury brand, okay, i agree with that, but we all know Acura makes AFFORDABLE-luxury cars. It is not meant to be the same level as a full luxury Lexus Vehicle, but they are definitely close enough to be COMPARABLE.
Take '92-95 Lexus SC300 and '92-95 Legend Coupe LS for example. They are every bit as comparable. SC is LS level (flagship) but coupe. Legend is the Acura flagship but the coupe version. There is almost nothing you have on the SC that can not be found on the Legend (LS top of the line model). Sure you can argue the minor details of a couple of things here and there, but you can make a case both ways as there are things on the Legend that is not available on the Lexus (what kind of full luxury car has no audio steering wheel control? - i cant stand that about my SC300). both are above $50k mark fully loaded.
Granted, SINCE the Legend went away, Acura has made nothing spectacular. They stayed in the affordable luxury category while Lexus kept moving up to compete with the big boys MB & BMW.
then again, Mercedes owners often frown when Lexus owners claim to be a full luxury car. If you ask me, a BENZ is the true definition of a FULL LUXURY brand and Lexus pales in comparison (but still comparable).
It's all in the eyes of the beholder... and how you want to define the term luxury.
Leather seats? heated seats? wood trim? moonroof? powerful/reliable engine? smoothness? Refinement? Quality? Image? Nav system? Power seats, auto windows?
I mean, if thats the definition of Luxury... all those equipments can be found on both acura and lexus. so both brand are comparable. If it's the image of luxury, then go back to what i said about Benz and Lexus.
My pt is, it IS FAIR to compare them. Yes acura has teg/rsx, but lexus also has IS300, which isn't exactly a Lexus-quality LUXURY car.
And o yah, your comment about the NSX: I'd be the first to agree that NSX is VERY OVERRATED at $80-90k. However, I think NSX's speed is also very UNDERrated. Pitiful slow for the money but definitely not pitiful slow. Especially not the turbo version. But then again, speed alone is not what defines the NSX. It's like those ppl that says a porsche boxster is pitiful slow for its money, why not get a S2k for half the $?
I guess its all to its own. Everyone want to feel better about the cars they own. Thru all the hype and exaggeration and evangelism, somewhere lies in the middle is the truth, and the truth is, there are many great cars out there in diff sizes, shapes, drivetrains, and power. PPL drive cars for diff reasons and purpose and perceive them differently. What we can nitpick here on a forum on a situation that pushes cars to 99% of their capabilities and happens 0.01% of the times doesn't justify one car being 'better' than another.
Whew! there's my term paper
But RWD better than FWD in snow, I donno about that. And I think easily the majority of the population would agree that FWD is better. Sure, i know what you mean, but not EVERYONE is a skilled driver like you. Heck, I bet you can drive a NWD (no wheel drive) better than a FWD
Seriously though, here's the thing, I know you dont think much of Acura, but what defines luxury? I mean, you said Lexus is FULL luxury brand, okay, i agree with that, but we all know Acura makes AFFORDABLE-luxury cars. It is not meant to be the same level as a full luxury Lexus Vehicle, but they are definitely close enough to be COMPARABLE.
Take '92-95 Lexus SC300 and '92-95 Legend Coupe LS for example. They are every bit as comparable. SC is LS level (flagship) but coupe. Legend is the Acura flagship but the coupe version. There is almost nothing you have on the SC that can not be found on the Legend (LS top of the line model). Sure you can argue the minor details of a couple of things here and there, but you can make a case both ways as there are things on the Legend that is not available on the Lexus (what kind of full luxury car has no audio steering wheel control? - i cant stand that about my SC300). both are above $50k mark fully loaded.
Granted, SINCE the Legend went away, Acura has made nothing spectacular. They stayed in the affordable luxury category while Lexus kept moving up to compete with the big boys MB & BMW.
then again, Mercedes owners often frown when Lexus owners claim to be a full luxury car. If you ask me, a BENZ is the true definition of a FULL LUXURY brand and Lexus pales in comparison (but still comparable).
It's all in the eyes of the beholder... and how you want to define the term luxury.
Leather seats? heated seats? wood trim? moonroof? powerful/reliable engine? smoothness? Refinement? Quality? Image? Nav system? Power seats, auto windows?
I mean, if thats the definition of Luxury... all those equipments can be found on both acura and lexus. so both brand are comparable. If it's the image of luxury, then go back to what i said about Benz and Lexus.
My pt is, it IS FAIR to compare them. Yes acura has teg/rsx, but lexus also has IS300, which isn't exactly a Lexus-quality LUXURY car.
And o yah, your comment about the NSX: I'd be the first to agree that NSX is VERY OVERRATED at $80-90k. However, I think NSX's speed is also very UNDERrated. Pitiful slow for the money but definitely not pitiful slow. Especially not the turbo version. But then again, speed alone is not what defines the NSX. It's like those ppl that says a porsche boxster is pitiful slow for its money, why not get a S2k for half the $?
I guess its all to its own. Everyone want to feel better about the cars they own. Thru all the hype and exaggeration and evangelism, somewhere lies in the middle is the truth, and the truth is, there are many great cars out there in diff sizes, shapes, drivetrains, and power. PPL drive cars for diff reasons and purpose and perceive them differently. What we can nitpick here on a forum on a situation that pushes cars to 99% of their capabilities and happens 0.01% of the times doesn't justify one car being 'better' than another.
Whew! there's my term paper
Last edited by Legends6spd; 01-24-02 at 11:44 AM.