cheap Supra MkIV using SC300/400
12-28-12, 10:33 PM
#32
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Many thanks to xspsi6 and KahnBB6 for sound advice (on the thread and by PM).
I figured because the Celica All-Trac is so old, solutions to it's many problems might be available, so I spent hours working on solutions yesterday and today. The short answer is an ALL-TRAC SUCKS FOR AUTOCROSS! Other issues can be rectified, but the 60/40 weight bias, viscous (50/50) transfer case (part of combo-tranny), and severe understeer problem are significant; besides the overstuffed engine bay and mechanical shortcomings. Why didn't Toyota extend the framerails, move the front subframe 6" forward, and extend the nose? it would have correct weight balance, and there would be space to work on the engine. Even better would be longitudinal mount, but they took ~25 years to figure that out again for sports-compact cars.
KahnBB6, you really nailed this subject:
"...you may want to hold off on any expenditure for now."
" I found the mean average price range for a respectable performance car in that caliber in Cali to be about $15k-$20k"
"They just have to come down in used values."
I'm going to wait at least a couple years to autocross, for the 2004+ cars mentioned in this thread (Evo, Subie EJ25x, other AWD Turbos) to come down in price. I may just buy a cash car to maintain as-is or upgrade inexpensively, and then buy/build an autocross car in a couple years. If my living situation allows, I'll maintain two cars as I have most of my adult life.
SC300/SC400 - use as designed. Do the obvious upgrades. Can't autocross, but I can drift! I may still go ahead and lighten the SC, though I know I will not achieve autocross performance. "Poor Man's Supra" may just happen after all.
IS300
2000-2005 Celica GT-S - FWD but it places well in autocross
Real AE86: (VIN JT2AE88..) 85-87 Corolla GT-S - I'm a sucker for history [4A-GE 5-SPD RWD LSD]
240SX - RWD, adequate suspension with good upgrade path, lame power from KA24DE - but can thrash on it all day long and if I blow an engine - replacements come cheap
Japanese FWD, potential models: Toyota Grocery, Honda Rice, Nissan OilLeak - just a low price cash car to thrash on; abuse and throw away. Get a real car in a couple years.
Something pre-smog that is already restored, even if not done well or finished: Datsun, BMW, Volvo, ?, 1970-75 Toyota Celica.
350Z, M3 - compromise solutions that can be bought now, used for autocross, and kept long term
Though only mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I may take a 240Z/510/Celica, especially with a fiberglass kit (especially one that has since worn out or was never completed), and have fabrication done to mount late model front and rear subframes from a late model sportscar, and drivetrain from either a sportscar or a luxury car. There's a shop in my area that specializes in this type of work, but I'd need to move to where I have shop-space to complete the project, and no doubt: to keep reworking stuff. There are two main advantages to this plan:
* The resulting car would be smaller and lighter than a luxurious sports car, and far lighter than a donor luxury car of a drivetrain. "Poor Man's LFA"
* I'd avoid California SMOG laws, could even use JDM exclusive models.
From what I learned on this thread, I might do better with a small die-cast aluminum engine with an upgraded modern no-lag turbo system than an aluminum V8, with the matching (small, light, low unsprung weight) subframes. The shop likes to retrofit Miata subframes, because they only have a few bolts so are easy for them to fabricate. They build race-cars, but will do hobby cars as long as they are pre-smog.
I figured because the Celica All-Trac is so old, solutions to it's many problems might be available, so I spent hours working on solutions yesterday and today. The short answer is an ALL-TRAC SUCKS FOR AUTOCROSS! Other issues can be rectified, but the 60/40 weight bias, viscous (50/50) transfer case (part of combo-tranny), and severe understeer problem are significant; besides the overstuffed engine bay and mechanical shortcomings. Why didn't Toyota extend the framerails, move the front subframe 6" forward, and extend the nose? it would have correct weight balance, and there would be space to work on the engine. Even better would be longitudinal mount, but they took ~25 years to figure that out again for sports-compact cars.
KahnBB6, you really nailed this subject:
"...you may want to hold off on any expenditure for now."
" I found the mean average price range for a respectable performance car in that caliber in Cali to be about $15k-$20k"
"They just have to come down in used values."
I'm going to wait at least a couple years to autocross, for the 2004+ cars mentioned in this thread (Evo, Subie EJ25x, other AWD Turbos) to come down in price. I may just buy a cash car to maintain as-is or upgrade inexpensively, and then buy/build an autocross car in a couple years. If my living situation allows, I'll maintain two cars as I have most of my adult life.
SC300/SC400 - use as designed. Do the obvious upgrades. Can't autocross, but I can drift! I may still go ahead and lighten the SC, though I know I will not achieve autocross performance. "Poor Man's Supra" may just happen after all.
IS300
2000-2005 Celica GT-S - FWD but it places well in autocross
Real AE86: (VIN JT2AE88..) 85-87 Corolla GT-S - I'm a sucker for history [4A-GE 5-SPD RWD LSD]
240SX - RWD, adequate suspension with good upgrade path, lame power from KA24DE - but can thrash on it all day long and if I blow an engine - replacements come cheap
Japanese FWD, potential models: Toyota Grocery, Honda Rice, Nissan OilLeak - just a low price cash car to thrash on; abuse and throw away. Get a real car in a couple years.
Something pre-smog that is already restored, even if not done well or finished: Datsun, BMW, Volvo, ?, 1970-75 Toyota Celica.
350Z, M3 - compromise solutions that can be bought now, used for autocross, and kept long term
Though only mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I may take a 240Z/510/Celica, especially with a fiberglass kit (especially one that has since worn out or was never completed), and have fabrication done to mount late model front and rear subframes from a late model sportscar, and drivetrain from either a sportscar or a luxury car. There's a shop in my area that specializes in this type of work, but I'd need to move to where I have shop-space to complete the project, and no doubt: to keep reworking stuff. There are two main advantages to this plan:
* The resulting car would be smaller and lighter than a luxurious sports car, and far lighter than a donor luxury car of a drivetrain. "Poor Man's LFA"
* I'd avoid California SMOG laws, could even use JDM exclusive models.
From what I learned on this thread, I might do better with a small die-cast aluminum engine with an upgraded modern no-lag turbo system than an aluminum V8, with the matching (small, light, low unsprung weight) subframes. The shop likes to retrofit Miata subframes, because they only have a few bolts so are easy for them to fabricate. They build race-cars, but will do hobby cars as long as they are pre-smog.
12-28-12, 11:30 PM
#33
2poor2buy,
I'm glad I could help. I wish I had more upbeat opinions on the subject but having gone through a similar buying/searching experience, it really is that steep when you want one of the better cars from the factory.
I won't go into the alternative cars you mentioned as you've listed many good ones. Each has their strengths and weaknesses. Most of those models, like the SC, don't have a legal and common engine swap for more power, however.
As for a 1973 or older car, you can indeed avoid smog inspection with one because it's not required BUT technically you still need whatever smog equipment originally came on the vehicle, even if that is simply EGR and PCV. Technically if you swap to, say, an LS1 you need to get it BAR'd as whatever the engine came from (eg: 1972 240Z gets smogged as a 1998 Camaro SS 6-speed) but you won't be dealing with the need to certify it unless you get flagged for some reason. Basically, even the "smog exempt" cars aren't really off the hook. It's just easier to avoid trouble because they require no testing. Just be careful how you drive or where you drive with a non-US engine. Classics tend to be left alone but there is always the occasional horror story.
As I've found, the only three exceptions to the "cheap but powerful and can handle and is legal" formula for less than high teens prices are the pony cars I mentioned, plus the 1997-2002 Camaro LS1/T56 manual cars. Yes, the older Camaro. Laugh all you like and I know you said you aren't interested in anything but foreign models but as crude as they are they do handle with a little suspension work. Not the best by far but they aren't given as much credit as they should be. They also respond well to CARB legal modifications that actually gain in horsepower. I know that isn't your cup of tea but it's just to make a point.
I'd mention Fox body Mustangs, which I think are great cars but the amount of suspension work to bring them up to speed in the handling department can be as much as $8k-$10k.
I stick by my recommendation to wait for now if you're really wanting the best but if you still want rear drive and a manual transmission regardless of horsepower there are many cars to choose from, including the SC. You'll find that this is a very difficult process until you go out and try a small handful of specific cars.
As for the All-Trac, I'm not surprised it's greatly eclipsed by almost anything from Subaru or the Evo but as a piece of history it's still a very special car. Probably the way the understeer is diminished is by getting into very careful clutch-LSD selection with custom settings front and rear among other things.
I'm glad I could help. I wish I had more upbeat opinions on the subject but having gone through a similar buying/searching experience, it really is that steep when you want one of the better cars from the factory.
I won't go into the alternative cars you mentioned as you've listed many good ones. Each has their strengths and weaknesses. Most of those models, like the SC, don't have a legal and common engine swap for more power, however.
As for a 1973 or older car, you can indeed avoid smog inspection with one because it's not required BUT technically you still need whatever smog equipment originally came on the vehicle, even if that is simply EGR and PCV. Technically if you swap to, say, an LS1 you need to get it BAR'd as whatever the engine came from (eg: 1972 240Z gets smogged as a 1998 Camaro SS 6-speed) but you won't be dealing with the need to certify it unless you get flagged for some reason. Basically, even the "smog exempt" cars aren't really off the hook. It's just easier to avoid trouble because they require no testing. Just be careful how you drive or where you drive with a non-US engine. Classics tend to be left alone but there is always the occasional horror story.
As I've found, the only three exceptions to the "cheap but powerful and can handle and is legal" formula for less than high teens prices are the pony cars I mentioned, plus the 1997-2002 Camaro LS1/T56 manual cars. Yes, the older Camaro. Laugh all you like and I know you said you aren't interested in anything but foreign models but as crude as they are they do handle with a little suspension work. Not the best by far but they aren't given as much credit as they should be. They also respond well to CARB legal modifications that actually gain in horsepower. I know that isn't your cup of tea but it's just to make a point.
I'd mention Fox body Mustangs, which I think are great cars but the amount of suspension work to bring them up to speed in the handling department can be as much as $8k-$10k.
I stick by my recommendation to wait for now if you're really wanting the best but if you still want rear drive and a manual transmission regardless of horsepower there are many cars to choose from, including the SC. You'll find that this is a very difficult process until you go out and try a small handful of specific cars.
As for the All-Trac, I'm not surprised it's greatly eclipsed by almost anything from Subaru or the Evo but as a piece of history it's still a very special car. Probably the way the understeer is diminished is by getting into very careful clutch-LSD selection with custom settings front and rear among other things.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 12-28-12 at 11:36 PM.
12-30-12, 11:53 AM
#34
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Can't have it all!
I appreciate the help. it looks like I cannot get a suitable car in California in my price range. I found several for sale right now outside California.
My parameters are (or rather, were):
Japanese, RWD (and AWD now), appropriate to autocross (quick at slow speeds, nimble), fits my giant dog (otherwise a 2-seater), total budget of $12K when ready to autocross.
I have to remove a parameter. Removing the first gets me some options (LS1/T56 Camaro).
What about removing the second paramenter, so FWD?
Toyota Celica T230 (gen 7) US model years: 2000-2005.
GT-S trim with the 2ZZ-GE engine and 6-spd transmission.
I just found one local, 2004, mint, stock, 120k miles, one owner (for sale by that owner), $7500.
(dealers are selling that configuration for around $12k)
Gladly that year they kept the fuel cutoff at 8500rpm's, as all the power is at high RPM's.
That model does well in autocross. Apparently the model doesn't plow as it has a very light Yamaha improved engine.
That keeps me in the Toyota family, newer light car so aftermarket support and replacement parts should be cheap, they did some weight reducing measures for that generation.
Should I buy that model (2000-2005 Celica GT-S, 2ZZ-GE, 6-speed) for my purposes until I can buy a newer autocross car?
Any other autocross worthy cars to consider (including FWD) at the $7500 price point?
My parameters are (or rather, were):
Japanese, RWD (and AWD now), appropriate to autocross (quick at slow speeds, nimble), fits my giant dog (otherwise a 2-seater), total budget of $12K when ready to autocross.
I have to remove a parameter. Removing the first gets me some options (LS1/T56 Camaro).
What about removing the second paramenter, so FWD?
Toyota Celica T230 (gen 7) US model years: 2000-2005.
GT-S trim with the 2ZZ-GE engine and 6-spd transmission.
I just found one local, 2004, mint, stock, 120k miles, one owner (for sale by that owner), $7500.
(dealers are selling that configuration for around $12k)
Gladly that year they kept the fuel cutoff at 8500rpm's, as all the power is at high RPM's.
That model does well in autocross. Apparently the model doesn't plow as it has a very light Yamaha improved engine.
That keeps me in the Toyota family, newer light car so aftermarket support and replacement parts should be cheap, they did some weight reducing measures for that generation.
Should I buy that model (2000-2005 Celica GT-S, 2ZZ-GE, 6-speed) for my purposes until I can buy a newer autocross car?
Any other autocross worthy cars to consider (including FWD) at the $7500 price point?
12-30-12, 12:43 PM
#35
Okay, first off, based on our conversations both in this thread an on PM, I agree that it's a harsh realization that you can't have the best choices for less than $15k+ or so in Cali but I wouldn't completely kill any impetus you have to own a fun car just because the state has made it unreasonably difficult to do so for cheap.
Knowing all that you know now, I still bought a car that fit all my criteria except horsepower when I could have had a faster car that was FWD. I owned a FWD sporty Honda for ten years before I got my current one and I just couldn't see the point in getting another, speed or no speed. For a basic commuter appliance? Sure.
Or I also could have bought a 97-02 Camaro SS 6-speed, but I liked the SC more. Preference and how a car feels means a lot in addition to the performance numbers and chassis balance. Just as an example, and having driven one, I think the FR-S is a good example of how a car can have shortcomings and lack of power but still be superbly balanced and fun to drive. It's not the only such car to exemplify this.
There are good FWD cars and it's true that the right lightweight chassis with the right engine and suspension (and LSD) can do wonders and be fast but I just don't often see the point. FWD packaging isn't the most ideal for a performance car. Great on snow, however, but so is AWD.
The 2000-2005 Celica GT-S is a good car but to make the best use of the 2ZZ-GE engine, I'd look into buying a 1999-2005 MR2 Spyder 5-speed manual (NOT the 5-speed SMT transmission) model and swapping in a Celica GT-S, Corolla XRS or Matrix XRS 1.8L 2ZZ-GE and 6-speed manual transmission. Hardtops are available for those cars too. Stock they aren't very quick at 138hp but supposedly they could hit 6.8sec 0-60 before any engine modification. This would give you almost zero cargo room and only two seats but it would be a good performance car, mid-engine RWD, and emissions legal. Look around in the classifieds-- I've seen a few for sale that already have that swap. Hopefully those cars has a USDM 2ZZ-GE. I considered this myself against a 350Z but at the end of the day I wanted something that was a 2+2.
I have to say that you have done an impressive amount of research to find the car you ultimately want within your budget. This is exactly what I did a couple of years ago and I have to give you props for that. I tend to think that in greater Europe (or at least the UK) and Japan this wouldn't be such a hard process simply because there are more cars available that fit the bill... maybe or maybe not within a small used budget.
And as far as the role of the Cali ARB in all this making it extremely difficult to legally swap in a better and more powerful engine to most affordable/attainable used performance car chassis... while their reasoning and modus operandi are actually opposed to the values of car enthusiasts, I don't blame them so much for this problem of not many performance cars meeting specific criteria.
I blame the manufacturers.
Knowing all that you know now, I still bought a car that fit all my criteria except horsepower when I could have had a faster car that was FWD. I owned a FWD sporty Honda for ten years before I got my current one and I just couldn't see the point in getting another, speed or no speed. For a basic commuter appliance? Sure.
Or I also could have bought a 97-02 Camaro SS 6-speed, but I liked the SC more. Preference and how a car feels means a lot in addition to the performance numbers and chassis balance. Just as an example, and having driven one, I think the FR-S is a good example of how a car can have shortcomings and lack of power but still be superbly balanced and fun to drive. It's not the only such car to exemplify this.
There are good FWD cars and it's true that the right lightweight chassis with the right engine and suspension (and LSD) can do wonders and be fast but I just don't often see the point. FWD packaging isn't the most ideal for a performance car. Great on snow, however, but so is AWD.
The 2000-2005 Celica GT-S is a good car but to make the best use of the 2ZZ-GE engine, I'd look into buying a 1999-2005 MR2 Spyder 5-speed manual (NOT the 5-speed SMT transmission) model and swapping in a Celica GT-S, Corolla XRS or Matrix XRS 1.8L 2ZZ-GE and 6-speed manual transmission. Hardtops are available for those cars too. Stock they aren't very quick at 138hp but supposedly they could hit 6.8sec 0-60 before any engine modification. This would give you almost zero cargo room and only two seats but it would be a good performance car, mid-engine RWD, and emissions legal. Look around in the classifieds-- I've seen a few for sale that already have that swap. Hopefully those cars has a USDM 2ZZ-GE. I considered this myself against a 350Z but at the end of the day I wanted something that was a 2+2.
I have to say that you have done an impressive amount of research to find the car you ultimately want within your budget. This is exactly what I did a couple of years ago and I have to give you props for that. I tend to think that in greater Europe (or at least the UK) and Japan this wouldn't be such a hard process simply because there are more cars available that fit the bill... maybe or maybe not within a small used budget.
And as far as the role of the Cali ARB in all this making it extremely difficult to legally swap in a better and more powerful engine to most affordable/attainable used performance car chassis... while their reasoning and modus operandi are actually opposed to the values of car enthusiasts, I don't blame them so much for this problem of not many performance cars meeting specific criteria.
I blame the manufacturers.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 12-30-12 at 09:08 PM. Reason: typo
12-30-12, 02:50 PM
#36
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Another owner looking into a SC here.
I am an MKII MR2 Owner here, Turbo with T-tops, These cars are wonderful so responsive and agile, I love the feeling of driving without power steering, the engine being in the back means its much easier to drive like that, it is as people say, driving a giant go-kart, and exactly what you are looking for, if yo uare removing all the seats just to put one seat then what does it matter? the SW20 MR2 seats two so much more comfortably than any other two seat japanese sports car, MX5, FD RX7.. I feel so much more comfortable in my MR2 and I am 6'3", so I think your big dog can fit, specially with taking out the passenger seat
and for lower speed auto-xing then I would suggest swapping in a BEAMS 3SGE 210HP.
and how could you possibly call the SW20 bloated? my T-top Turbo weighs 2600lbs...
I am an MKII MR2 Owner here, Turbo with T-tops, These cars are wonderful so responsive and agile, I love the feeling of driving without power steering, the engine being in the back means its much easier to drive like that, it is as people say, driving a giant go-kart, and exactly what you are looking for, if yo uare removing all the seats just to put one seat then what does it matter? the SW20 MR2 seats two so much more comfortably than any other two seat japanese sports car, MX5, FD RX7.. I feel so much more comfortable in my MR2 and I am 6'3", so I think your big dog can fit, specially with taking out the passenger seat
and for lower speed auto-xing then I would suggest swapping in a BEAMS 3SGE 210HP.
and how could you possibly call the SW20 bloated? my T-top Turbo weighs 2600lbs...
12-31-12, 01:31 AM
#37
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SW20 MR2 - It is a fine car, at an appropriate weight. My mention of bloat was in context of design: it should weigh 20% less due to it's basis on the Lotus X10, then MR2 Mk1. I can't buy a 2-seater due to my giant dog, he's 6 1/2 feet long, 33" at the shoulders, and getting older, I'd rather have a bit more space even without him. He takes more space than the removed passenger seat of a car - he also needs the floor space behind the seat. Can he squeeze into an MR2? Maybe I'd try a test fit, but who's going to be willing to let me remove a seat to try?
I enjoyed test-driving the 2004 Celica GT-S 6-speed today; gladly I knew enough to recognize a failing syncro on second gear, and the low clutch pedal which is either in need of adjustment, or ready to fail. Seems the car had other possible mechanical failures that would come up before long. The engine was a slug at 3000rpm's, so I'd have to drive that 2ZZ-GE at 5-8K for power. Not exactly how I want to drive every day.
I'd prefer an engine with torque or a modern turbo. So for now I'm likely back to RWD even without as much low speed performance. That means back to (drum-roll please) Lexus SC. 240SX is another option for my short term selection.
I enjoyed test-driving the 2004 Celica GT-S 6-speed today; gladly I knew enough to recognize a failing syncro on second gear, and the low clutch pedal which is either in need of adjustment, or ready to fail. Seems the car had other possible mechanical failures that would come up before long. The engine was a slug at 3000rpm's, so I'd have to drive that 2ZZ-GE at 5-8K for power. Not exactly how I want to drive every day.
I'd prefer an engine with torque or a modern turbo. So for now I'm likely back to RWD even without as much low speed performance. That means back to (drum-roll please) Lexus SC. 240SX is another option for my short term selection.
12-31-12, 11:04 AM
#38
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Wanted: SC300/400 $5K cash, smog legal in California. My budget allows $200 in repairs/upgrades per month,; basically $1K for something every five months.
Manual transmission preferred, updates already completed would be a bonus, quality of interior & paint not important relative to mechanic function
Will consider other models (240SX, M3?, or just something to get around in)
Will wait at least two years to buy an autocross car as suggested by KahnBB6 at one point, many thanks to suggestions on this thread:
2004+ Turbo: Subaru 2.5 Turbo, Mitsubishi Evo (thanks xspsi6), IS300 or similar if turbo kit gets CARB approval.
If you find something for sale, or are selling a car worth my while, write to my throw away email address: nobody2worry4@yahoo.com (an address which I'll discard when it fills with spam)
Manual transmission preferred, updates already completed would be a bonus, quality of interior & paint not important relative to mechanic function
Will consider other models (240SX, M3?, or just something to get around in)
Will wait at least two years to buy an autocross car as suggested by KahnBB6 at one point, many thanks to suggestions on this thread:
2004+ Turbo: Subaru 2.5 Turbo, Mitsubishi Evo (thanks xspsi6), IS300 or similar if turbo kit gets CARB approval.
If you find something for sale, or are selling a car worth my while, write to my throw away email address: nobody2worry4@yahoo.com (an address which I'll discard when it fills with spam)
Last edited by 2Poor2Buy; 12-31-12 at 11:29 AM. Reason: expounded on SC wanted
12-31-12, 12:23 PM
#39
2poor2buy,
You may want to consider cars that you can swap an LS1 into with existing kits. You just need to be aware of using carb legal or OEM headers and getting that past a BAR tech:
240SX (all years), 86-92 RX7, 93-95 RX7, SC300/400 (kits available but this is very, very new). And even Fox Mustangs but I don't recommend due to the suspension work needed.
You may want to consider cars that you can swap an LS1 into with existing kits. You just need to be aware of using carb legal or OEM headers and getting that past a BAR tech:
240SX (all years), 86-92 RX7, 93-95 RX7, SC300/400 (kits available but this is very, very new). And even Fox Mustangs but I don't recommend due to the suspension work needed.
12-31-12, 03:09 PM
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E36 M3 is my vote.
its basically Japanese in the use of the USA spec engine (stroker slight tuned 328/528 engine) . If the car is being gutted then the german scare is not there anymore!
SC300 is great but if its all done up still cant keep up with a stock e36 m3 in the mountains. Even with my sc300 on Tarmac Rally tires and MK4TT everything!
You can also footwork/suspension setup an IS300 to the max of reasonable budget but it still wont handle or put down the lap times of the e36 M3. Many local Friends love them for drifting but they are all running turbo engine swaps with GT35r's
for mountain work the M3 will have an enormous advantage on sheer weight and chassis setting. Then you can strip it!
a Sc300 is too weak in any form NA to move the body weight. SC400 hardtop + 5 speed manual transmission with coil overs and gutted everything may be able to hit the budget/performance goals without an engine swap.
For Mountain use / Track use run the stock engine, swapping TT engines or going NA+T is great for making freeway monsters with.
Gearing up a BMW and setting up the factory clutch type BMW LSD is Much easier/cheaper than buying a TRD LSD unit and installing into your Sc300/400. Its great but so expensive and time consuming to do.
its basically Japanese in the use of the USA spec engine (stroker slight tuned 328/528 engine) . If the car is being gutted then the german scare is not there anymore!
SC300 is great but if its all done up still cant keep up with a stock e36 m3 in the mountains. Even with my sc300 on Tarmac Rally tires and MK4TT everything!
You can also footwork/suspension setup an IS300 to the max of reasonable budget but it still wont handle or put down the lap times of the e36 M3. Many local Friends love them for drifting but they are all running turbo engine swaps with GT35r's
for mountain work the M3 will have an enormous advantage on sheer weight and chassis setting. Then you can strip it!
a Sc300 is too weak in any form NA to move the body weight. SC400 hardtop + 5 speed manual transmission with coil overs and gutted everything may be able to hit the budget/performance goals without an engine swap.
For Mountain use / Track use run the stock engine, swapping TT engines or going NA+T is great for making freeway monsters with.
Gearing up a BMW and setting up the factory clutch type BMW LSD is Much easier/cheaper than buying a TRD LSD unit and installing into your Sc300/400. Its great but so expensive and time consuming to do.
12-31-12, 03:23 PM
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Three pages and only one mention of the rx7. A first gen can be had for a for $100-$3k ($3k for a mint cherry deal), second gens for about twice that, then the third gen for $5-30k (depending on what's done or what it is).
They are crazy fast, have huge swap potential and they are pretty much the lightest cars.
I just sold my 78 which weighed in at 2114lbs with a LS swap and te 8.8 rear
They are crazy fast, have huge swap potential and they are pretty much the lightest cars.
I just sold my 78 which weighed in at 2114lbs with a LS swap and te 8.8 rear
12-31-12, 07:20 PM
#42
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Three great responses, thanks!
KahnBB6: That is an awesome idea! I could get a worthy body now, maintain/update the suspension and such, then in a couple years do the swap. However, in researching the price I found this:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversion...l****-est.html
So in the 240SX, doing most of the work myself it will cost $7K-$10k, but I don't have a shop! Even if I did, that still costs more than buying a stock Evo, Subi 2.5 Turbo, or other modern design designed directly for autocross. I don't need high speed performance - only below 80MPH.
Another idea is to follow CA smog laws on doing a hybrid, any motor into any body. They just require all of the donor motor's smog and electrical system, plus any restrictions on the donor body. Provided the motor is at least as new as the body, that's not a problem. So an older Lexus SC300/400 could accept a later 2JZ-GTE & 6 speed, provided the motor's smog & wiring are used. The hurdles are when the body doesn't fit the stock (or approved aftermarket) headers and cats.
There's a kit (may be just as expensive as LS1 swap) to put a late model Nissan motor into a 240SX, which would give a great power to weight ratio, perfect weight bias can be achieved, and it would be very drivable. Likewise a Supra MkII body, with a late model Toyota aluminum V8.
That said,I'd be more inclined to do as originally mentioned: using a pre-smog body and having the nearby racing fabricator build a frame that holds the appropriate subframes of the donor car, and flare the fenders as far as needed. This is what he specializes in doing. He has even taken two bodies (some small 60's US car, I believe) and assembled them as one wider body, though I'd me more inclined to flare the fenders out - even a foot if required. There's a custom fabricator of Z body parts that could do that part.
But all this talk of high dollar projects, I'm afraid I'm better off getting something affordable (cash: $5K) that is fun now, using it without much modification, and selling and replacing it in a few years with a 2005+ stock car that does well in autocross, which I'll finance.
Gangnam-style: (was that the name?) E36 BMW M3 is a great choice. Depends on if I can get my hands on one in budget.
Dream36: RX7 is a fine platform, especially for it's lightweight Wankel. But first gen didn't do so well on corners, at least stock: In 1987 or 1988, I drove up to a guy changing the oil in his 1986+ Supercharged MR2 in my hopped up 1975 Celica and started talking shop while he worked on it. He could tell I was an enthusiast. To my shock, when he finished he tossed me his keys and we went out for a spin. A windy undeveloped road just happened to be newly paved by coincidence. As all of you probably know, when driving really fast out in the boonies, drive one direction to check for cops - I mean road hazards, and then step on it on the way back. As I made my U-turn, an RX-7 (not brand new) happened to be coming - who thought I wanted him to play (I was playing with the MR-2, but he was welcome to try to keep up). Not knowing the MR-2 yet, and it not belonging to me and being brand new, I took the first turn at ~10MPH over posted, next at ~20MPH over, next at ~30MPH over, and so forth. I didn't accelerate at all on the straights, because I was playing with the turns. The RX-7 would try to catch up on each straightaway, and get way behind on each curve. Yet I wasn't even trying very hard, had never driven an MR-2 before; and I smoked the RX-7. If buying a small 2-seater, I'd go with MR-2. I'm extremely fond of the design. Now that I drove one, the last generation Celica GT-S is out of the running; too many flaws to bother to list.
KahnBB6: That is an awesome idea! I could get a worthy body now, maintain/update the suspension and such, then in a couple years do the swap. However, in researching the price I found this:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversion...l****-est.html
So in the 240SX, doing most of the work myself it will cost $7K-$10k, but I don't have a shop! Even if I did, that still costs more than buying a stock Evo, Subi 2.5 Turbo, or other modern design designed directly for autocross. I don't need high speed performance - only below 80MPH.
Another idea is to follow CA smog laws on doing a hybrid, any motor into any body. They just require all of the donor motor's smog and electrical system, plus any restrictions on the donor body. Provided the motor is at least as new as the body, that's not a problem. So an older Lexus SC300/400 could accept a later 2JZ-GTE & 6 speed, provided the motor's smog & wiring are used. The hurdles are when the body doesn't fit the stock (or approved aftermarket) headers and cats.
There's a kit (may be just as expensive as LS1 swap) to put a late model Nissan motor into a 240SX, which would give a great power to weight ratio, perfect weight bias can be achieved, and it would be very drivable. Likewise a Supra MkII body, with a late model Toyota aluminum V8.
That said,I'd be more inclined to do as originally mentioned: using a pre-smog body and having the nearby racing fabricator build a frame that holds the appropriate subframes of the donor car, and flare the fenders as far as needed. This is what he specializes in doing. He has even taken two bodies (some small 60's US car, I believe) and assembled them as one wider body, though I'd me more inclined to flare the fenders out - even a foot if required. There's a custom fabricator of Z body parts that could do that part.
But all this talk of high dollar projects, I'm afraid I'm better off getting something affordable (cash: $5K) that is fun now, using it without much modification, and selling and replacing it in a few years with a 2005+ stock car that does well in autocross, which I'll finance.
Gangnam-style: (was that the name?) E36 BMW M3 is a great choice. Depends on if I can get my hands on one in budget.
Dream36: RX7 is a fine platform, especially for it's lightweight Wankel. But first gen didn't do so well on corners, at least stock: In 1987 or 1988, I drove up to a guy changing the oil in his 1986+ Supercharged MR2 in my hopped up 1975 Celica and started talking shop while he worked on it. He could tell I was an enthusiast. To my shock, when he finished he tossed me his keys and we went out for a spin. A windy undeveloped road just happened to be newly paved by coincidence. As all of you probably know, when driving really fast out in the boonies, drive one direction to check for cops - I mean road hazards, and then step on it on the way back. As I made my U-turn, an RX-7 (not brand new) happened to be coming - who thought I wanted him to play (I was playing with the MR-2, but he was welcome to try to keep up). Not knowing the MR-2 yet, and it not belonging to me and being brand new, I took the first turn at ~10MPH over posted, next at ~20MPH over, next at ~30MPH over, and so forth. I didn't accelerate at all on the straights, because I was playing with the turns. The RX-7 would try to catch up on each straightaway, and get way behind on each curve. Yet I wasn't even trying very hard, had never driven an MR-2 before; and I smoked the RX-7. If buying a small 2-seater, I'd go with MR-2. I'm extremely fond of the design. Now that I drove one, the last generation Celica GT-S is out of the running; too many flaws to bother to list.
Last edited by 2Poor2Buy; 12-31-12 at 07:32 PM. Reason: accurate year of event
01-01-13, 10:13 AM
#43
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Three great responses, thanks!
KahnBB6: That is an awesome idea! I could get a worthy body now, maintain/update the suspension and such, then in a couple years do the swap. However, in researching the price I found this:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversion...l****-est.html
So in the 240SX, doing most of the work myself it will cost $7K-$10k, but I don't have a shop! Even if I did, that still costs more than buying a stock Evo, Subi 2.5 Turbo, or other modern design designed directly for autocross. I don't need high speed performance - only below 80MPH.
Another idea is to follow CA smog laws on doing a hybrid, any motor into any body. They just require all of the donor motor's smog and electrical system, plus any restrictions on the donor body. Provided the motor is at least as new as the body, that's not a problem. So an older Lexus SC300/400 could accept a later 2JZ-GTE & 6 speed, provided the motor's smog & wiring are used. The hurdles are when the body doesn't fit the stock (or approved aftermarket) headers and cats.
There's a kit (may be just as expensive as LS1 swap) to put a late model Nissan motor into a 240SX, which would give a great power to weight ratio, perfect weight bias can be achieved, and it would be very drivable. Likewise a Supra MkII body, with a late model Toyota aluminum V8.
That said,I'd be more inclined to do as originally mentioned: using a pre-smog body and having the nearby racing fabricator build a frame that holds the appropriate subframes of the donor car, and flare the fenders as far as needed. This is what he specializes in doing. He has even taken two bodies (some small 60's US car, I believe) and assembled them as one wider body, though I'd me more inclined to flare the fenders out - even a foot if required. There's a custom fabricator of Z body parts that could do that part.
But all this talk of high dollar projects, I'm afraid I'm better off getting something affordable (cash: $5K) that is fun now, using it without much modification, and selling and replacing it in a few years with a 2005+ stock car that does well in autocross, which I'll finance.
Gangnam-style: (was that the name?) E36 BMW M3 is a great choice. Depends on if I can get my hands on one in budget.
Dream36: RX7 is a fine platform, especially for it's lightweight Wankel. But first gen didn't do so well on corners, at least stock: In 1987 or 1988, I drove up to a guy changing the oil in his 1986+ Supercharged MR2 in my hopped up 1975 Celica and started talking shop while he worked on it. He could tell I was an enthusiast. To my shock, when he finished he tossed me his keys and we went out for a spin. A windy undeveloped road just happened to be newly paved by coincidence. As all of you probably know, when driving really fast out in the boonies, drive one direction to check for cops - I mean road hazards, and then step on it on the way back. As I made my U-turn, an RX-7 (not brand new) happened to be coming - who thought I wanted him to play (I was playing with the MR-2, but he was welcome to try to keep up). Not knowing the MR-2 yet, and it not belonging to me and being brand new, I took the first turn at ~10MPH over posted, next at ~20MPH over, next at ~30MPH over, and so forth. I didn't accelerate at all on the straights, because I was playing with the turns. The RX-7 would try to catch up on each straightaway, and get way behind on each curve. Yet I wasn't even trying very hard, had never driven an MR-2 before; and I smoked the RX-7. If buying a small 2-seater, I'd go with MR-2. I'm extremely fond of the design. Now that I drove one, the last generation Celica GT-S is out of the running; too many flaws to bother to list.
KahnBB6: That is an awesome idea! I could get a worthy body now, maintain/update the suspension and such, then in a couple years do the swap. However, in researching the price I found this:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversion...l****-est.html
So in the 240SX, doing most of the work myself it will cost $7K-$10k, but I don't have a shop! Even if I did, that still costs more than buying a stock Evo, Subi 2.5 Turbo, or other modern design designed directly for autocross. I don't need high speed performance - only below 80MPH.
Another idea is to follow CA smog laws on doing a hybrid, any motor into any body. They just require all of the donor motor's smog and electrical system, plus any restrictions on the donor body. Provided the motor is at least as new as the body, that's not a problem. So an older Lexus SC300/400 could accept a later 2JZ-GTE & 6 speed, provided the motor's smog & wiring are used. The hurdles are when the body doesn't fit the stock (or approved aftermarket) headers and cats.
There's a kit (may be just as expensive as LS1 swap) to put a late model Nissan motor into a 240SX, which would give a great power to weight ratio, perfect weight bias can be achieved, and it would be very drivable. Likewise a Supra MkII body, with a late model Toyota aluminum V8.
That said,I'd be more inclined to do as originally mentioned: using a pre-smog body and having the nearby racing fabricator build a frame that holds the appropriate subframes of the donor car, and flare the fenders as far as needed. This is what he specializes in doing. He has even taken two bodies (some small 60's US car, I believe) and assembled them as one wider body, though I'd me more inclined to flare the fenders out - even a foot if required. There's a custom fabricator of Z body parts that could do that part.
But all this talk of high dollar projects, I'm afraid I'm better off getting something affordable (cash: $5K) that is fun now, using it without much modification, and selling and replacing it in a few years with a 2005+ stock car that does well in autocross, which I'll finance.
Gangnam-style: (was that the name?) E36 BMW M3 is a great choice. Depends on if I can get my hands on one in budget.
Dream36: RX7 is a fine platform, especially for it's lightweight Wankel. But first gen didn't do so well on corners, at least stock: In 1987 or 1988, I drove up to a guy changing the oil in his 1986+ Supercharged MR2 in my hopped up 1975 Celica and started talking shop while he worked on it. He could tell I was an enthusiast. To my shock, when he finished he tossed me his keys and we went out for a spin. A windy undeveloped road just happened to be newly paved by coincidence. As all of you probably know, when driving really fast out in the boonies, drive one direction to check for cops - I mean road hazards, and then step on it on the way back. As I made my U-turn, an RX-7 (not brand new) happened to be coming - who thought I wanted him to play (I was playing with the MR-2, but he was welcome to try to keep up). Not knowing the MR-2 yet, and it not belonging to me and being brand new, I took the first turn at ~10MPH over posted, next at ~20MPH over, next at ~30MPH over, and so forth. I didn't accelerate at all on the straights, because I was playing with the turns. The RX-7 would try to catch up on each straightaway, and get way behind on each curve. Yet I wasn't even trying very hard, had never driven an MR-2 before; and I smoked the RX-7. If buying a small 2-seater, I'd go with MR-2. I'm extremely fond of the design. Now that I drove one, the last generation Celica GT-S is out of the running; too many flaws to bother to list.
SC300 original 5 speed car + full 2jz-GTE BPU done factory style here in california
I built it with full Toyota San Francisco dealer support and parts. Total Smog 100% ok and Cali bar passable; wired with full OBD 1 function and dealer service ok. MK4 supra everything; brakes suspension wheels seats, engine, TRD LSD+ 3.91 final drive, MK4 supra TT airbox/SMIC/twin turbos.
cost? 12K+ in parts and 6+ months of time + 5K for the original car.
One can buy a E36 M3 Manual SEDAN 5 speed and put a giant dog in the rear.
then go mobbing on mountain roads/race track and destroy the pace/time of the built up Sc300 twin turbo bpu mk4 supra everything.
Cost for E36 M3 ~6k- Sometimes you can find them in 4K range needing some work or with bad interior.
In 2009 My stock engine sedan with full AC and leather inside did 1:50 @ laguna seca with DOT Dunlop Super Sport "street" tires and a passenger timing. Original un-mapped ecu @ stock 240hp. Doubt my former sc300 with twin turbo power could even get close - even on dunlop D01J Tarmac Rally tires.
Cost of modding for lap time = much less than SC300. Almost nothing is needed to change from original.
BMW Motorsports setup is amazing; for the price of the TRD Sc300 LSD unit and donor 3.91 pumpkin/seals/bearings for install ($1500) I could have dropped 5 seconds per Lap time at laguna Seca on a stock e36M.
Last edited by wanganstyl; 01-01-13 at 10:37 AM.
01-01-13, 10:46 AM
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One can buy a E36 M3 Manual SEDAN 5 speed and put a giant dog in the rear.
then go mobbing on mountain roads/race track and destroy the pace/time of the built up Sc300 twin turbo bpu mk4 supra everything.
Cost for E36 M3 ~6k- Sometimes you can find them in 4K range needing some work or with bad interior.
Cost of modding for lap time = much less than SC300. Almost nothing is needed to change from original.
BMW Motorsports setup is amazing; for the price of the TRD Sc300 LSD unit and donor 3.91 pumpkin/seals/bearings for install ($1500) I could have dropped 5 seconds per Lap time at laguna Seca on a stock e36M.
then go mobbing on mountain roads/race track and destroy the pace/time of the built up Sc300 twin turbo bpu mk4 supra everything.
Cost for E36 M3 ~6k- Sometimes you can find them in 4K range needing some work or with bad interior.
Cost of modding for lap time = much less than SC300. Almost nothing is needed to change from original.
BMW Motorsports setup is amazing; for the price of the TRD Sc300 LSD unit and donor 3.91 pumpkin/seals/bearings for install ($1500) I could have dropped 5 seconds per Lap time at laguna Seca on a stock e36M.
Lexus SC, BMW M3, Nissan 240SX up to $5K. For these (and the mileage and setup matter a lot - a 240SX would only appeal if cheap or heavily modded) I'm willing to travel, but they must pass (or be sure to pass) CA smog inspection. Please only suggest individual cars by PM or the throw away email address: nobody2worry4@yahoo.com.
Unfortunately, I'll also set up a search for 'almost any car/truck' in the Sacramento area under $3K, and may end up with a grocery-getter for the near-term, so I can afford to buy the autocross car in a couple years.
Last edited by 2Poor2Buy; 01-01-13 at 10:51 AM. Reason: typo, individual cars
01-01-13, 10:54 AM
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BMW M3 is absolutely on my list! Thank you for the detail. I'm not finding any $6K M3's nearby, and none under $5K, but I'll keep looking. In fact, I'll set up some automatic searches today now that I know what I want:
Lexus SC, BMW M3, Nissan 240SX up to $5K. For these (and the mileage and setup matter a lot - a 240SX would only appeal is cheap or heavily modded) I'm willing to travel, but they must pass (or be sure to pass) CA smog inspection.
Unfortunately, I'll also set up a search for 'almost any car/truck' in the Sacramento area under $3K, and may end up with a grocery-getter for the near-term, so I can afford to buy the autocross car in a couple years.
Lexus SC, BMW M3, Nissan 240SX up to $5K. For these (and the mileage and setup matter a lot - a 240SX would only appeal is cheap or heavily modded) I'm willing to travel, but they must pass (or be sure to pass) CA smog inspection.
Unfortunately, I'll also set up a search for 'almost any car/truck' in the Sacramento area under $3K, and may end up with a grocery-getter for the near-term, so I can afford to buy the autocross car in a couple years.
The famous 2jz we all love is a product of GERMANY
Johann A. Krause Maschinenfabrik GmbHMany bmw's in the 4k range in sac.
You could also consider E36 325/ 328i or e46 325/328i if //M performance is not the #1 target- even the 325/328 is tuned for autobahn use and handling "feel" compared to a Sc300 is BMW all the way.
turbo+ I6 = happy. One must realize that the amazing engineering of the 2jz engine is................................GERMAN.
BMW I6 + turbo = basically same thing; but chassis handles better.
The Sc300 is so old nowadays that things like door handles and window regulators and Guibo's are failing - These are all naggling issues that add up in costs
if the goal is good handling RWD car with balance and auto-x-ability there are very few cars (in stock format) that can change direction like a BMW.
if the goal is highway attack monster .... then SC300+roll cage with a pair of twins is almost un-beatable - the LONG wheelbase and big body of sc300 is GREAT for highway assault!