Closing deal on a 98 MK4 TT
04-02-16, 04:19 PM
#61
Looks are subjective. I can name 10 people that think Supras are very ugly. Also 10 people that think SC's are very ugly. And another ten that think E36 M3's are ugly and dated....
Everybody has a preference. Some people like the attention, some people like a boxy old school look. And some people like a fatass look that you get with the Supra.
Driving wise, I prefer an SC. My friend's MKIV single turbo felt too cramped and cheap inside. I am just partial to Lexus, we have 7 cars in the family, 5 of which are Lexus. I lean toward the more refined, smoother feel of Lexus as a personal preference. My 2012 IS-F with less than 20k miles feels cheaper and crappier inside compared to an LS430 that is 10 years older and has 200k miles more on the clock.
Everybody has a preference. Some people like the attention, some people like a boxy old school look. And some people like a fatass look that you get with the Supra.
Driving wise, I prefer an SC. My friend's MKIV single turbo felt too cramped and cheap inside. I am just partial to Lexus, we have 7 cars in the family, 5 of which are Lexus. I lean toward the more refined, smoother feel of Lexus as a personal preference. My 2012 IS-F with less than 20k miles feels cheaper and crappier inside compared to an LS430 that is 10 years older and has 200k miles more on the clock.
04-02-16, 04:34 PM
#62
at least he can recover his money if anything happens, sc could never do that. I put over 34k in my sc and what will I get 20k? that's sad. I would love a supra just for the value it holds. I hope you tested a supra because it feels different in a sporty good way, sc has a luxury sporty in a good way too, that was my direction, get a sc and turn it in to a Supra luxury feel
Last edited by mikef; 04-02-16 at 04:37 PM.
04-02-16, 04:48 PM
#63
Recover what money? Maybe for a stock car. Look at what Geo got for that built Supra... what was it? $85k? For one of the most badass and best built Supras anyone has ever seen. That guy lost his *** big time on that car. There was WAY more than $85k in that car. You can always just part it if it gets old, 2JZ parts are only going up in price.
04-02-16, 05:14 PM
#64
^97-SC300 I think you your build is probably the best I've ever seen!!
Don't get me wrong. I never said the SC wasn't beautiful or that I don't love it. I'd keep it if I had room for it but I don't.
I also love the Supra more and honestly was about to pull the trigger on a 2014 911 Carrera S just as I found the Supra.
The SC will always be a great car but the real problem I see with them is not the car themselves. It's the people that are buying them recently and just flat out putting out some really bad builds. This is why they have bottomed out compared to 10 years ago.
So few great SC's around anymore with so many others that are flat out terrible. Not trying to hurt anyone's feelings but same thing happened when I had my 7 series BMW.
Once they become attainable by everyone the market just goes to hell!
Don't get me wrong. I never said the SC wasn't beautiful or that I don't love it. I'd keep it if I had room for it but I don't.
I also love the Supra more and honestly was about to pull the trigger on a 2014 911 Carrera S just as I found the Supra.
The SC will always be a great car but the real problem I see with them is not the car themselves. It's the people that are buying them recently and just flat out putting out some really bad builds. This is why they have bottomed out compared to 10 years ago.
So few great SC's around anymore with so many others that are flat out terrible. Not trying to hurt anyone's feelings but same thing happened when I had my 7 series BMW.
Once they become attainable by everyone the market just goes to hell!
Last edited by FSUsucks1; 04-02-16 at 05:17 PM.
04-02-16, 05:19 PM
#65
FSU, I absolutely agree. The quality of builds on this forum vs. Supraforums is a night and day difference.
I joined this forum 10 years ago and it was very different back then. It's sometimes nice to see the evolution in the builds since that time (the cool LSX swaps, different tranny options, people pushing the NA-T platform as well as the 1J/2J GTE platform). Unfortunately, with the depreciation in value, this car has attracted lots of buyers that are not exactly doing this car any favors.
I joined this forum 10 years ago and it was very different back then. It's sometimes nice to see the evolution in the builds since that time (the cool LSX swaps, different tranny options, people pushing the NA-T platform as well as the 1J/2J GTE platform). Unfortunately, with the depreciation in value, this car has attracted lots of buyers that are not exactly doing this car any favors.
04-02-16, 05:46 PM
#67
I'll simplify this topic for u... The Sc's are built like a TANK, whereas the Supra is not... Capisce!
04-03-16, 01:48 AM
#68
So many of you guys have made very good points above. I'd jump at the chance to drive and own any Supra MKIV so long as it were manual or converted to manual. It's just a very beautiful sports car. It always has been. I'll never forget the first time I saw one at dusk at a stoplight in 1997 or 1998. That car was just ahead in an adjacent lane and the glowing tail lights looked awesome.
The MKIV is a timeless car. The SC is also a timeless car in a different way.
From the beginning it really did remind me of memories from my family's 1990 LS400 right down to the tan interior and button layouts. I found all of that charming when I bought my SC.
The Supra, however, was a legend even when it was new. The SC was only known for the brand prestige, unique looks and build quality. Lexus USA didn't want the 2.5GT engine or the R154 manual or an LSD I assume because it didn't fit their brand image at the time, it would have competed with their V8 option and would have competed with low volume halo Supra sales. And few people know the car was ever anything but what it was from the factory. I've noticed that as sporty luxury cars age it's only the ones that were actually built as sports machines from the factory and marketed as such (the M3 for instance) that retain some of their value or accrue in some value.
And it's a shame because FSUsucks1 is right. It's not the car that's the problem or even the valuation reality that it's not a rare car with 82k made. It's that few people see them as the very nice luxury driver machines we do. Most people (and I am not referring to the forum, just in the US in general) like the prestige of getting into a Lexus they can afford, even if they do feel this model is unique in and of itself, and they don't really treat it as what it is: a classic car.
The MKIV is also very, very much a classic car. It's just a VERY well known and VERY highly valued classic car that is rare enough to command the prices it does.
The only value I've ever thought should be a reasonable one for the 92-00 SC is if it competes against one very, very specific used market niche that turns out to be not so easy to find in any make or model below a certain amount. 2+2 RWD coupe with trunk, very reliable, 300-400hp factory stock engine (swapped or original), highly tuneable, manual transmission, LSD equipped, independent suspension, good brakes. Usually all those specs in any model will cost you $15k-$17k minimum for a good example that isn't trashed. The model and make don't seem to matter much. Often that's the benchmark price I've encountered when I insist on those specs in a used car.
Even if a car like the Supra TT 6-speed has all the same kind of hardware its value is based on far more than comparative sports machine value for the money. It's very rare, very in demand and it's legendary. Even 308 series Ferraris value for much more than their specs alone give them credibility for.
I love both cars. I'd love to own an MKIV TT 6-speed someday but I do love an SC with the same drivetrain or almost the same drivetrain. It's such a livable day to day luxury car in addition to being a refined mild muscle car. When JZZ30 Soarer VVT-i 2.5 5-speeds become legal to import down the road I think I'd perhaps look into a stock one.
FSUsucks1, your SC looks beautiful! I'm glad you're letting it go to someone who will appreciate it!
Last edited by KahnBB6; 04-03-16 at 01:53 AM.
04-03-16, 04:25 AM
#69
Not sure I follow what that means, tank as far as what? Motor and drivetrain are essentially the same build quality. In the case of the 300 literally same motor/trans/rear as NA Supras. SC's are more luxurious but that's what the purpose was. I like the interior layout of SC but love the Supra dash setup because it's driver oriented.
04-03-16, 07:59 AM
#70
Ahhhhh 
.... the great perennial debate... which one is better ? That all depends on who you ask. The SC owners will vigorously defend their SCs and likewise the MKIV owners will fight to death for their cars...lol.
Looks are subjective. A woman maybe pretty for somebody but ugly to somebody else. Both cars have their own pros and cons. Having 4 of each car , I would say I like them both. I like the SC for it's being a sleeper status once you have that lethal power train in there, hurting the ego of owners of new corvettes,mustangs or the like when they cannot catch up with you on the streets. I prefer it on a longer travel since it is more spacious inside. I never appreciated a MKIV before I owned one since I had an SC first. But after I owned my first MKIV , got hooked . I would dare anybody to tell me flat out that the MKIV is ugly and he doesn't like it AFTER owning one for a month , driving and cruising around with it. I would like to hear it from the horse mouth, lol.
When it comes to power train , the SC300 and NA MKIV are same. With the TT (auto / 6speed) there is no comparison since the SC never had it. The soarers had the 2.5TT / r154 though. Exactly the reason why SC owners are doing swaps . All the other parts like suspension , wheels and some others are all interchangeable.
The interior of an SC is spacious and MKIV a bit cramped but remember the original intentions of the makers of the car. The SC was meant to be a luxury car and the other was meant to be compact sporty fast car.
If you want attention, no doubt the MKIV wins hands down . You will have more people breaking their necks trying to find out what car you are driving while cruising around or just being in a parking lot. When you build a performance car , build one to reward yourself for the hard work you do and for you to enjoy. Not unless you get a good deal on every part you install or do all the work yourself , you will never get back your investment. All cosmetics like chroming , powder coating , painting or anything associated to look good stuff all goes down the drain meaning you will never get back your investment on that aspect. If you started with a high priced car , all the more it will be tough to get back your investments.
If you want to enjoy a performance car and still be able to get back your investment or probably make some ... get your cash always ready. When a good deal comes (someone in a bind badly wanting to sell his performance car) grab it if the price is way below market price. That's the only way you get a free play. But again along the process while using the car , if you don't do your own work , maintenance will still cost you money.
Just on this thread , at least 3 people laments the way our SCs are maintained or modified or built. People don't do things right . Let us face it .. people want a nice performance car and yet many will cheap out and still some get butt hurt when you mention this very true fact. Then they are the very same people complaining that their or somebody else performance car isn't working properly
At this point in time (it may never be this way, only time will tell) , let us say you have an SC and MKIV either with exactly same stock drive train or exactly the same built drive train, which one will hold their value year by year or will appreciate year by year.... we all know the answer to that at least for now . The SC even with exactly the same drive train will have lesser buyers and interest when the time comes that each car would have to be sold. No wonder we have never seen a well built SC sold for a good price. Most if not all of them had been parted out regardless of how much waiting they did to sell it. There are simply no buyers. For MKIVs, it is a matter of time as we have seen it.. more often than not it will sell not unless it is a very ridiculously high priced car. On account of that , you have better chances of getting your investments back from a MKIV than an SC.
.... the great perennial debate... which one is better ? That all depends on who you ask. The SC owners will vigorously defend their SCs and likewise the MKIV owners will fight to death for their cars...lol.Looks are subjective. A woman maybe pretty for somebody but ugly to somebody else. Both cars have their own pros and cons. Having 4 of each car , I would say I like them both. I like the SC for it's being a sleeper status once you have that lethal power train in there, hurting the ego of owners of new corvettes,mustangs or the like when they cannot catch up with you on the streets. I prefer it on a longer travel since it is more spacious inside. I never appreciated a MKIV before I owned one since I had an SC first. But after I owned my first MKIV , got hooked . I would dare anybody to tell me flat out that the MKIV is ugly and he doesn't like it AFTER owning one for a month , driving and cruising around with it. I would like to hear it from the horse mouth, lol.
When it comes to power train , the SC300 and NA MKIV are same. With the TT (auto / 6speed) there is no comparison since the SC never had it. The soarers had the 2.5TT / r154 though. Exactly the reason why SC owners are doing swaps . All the other parts like suspension , wheels and some others are all interchangeable.
The interior of an SC is spacious and MKIV a bit cramped but remember the original intentions of the makers of the car. The SC was meant to be a luxury car and the other was meant to be compact sporty fast car.
If you want attention, no doubt the MKIV wins hands down . You will have more people breaking their necks trying to find out what car you are driving while cruising around or just being in a parking lot. When you build a performance car , build one to reward yourself for the hard work you do and for you to enjoy. Not unless you get a good deal on every part you install or do all the work yourself , you will never get back your investment. All cosmetics like chroming , powder coating , painting or anything associated to look good stuff all goes down the drain meaning you will never get back your investment on that aspect. If you started with a high priced car , all the more it will be tough to get back your investments.
If you want to enjoy a performance car and still be able to get back your investment or probably make some ... get your cash always ready. When a good deal comes (someone in a bind badly wanting to sell his performance car) grab it if the price is way below market price. That's the only way you get a free play. But again along the process while using the car , if you don't do your own work , maintenance will still cost you money.
Just on this thread , at least 3 people laments the way our SCs are maintained or modified or built. People don't do things right . Let us face it .. people want a nice performance car and yet many will cheap out and still some get butt hurt when you mention this very true fact. Then they are the very same people complaining that their or somebody else performance car isn't working properly
At this point in time (it may never be this way, only time will tell) , let us say you have an SC and MKIV either with exactly same stock drive train or exactly the same built drive train, which one will hold their value year by year or will appreciate year by year.... we all know the answer to that at least for now . The SC even with exactly the same drive train will have lesser buyers and interest when the time comes that each car would have to be sold. No wonder we have never seen a well built SC sold for a good price. Most if not all of them had been parted out regardless of how much waiting they did to sell it. There are simply no buyers. For MKIVs, it is a matter of time as we have seen it.. more often than not it will sell not unless it is a very ridiculously high priced car. On account of that , you have better chances of getting your investments back from a MKIV than an SC.
Last edited by gerrb; 04-03-16 at 08:39 AM.
04-03-16, 08:36 AM
#71
Let's just all agree there are pros and cons to owning either car... They are both great.
One everybody knows about, hence the "wow" factor and high prices because they are rarely seen.
Other one is a sleeper when built right. Most SC's are in dirt poor shape because of old age and people no longer caring or being able to restore them. This is why prices are low. They made more of them, they didn't have "the drivetrain" out of the box, so nobody ever looked at them as any kind of potential sports car or track car (due to the size of the vehicle as well).
SC's are nicer because parts are more plentiful, and much cheaper to buy. Supras you will pay an arm and a leg for oem body parts and interior parts if you can even find any. This is the same reason Supras hold their value more, it's more difficult and more expensive to replace the car as a whole or parts.
One everybody knows about, hence the "wow" factor and high prices because they are rarely seen.
Other one is a sleeper when built right. Most SC's are in dirt poor shape because of old age and people no longer caring or being able to restore them. This is why prices are low. They made more of them, they didn't have "the drivetrain" out of the box, so nobody ever looked at them as any kind of potential sports car or track car (due to the size of the vehicle as well).
SC's are nicer because parts are more plentiful, and much cheaper to buy. Supras you will pay an arm and a leg for oem body parts and interior parts if you can even find any. This is the same reason Supras hold their value more, it's more difficult and more expensive to replace the car as a whole or parts.
04-03-16, 09:32 AM
#72
Random thought... We keep hearing that the Supra is super rare and the SC is common, but from what I've found, the numbers aren't all that dramatically different. There were 11,300 Supras (USDM) from '93-98, so not quite 2,000 per year. Likewise, there were 82,500 SCs from '92-00, so a little over 9,000 per year. Yes, the Supra is rare, but the SC is only 4-5x more common.
That's really not much of a difference, considering "common" in car production speak is hundreds of thousands if not millions. I'd also guess that a lot more SCs than Supras have been scrapped, so the actual difference may be lower. I think the perception is off because SCs are drivers and Supras have a much higher tendency to be garage queens, so you see Supras a lot less than they're actually out there relative to SCs. You rarely see a sub-150k mile SC for sale, let alone a ~50k one, but you see 40-60k mile Supras (and lower) all the time.
Source: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...tion-numbers-s
That's really not much of a difference, considering "common" in car production speak is hundreds of thousands if not millions. I'd also guess that a lot more SCs than Supras have been scrapped, so the actual difference may be lower. I think the perception is off because SCs are drivers and Supras have a much higher tendency to be garage queens, so you see Supras a lot less than they're actually out there relative to SCs. You rarely see a sub-150k mile SC for sale, let alone a ~50k one, but you see 40-60k mile Supras (and lower) all the time.
Source: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...tion-numbers-s
04-03-16, 12:10 PM
#73
Pole Position
Great debate but in the end it is comparing apples to oranges.
In 1992 when I bought our SC, I never even considered a Toyota Supra as I was out to purchase a high end luxury sport coupe - not a sports racing car. I could have bought a Supra, I suppose, if I had been in the market for a sports car but that was not the case.
While the two platforms had then and still a lot now of elements in common, that was more a business decision by Toyota to leverage the already well engineered parts to the SC which kept the reliability factor high.
The interiors are a whole different story. I have seen so many SCs with trashed interiors (ripped seats, stained carpets, shattered door panels and window frames, worn out instruments) and the effort to restore/upgrade that aspect can be more demanding than the power train and mechanical restorations.
As many have said, they are both great cars for different and similar reasons. The Supra MKIV just happens to have held it's value where the SCs have not and require an investment to bring them up to where some have taken them. I believe the lower used car price of the SCs make them more affordable to a lot more people that can then mod/upgrade/restore them at their abilities (time, skills, money) and are a lot more fun to see the variety of choices that owners pursue.
The "sleeper car" aspect of a powerful SC that dominates the other street muscle cars is fun, too (when it is done safely).
In 1992 when I bought our SC, I never even considered a Toyota Supra as I was out to purchase a high end luxury sport coupe - not a sports racing car. I could have bought a Supra, I suppose, if I had been in the market for a sports car but that was not the case.
While the two platforms had then and still a lot now of elements in common, that was more a business decision by Toyota to leverage the already well engineered parts to the SC which kept the reliability factor high.
The interiors are a whole different story. I have seen so many SCs with trashed interiors (ripped seats, stained carpets, shattered door panels and window frames, worn out instruments) and the effort to restore/upgrade that aspect can be more demanding than the power train and mechanical restorations.
As many have said, they are both great cars for different and similar reasons. The Supra MKIV just happens to have held it's value where the SCs have not and require an investment to bring them up to where some have taken them. I believe the lower used car price of the SCs make them more affordable to a lot more people that can then mod/upgrade/restore them at their abilities (time, skills, money) and are a lot more fun to see the variety of choices that owners pursue.
The "sleeper car" aspect of a powerful SC that dominates the other street muscle cars is fun, too (when it is done safely).
