3,883 SC300 Manuals Produced, how many remain in stock original condition?
07-03-18, 03:10 PM
#1
Driver
Thread Starter
3,883 SC300 Manuals Produced, how many remain in stock original condition?
Out of the 3,883 SC's manuals produced, how many would you think are remaining in original condition? No mods, no body damage, original Paint, original body panels, motor and trans, clean title and appearing close to show room condition?
Do any members here own a stock 93 Pearl white 5spd?
Searching Cars.com and Auto-trader nationwide and Cl in 13 major city's across the country.. I found 20 manuals. 10 were highly modified, a few holding S titles were priced at $10k to $15K. 7 of the 20 were basket cases/junk priced around $2k and only 3 appeared to be stock selling for $5k to 9K.Only 3 of the 20 were stock survivors.
My speculation is, ½ of the 3,883 are gone forever, crushed or dismantled. Out of the approx 2,000 units remaining, some limited research would indicate 75% of the 1,941 remaining manuals have been modified or altered from original. Leaving approx 500 total stock units.
Breaking it down by year , 1993 manuals, total units produced 910 - ½ gone 405 remaining. Divide the 405 by seven colors = 57 pearl whites x 75% rate of modification =42 modified 57 pearl whites remaining -42 modified units =15 1993 pearl white manuals that are in original condition
Looking at the classic car collector market and using their definitions, stock original reflects a unit that would not appear different than factory, has all original panels, matching motor and trans..Question, if the seats and trim are reupholstered back to stock appearance, and no modification have been done only required service and maintenance completed..would a car of that description be considered stock original?
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redlinemac (07-29-19)
07-09-18, 08:34 PM
#3
Your guess of 50% gone is pretty much dead on to what we actually figured out. A guy on facebook who has access to a VIN database of currently registered SC3/400s in the United States posted up the numbers he ran from last fall and I compared it to these numbers you listed here. We found that the attrition rate was just about 50% (+-10%). So as of the fall of 2017, roughly half of all SCs produced from 92-00 are junked.
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07-10-18, 12:44 PM
#4
Your guess of 50% gone is pretty much dead on to what we actually figured out. A guy on facebook who has access to a VIN database of currently registered SC3/400s in the United States posted up the numbers he ran from last fall and I compared it to these numbers you listed here. We found that the attrition rate was just about 50% (+-10%). So as of the fall of 2017, roughly half of all SCs produced from 92-00 are junked.
07-10-18, 01:46 PM
#5
Driver
Thread Starter
How many of the 50% remaining are stock original
Your guess of 50% gone is pretty much dead on to what we actually figured out. A guy on facebook who has access to a VIN database of currently registered SC3/400s in the United States posted up the numbers he ran from last fall and I compared it to these numbers you listed here. We found that the attrition rate was just about 50% (+-10%). So as of the fall of 2017, roughly half of all SCs produced from 92-00 are junked.
Your post is appreciated..thanks! Out of the presumably 2,000 SC3 5spds remaining, how many would you estimate remain in stock original condition? no mod's no paint work?
07-11-18, 06:51 PM
#6
Both my 92 manual and my 93 manual have been painted. The 93 only had some color repaired and re-clear coated and the interior is stock but a couple of rips. I have bought W58 transmissions out of two 93's and a 94 at junk yards on scrapped cars so there are 3 off of the original list for sure.
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ahero4all (07-16-18)
07-16-18, 12:44 AM
#7
Driver
Thread Starter
Both my 92 manual and my 93 manual have been painted. The 93 only had some color repaired and re-clear coated and the interior is stock but a couple of rips. I have bought W58 transmissions out of two 93's and a 94 at junk yards on scrapped cars so there are 3 off of the original list for sure.
appears you are a huge SC enthusiast..thanks for your input, much appreciated..
I'm really starting to think that my Pearl white 93SC3 manual might be one of only a hand full or less 93 stock original units remaining..what do you think?
appears only half survived and the majority of the remaining have been modified or beat up..
Have you seen many stock all original 5spds?
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07-16-18, 07:41 AM
#8
My 97 5 Speed is completely stock save for the swapped out the Rear diff for a matching OEM supra LSD of the same ratio from the same year. Original paint and only 55k miles
Last edited by Crypto79; 03-26-23 at 06:39 AM.
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redlinemac (07-29-19)
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redlinemac (07-29-19)
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redlinemac (07-29-19)
LHD or RHD, same same, but different, but still the same
07-21-18, 07:13 PM
#13
241,000 miles on my 1993 original 5-speed. I bought it in totally stock condition at 189k but it didn't stay that way for very long. It's very far from that now, although I've tried to keep its overall appearance very close to stock inside and out.
Something I feel is relevant to consider when we talk about these models is this: in completely stock original condition the SC300 5-speed manual is a fun car but rather subdued. Leaving the original engine and transmission stock, does it detract from the desirability and value of an "original" SC300 5-speed more or less if someone has modified the car in some very key areas that enhance, rather than detract, from its natural character while still being largely invisible to the onlooker?
The 95-00 LS400 front brake caliper upgrade is something that, in my opinion, was always essential for safety AND more performance braking ability since from the factory all original 5-speeds come with front brake calipers and discs that are actually smaller than the ones in the rear. At the bare minimum, switching these out even for stock 92-00 SC400 (same as 98-00 SC300) front calipers and discs I think would be acceptable since those will fit under the stock wheels and would at least not be smaller in side than the rear calipers. I was very uncomfortable and a bit scared driving my SC with the original brakes in anything but slow stop and go traffic so... changing them was a no-brainer. Today almost all sporty cars have much better sized and matched braking systems from the factory.
An LSD (not a welded diff) with the 4.08 stock 5-speed ratio or a 4.27 ratio always seemed like something Lexus should have offered or made standard on this SC300 variant. But it remains a popular upgrade. It cannot be seen but only detected when behind the wheel. A true LSD in any car, at least of the milder Torsen variety, is usually considered a plus to most prospective performance collector car enthusiast buyers.
A rear sway bar upgrade and upgraded springs and shocks. Subjective perhaps but if the ride height and stiffness/rebound aren't drastically changed, does this also detract from desirable original qualities if it reasonably (again, not detrimentally) enhances the sporting character of the car?
Since the factory Halogen headlights do not provide the best visibility (and therefore road safety), does a reversible or even permanent HID headlight upgrade enhance or detract the value and appeal of a largely original example?
I guess my point is that unlike the RHD Toyota Soarer Z30 1JZGTE 5-speed models, our SC300 5-speeds were given the short end of the stick and over the years many SC owners and enthusiasts have added a few of these features to their cars using many of the parts that Toyota made but simply did not offer in this market. And yet much of that factory equipment remains desirable to the majority of people who are interested in SC300/400's today.
When it comes to engine swaps, turbo builds and transmission changes or anything else that is a very drastic departure from stock, I'd say those are going to be definite inarguable departures from "stock original" even if they are desirable in their own way.
But for the core and simple mechanical upgrades that do not overwhelm or visually disturb the original appeal or overall character of the SC 5-speed... are these things truly going to detract from the desirable factor of an otherwise "original and almost stock" SC300 5-speed... or slightly enhance its desirability and collectability?
I think if these cars had more of the standard performance equipment that the Z30 Soarers came with from the factory (that we hunt down and install from those cars or Supras) this would be a moot point.
All that having been said, I am making these points for the sake of group discussion on the topic more than anything else. Personally I have far exceeded this argument when it comes to the originality of my own SC300 5-speed but until I swapped the engine and transmission I did try to keep my car's modifications and appearance very close to the argument of these grey area exceptions as I could.
I fully realize that no matter what, the argument for exceptions that I'm making still can never allow a modified SC300 5-speed to be considered truly "stock".
Something I feel is relevant to consider when we talk about these models is this: in completely stock original condition the SC300 5-speed manual is a fun car but rather subdued. Leaving the original engine and transmission stock, does it detract from the desirability and value of an "original" SC300 5-speed more or less if someone has modified the car in some very key areas that enhance, rather than detract, from its natural character while still being largely invisible to the onlooker?
The 95-00 LS400 front brake caliper upgrade is something that, in my opinion, was always essential for safety AND more performance braking ability since from the factory all original 5-speeds come with front brake calipers and discs that are actually smaller than the ones in the rear. At the bare minimum, switching these out even for stock 92-00 SC400 (same as 98-00 SC300) front calipers and discs I think would be acceptable since those will fit under the stock wheels and would at least not be smaller in side than the rear calipers. I was very uncomfortable and a bit scared driving my SC with the original brakes in anything but slow stop and go traffic so... changing them was a no-brainer. Today almost all sporty cars have much better sized and matched braking systems from the factory.
An LSD (not a welded diff) with the 4.08 stock 5-speed ratio or a 4.27 ratio always seemed like something Lexus should have offered or made standard on this SC300 variant. But it remains a popular upgrade. It cannot be seen but only detected when behind the wheel. A true LSD in any car, at least of the milder Torsen variety, is usually considered a plus to most prospective performance collector car enthusiast buyers.
A rear sway bar upgrade and upgraded springs and shocks. Subjective perhaps but if the ride height and stiffness/rebound aren't drastically changed, does this also detract from desirable original qualities if it reasonably (again, not detrimentally) enhances the sporting character of the car?
Since the factory Halogen headlights do not provide the best visibility (and therefore road safety), does a reversible or even permanent HID headlight upgrade enhance or detract the value and appeal of a largely original example?
I guess my point is that unlike the RHD Toyota Soarer Z30 1JZGTE 5-speed models, our SC300 5-speeds were given the short end of the stick and over the years many SC owners and enthusiasts have added a few of these features to their cars using many of the parts that Toyota made but simply did not offer in this market. And yet much of that factory equipment remains desirable to the majority of people who are interested in SC300/400's today.
When it comes to engine swaps, turbo builds and transmission changes or anything else that is a very drastic departure from stock, I'd say those are going to be definite inarguable departures from "stock original" even if they are desirable in their own way.
But for the core and simple mechanical upgrades that do not overwhelm or visually disturb the original appeal or overall character of the SC 5-speed... are these things truly going to detract from the desirable factor of an otherwise "original and almost stock" SC300 5-speed... or slightly enhance its desirability and collectability?
I think if these cars had more of the standard performance equipment that the Z30 Soarers came with from the factory (that we hunt down and install from those cars or Supras) this would be a moot point.
All that having been said, I am making these points for the sake of group discussion on the topic more than anything else. Personally I have far exceeded this argument when it comes to the originality of my own SC300 5-speed but until I swapped the engine and transmission I did try to keep my car's modifications and appearance very close to the argument of these grey area exceptions as I could.
I fully realize that no matter what, the argument for exceptions that I'm making still can never allow a modified SC300 5-speed to be considered truly "stock".
Last edited by KahnBB6; 07-21-18 at 07:30 PM.
08-27-18, 04:42 AM
#14
My 97 5spd is all original other than the front seats which I recovered. Its got around 130k miles on it and runs fine. The original green paint is shot but the body is straight and in good condition. It deserves a quality paint job but I'm not willing to put the money into so I'll just continue to drive it as us. I've got other cars and I can look past its appearance. It puts a smile on my face every time that I drive it.
10-07-18, 02:09 PM
#15
Driver
Thread Starter
In the past I specialized in classic, vintage, collectible and muscle car's, where rarity and condition ruled! That Market is now almost entirely a rich guy sport. My assessment is at some point rare 90's auto are going to be the next class of auto's which will become collectible fetching big money on the auction block. I pose the following would be a good basis for establishing a baseline on definition in terms of condition for Import auto's manufactured in the 90's which are very rare, desirable with collectible value.
“Factory Original” a “ Survivor” Very desirable with high collector value, The first school of thought is that if you change any original part on the car, retouch any paint or fix any rust, etc., the vehicle is no longer Factory original. Exactly as it left the factory, regardless of its current age and condition, any original parts that failed should be removed and rebuilt exactly as original, starters, clutches, alternators etc not replaced, the exterior and interior must remain untouched, leaving the external patina alone.
“Stock Original” Very desirable meticulously maintained with collector potential, books and records, matching numbers Motor/transmission / matching body panels, Interior appears as factory correct factory audio.. failed parts were replaced, rebuilt or upgraded, repainted to factory color. The factory integrity of the car is being retained. It doesn't have aftermarket wheels, has not been lowered , no custom paint or interior, non non-original gauges or other modifications retaining a nostalgic original look.
“Modified” Any major adjustment from Original, Numbers-matching or Non Matching, changes made to the exterior and interior, mechanical, suspension, brakes, rims etc also referred to as a Restomod , Here again, having a numbers-matching car is of no importance as this car usually features a highly modified suspension, aftermarket wheels, modified engine compartment and interior.
“Driver” No Collectible value, regular maintenance, could make a driver across the country.
Below are examples of 90's Imports that are already showing the signs..
Look at the Toyota Supra Turbo (93-98) Survivors can fetch close to six figures..All Porsche's models minus the Boxster are going through the roof!Original low mile Acura NSX are now six figure cars, “Legend & Integra couple Type S 5 speed are near to impossible to find”Nissan 300ZX Twin Turbo Mazda (93-95)RX7, Audi S' models, Honda S2000,BMW M3, M5 M6,Lexus SC300 5spd, 98-00 SC400, Z06 Corvettes, Z28 Camero, Ford Shelby & Cobra Mustangs.
Feel free to add to the list
There is on definitive answers, so it's probably best to leave it at "to each his own" and enjoy them all. I'm sure there is a myriad of other feelings flowing out there...
The collectible market uses a scale of 1-6
#1 Like it came off the show room or better, a time capsule. Stock Condition all the way through, Numbers-matching Factory Stock or High End Rotisserie Restoration. Blue chip stock, highly collectible
#2 Not a #1 but very close Totally Stock in appearance Numbers-matching collectible
#3 Still collectible, not Perfect Both Numbers-matching or Numbers non matching
#4 Borderline collectible condition, Not numbers matching#5 Drives but needs a high Level of work#6 Basket case, Restoration or parts car
“Factory Original” a “ Survivor” Very desirable with high collector value, The first school of thought is that if you change any original part on the car, retouch any paint or fix any rust, etc., the vehicle is no longer Factory original. Exactly as it left the factory, regardless of its current age and condition, any original parts that failed should be removed and rebuilt exactly as original, starters, clutches, alternators etc not replaced, the exterior and interior must remain untouched, leaving the external patina alone.
“Stock Original” Very desirable meticulously maintained with collector potential, books and records, matching numbers Motor/transmission / matching body panels, Interior appears as factory correct factory audio.. failed parts were replaced, rebuilt or upgraded, repainted to factory color. The factory integrity of the car is being retained. It doesn't have aftermarket wheels, has not been lowered , no custom paint or interior, non non-original gauges or other modifications retaining a nostalgic original look.
“Modified” Any major adjustment from Original, Numbers-matching or Non Matching, changes made to the exterior and interior, mechanical, suspension, brakes, rims etc also referred to as a Restomod , Here again, having a numbers-matching car is of no importance as this car usually features a highly modified suspension, aftermarket wheels, modified engine compartment and interior.
“Driver” No Collectible value, regular maintenance, could make a driver across the country.
Below are examples of 90's Imports that are already showing the signs..
Look at the Toyota Supra Turbo (93-98) Survivors can fetch close to six figures..All Porsche's models minus the Boxster are going through the roof!Original low mile Acura NSX are now six figure cars, “Legend & Integra couple Type S 5 speed are near to impossible to find”Nissan 300ZX Twin Turbo Mazda (93-95)RX7, Audi S' models, Honda S2000,BMW M3, M5 M6,Lexus SC300 5spd, 98-00 SC400, Z06 Corvettes, Z28 Camero, Ford Shelby & Cobra Mustangs.
Feel free to add to the list
There is on definitive answers, so it's probably best to leave it at "to each his own" and enjoy them all. I'm sure there is a myriad of other feelings flowing out there...
The collectible market uses a scale of 1-6
#1 Like it came off the show room or better, a time capsule. Stock Condition all the way through, Numbers-matching Factory Stock or High End Rotisserie Restoration. Blue chip stock, highly collectible
#2 Not a #1 but very close Totally Stock in appearance Numbers-matching collectible
#3 Still collectible, not Perfect Both Numbers-matching or Numbers non matching
#4 Borderline collectible condition, Not numbers matching#5 Drives but needs a high Level of work#6 Basket case, Restoration or parts car
Last edited by ahero4all; 10-07-18 at 02:13 PM. Reason: grammer
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