04 SC430 or 04 M3 convertible ?
03-29-04, 06:58 AM
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04 SC430 or 04 M3 convertible ?
Gentleman,
I am in need of your expertise... I am currently in the last part of a lemon law case with my 03 M-B CLK 500. I expect to settle within this month. I am pretty sure I will not buy a M-B anytime soon due to my personal experience. I have narrowed down my choices to the SC 430 and M3 Convertible. I have not driven either car for over a year so I wanted your input. My questions are:
1. Since this will be my only car how is cargo space between the two cars? I know M-B has a special piece of luggage that fits perfectly for the back seat/shelf on the SL models; does something like this exist either from Lexus or after-market?
2. Clearly the SC is a much more "refined" ride then the M3... other then that why did you choose the SC over the M3 or similar cars?
3. I had the Alpine Mobile Mayday in my 00 GS 300 and TeleAid in my 03 M-B CLK and really enjoy knowing that if something happens that someone is "just the touch of a button away". I cannot find a direct answer about Lexus Link in the SC. I am from MD but go to school in NC. About 2 years ago I remember seeing it as an option down here but not in MD. What is the real deal?
4. I really enjoy the after-market mod that allows you to drop the top from the Lexus fob, how much did this cost and how difficult would this be to have a regular car audio/video installer do?
Thanks for any and all help/suggestions and look forward to hearing back soon.
-A.T.
I am in need of your expertise... I am currently in the last part of a lemon law case with my 03 M-B CLK 500. I expect to settle within this month. I am pretty sure I will not buy a M-B anytime soon due to my personal experience. I have narrowed down my choices to the SC 430 and M3 Convertible. I have not driven either car for over a year so I wanted your input. My questions are:
1. Since this will be my only car how is cargo space between the two cars? I know M-B has a special piece of luggage that fits perfectly for the back seat/shelf on the SL models; does something like this exist either from Lexus or after-market?
2. Clearly the SC is a much more "refined" ride then the M3... other then that why did you choose the SC over the M3 or similar cars?
3. I had the Alpine Mobile Mayday in my 00 GS 300 and TeleAid in my 03 M-B CLK and really enjoy knowing that if something happens that someone is "just the touch of a button away". I cannot find a direct answer about Lexus Link in the SC. I am from MD but go to school in NC. About 2 years ago I remember seeing it as an option down here but not in MD. What is the real deal?
4. I really enjoy the after-market mod that allows you to drop the top from the Lexus fob, how much did this cost and how difficult would this be to have a regular car audio/video installer do?
Thanks for any and all help/suggestions and look forward to hearing back soon.
-A.T.
03-29-04, 07:22 AM
#2
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I am not an SC owner ( I have an IS300 ) but I do some auto consulting in my spare time, can give you some advice here.
As far a cargo space is concerned, neither car is exactly a station wagon due to the storage space needed by the drop tops. The M3 may have a slight advantage here due to its boxier rear-end design...but don't expect to use either car as a cargo van with the top down...or even with it up.
I see you are fairly new to these forums but but if you look through them you will see MANY complaints about recent Mercedes-Benz quality, so you're cetainly not alone. BMW quality has also dropped off lately....in the 5, 7, and X-series more so than in the 3 ( partly because Chris Bangle has not messed up the 3 yet ). BMW also has had a fairly high failure rate with M-series engines. If you want quality and reliability, there is no question you should go with the SC. And reliability is ESPECIALLY important with a power-operated convertible top....you DON'T want the top ( or the power windows ) to get stuck or inpoerative in the down position with a nice thunderstorm comong up....and I know North Carolina has a lot of storms. And with the metal hard top up, the SC will be much more solid....an comfortable....than the M3's cloth top.
Last, you will find Lexus dealers in general to be less arrogant then Bimmer shops.
I say go with the SC.
As far a cargo space is concerned, neither car is exactly a station wagon due to the storage space needed by the drop tops. The M3 may have a slight advantage here due to its boxier rear-end design...but don't expect to use either car as a cargo van with the top down...or even with it up.
I see you are fairly new to these forums but but if you look through them you will see MANY complaints about recent Mercedes-Benz quality, so you're cetainly not alone. BMW quality has also dropped off lately....in the 5, 7, and X-series more so than in the 3 ( partly because Chris Bangle has not messed up the 3 yet ). BMW also has had a fairly high failure rate with M-series engines. If you want quality and reliability, there is no question you should go with the SC. And reliability is ESPECIALLY important with a power-operated convertible top....you DON'T want the top ( or the power windows ) to get stuck or inpoerative in the down position with a nice thunderstorm comong up....and I know North Carolina has a lot of storms. And with the metal hard top up, the SC will be much more solid....an comfortable....than the M3's cloth top.
Last, you will find Lexus dealers in general to be less arrogant then Bimmer shops.
I say go with the SC.
03-29-04, 07:26 AM
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I cannot speak for the M3, but I own a 2002 Millenium Silver SC430 and I would affirm that the trunk space IS limited in the SC430 and virtually nonexistent when the roof is stored.
Funny story along that line: I'm driving to the Baltimore-Washington International Airport and I've got the top down. I see the check-point up ahead and a State Trooper pointing at me and motioning me to pull over (I'm well below the speed limit, so I assume that I'm being randomly stopped). So, I pull over and the trooper very politely explains that due to hightened security at the airport I'm being stopped for a random search of the car and the Trooper asks me to open the trunk (I'm laughing on the inside `cause you can't fit much in there with the top stored). The Trooper searches the trunk and I hear another Trooper state "I told you it was small in there" and we all have a good laugh.
I LOVE my SC430; it is the third of three successive Lexus automobiles that I have owned. The SC430 is fun to drive (I don't drive it "hard") and is great for commuting and short trips. I've never driven it in the snow - and wouldn't. Our other vehicle is an ISUZU Trooper - it's the heavy-lifter and long vehicle trip taker of the family.
As good a car as it is, and I think it's a great car, in my opinion the SC430 is not practical enough to own as an "only car".
Funny story along that line: I'm driving to the Baltimore-Washington International Airport and I've got the top down. I see the check-point up ahead and a State Trooper pointing at me and motioning me to pull over (I'm well below the speed limit, so I assume that I'm being randomly stopped). So, I pull over and the trooper very politely explains that due to hightened security at the airport I'm being stopped for a random search of the car and the Trooper asks me to open the trunk (I'm laughing on the inside `cause you can't fit much in there with the top stored). The Trooper searches the trunk and I hear another Trooper state "I told you it was small in there" and we all have a good laugh.
I LOVE my SC430; it is the third of three successive Lexus automobiles that I have owned. The SC430 is fun to drive (I don't drive it "hard") and is great for commuting and short trips. I've never driven it in the snow - and wouldn't. Our other vehicle is an ISUZU Trooper - it's the heavy-lifter and long vehicle trip taker of the family.
As good a car as it is, and I think it's a great car, in my opinion the SC430 is not practical enough to own as an "only car".
03-29-04, 07:29 AM
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Thanks for the quick response guys! I just called my Lexus salesman and asked him about custom luggage like M-B has for the SL's rear shelf/seat. Has anyone seen anything like this? Would you be able to take a long weekend vacation for two with luggage in the car?
-A.T.
-A.T.
03-29-04, 07:33 AM
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Strongly recommend the SC
I traded my 6 month old 2003.5 fully loaded M3 convertible for my SC 430. The M3 was a mess. In the 6 months I had it it was in the shop for about a month. Always a different problem, often attributed to some "software issue" (seems hard to believe). The onboard computer had to be replaced, the windows went up too far and scraped on the roof causing an unbelievably irritating high pitch squeak at all times, the window leaked, the tire pressure monitor malfunctioned, and the list went on.
My favorite feature of the SC is the hard top convertible. It has all the benefits of a convertible without any of the hassles and problems caused by a soft top. I love driving it with roof up or down. The fit and finish are superb. Yeah I miss the SMG power of the M3, but it was a bruising power that was not comfortable unless you were driving the car hard. The SC is smooth (even with the run flats), but had enough power available to rocket you past most any other car on the road.
Even though I took a big hit by trading in an essentially new car, I'd do it again in an instant.
My favorite feature of the SC is the hard top convertible. It has all the benefits of a convertible without any of the hassles and problems caused by a soft top. I love driving it with roof up or down. The fit and finish are superb. Yeah I miss the SMG power of the M3, but it was a bruising power that was not comfortable unless you were driving the car hard. The SC is smooth (even with the run flats), but had enough power available to rocket you past most any other car on the road.
Even though I took a big hit by trading in an essentially new car, I'd do it again in an instant.
03-29-04, 07:41 AM
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PB,
Sorry to hear about your bad situation. I guess car buying now a day is similar to visiting Vegas and gambling... it's hit or miss. My friend has a 330-performance package and loves it... not one problem. While I understand that cars are mass produced... even the high-end ones problems are still likely to occur. Do you believe that the dealership was ignorant and thus your problems did not get fixed or do you think you just got a lemon? Did you not meet/want to deal with your states lemon law?
-A.T.
Sorry to hear about your bad situation. I guess car buying now a day is similar to visiting Vegas and gambling... it's hit or miss. My friend has a 330-performance package and loves it... not one problem. While I understand that cars are mass produced... even the high-end ones problems are still likely to occur. Do you believe that the dealership was ignorant and thus your problems did not get fixed or do you think you just got a lemon? Did you not meet/want to deal with your states lemon law?
-A.T.
03-29-04, 08:49 AM
#7
I think the answer to your decision really lies in what you are looking for in a car. These are two totally different cars... the major common thread being the convertible feature.
ATWardIV-
My experience from owning an '03 SC430 for a year is that the dealer service is excellent, the car is rock-solid reliable, and the luxury and creature comforts are virtually unsurpassed. The leather, wood, sound system and quietness of this car are exceptional. Additionally, I'm sure it will be far better than the M3 for daily city and highway driving. However, I'm confused as to what your motivations are in considering the two cars because they are totally different. I believe the similarity ends with the convertible top.
If I'm not mistaken, most people purchase an M3 for the "fun factor". In the SC, you'll get much more pleasure driving down the highway with the top down and the stereo up than you will by taking hard corners. You will not have the raucous power an M3 delivers... it will be more of a smooth steady stream. It will not handle like an M3... there is more body roll. The M3 is designed to be driven hard... the SC430 is designed to be driven in a more leisurely manner. They serve two different purposes... the SC is more cruiser than sports car, the M3 more sports car with seating for four than cruiser.
To specifically answer your questions...
1) I chose the SC430 over the M3 because of the refinement, sound system, reliability, and dealer service.
2) I'm not aware of any luggage that has been custom tailored for the SC.
3) Lexus Link was apparently an option on my '03, but the dealer never mentioned anything about it. Since I wasn't that interested in it I never asked. From past threads in this forum it was my understanding Lexus might be discontinuing it. I could be wrong.
4) I never had the remote top-down feature. If you do go with the SC430, I would invest first in sway bars. According to one of the other CL members, sways take away 90% of the body roll. That will get you closer to the M3 in the handling department and you can have the best of both worlds!
Good luck with your decision!
ATWardIV-
My experience from owning an '03 SC430 for a year is that the dealer service is excellent, the car is rock-solid reliable, and the luxury and creature comforts are virtually unsurpassed. The leather, wood, sound system and quietness of this car are exceptional. Additionally, I'm sure it will be far better than the M3 for daily city and highway driving. However, I'm confused as to what your motivations are in considering the two cars because they are totally different. I believe the similarity ends with the convertible top.
If I'm not mistaken, most people purchase an M3 for the "fun factor". In the SC, you'll get much more pleasure driving down the highway with the top down and the stereo up than you will by taking hard corners. You will not have the raucous power an M3 delivers... it will be more of a smooth steady stream. It will not handle like an M3... there is more body roll. The M3 is designed to be driven hard... the SC430 is designed to be driven in a more leisurely manner. They serve two different purposes... the SC is more cruiser than sports car, the M3 more sports car with seating for four than cruiser.
To specifically answer your questions...
1) I chose the SC430 over the M3 because of the refinement, sound system, reliability, and dealer service.
2) I'm not aware of any luggage that has been custom tailored for the SC.
3) Lexus Link was apparently an option on my '03, but the dealer never mentioned anything about it. Since I wasn't that interested in it I never asked. From past threads in this forum it was my understanding Lexus might be discontinuing it. I could be wrong.
4) I never had the remote top-down feature. If you do go with the SC430, I would invest first in sway bars. According to one of the other CL members, sways take away 90% of the body roll. That will get you closer to the M3 in the handling department and you can have the best of both worlds!
Good luck with your decision!
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03-29-04, 10:38 AM
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dseag2,
I understand your point that other then the top they are two different cars. In short, (and in an attempt to not sound precocious), I am 22 who wants something sporty and reliable but with as much space for cago/people as possible. Like I said in my original post the M3 is much more sports car then luxury sedan. I guess my priorities go in this order.
1. Space (again this is my only car so I do need it to be able to handle 1-2 week trips worth of luggage)
2. Sporty/Looks (I think at times the SC is directed to a more mature audience)
3. Reliable
4. Luxury
5. Speed
6. Price
7. Availability
If putting on the sway bars helps the body roll perhaps that is a best choice if the space is very similar. In addition it appears that the M3 is $6-8k less. I have been in the back of the M3 before and did not find it to be anything grand… but for the few times you might need it but it could work. I cannot speak for the SC. Great thoughts so far guys!
-A.T.
I understand your point that other then the top they are two different cars. In short, (and in an attempt to not sound precocious), I am 22 who wants something sporty and reliable but with as much space for cago/people as possible. Like I said in my original post the M3 is much more sports car then luxury sedan. I guess my priorities go in this order.
1. Space (again this is my only car so I do need it to be able to handle 1-2 week trips worth of luggage)
2. Sporty/Looks (I think at times the SC is directed to a more mature audience)
3. Reliable
4. Luxury
5. Speed
6. Price
7. Availability
If putting on the sway bars helps the body roll perhaps that is a best choice if the space is very similar. In addition it appears that the M3 is $6-8k less. I have been in the back of the M3 before and did not find it to be anything grand… but for the few times you might need it but it could work. I cannot speak for the SC. Great thoughts so far guys!
-A.T.
03-29-04, 10:55 AM
#9
Super Moderator
You won't find a better built car even at significantly higher prices than the SC430, & it's a more comfortable and much more luxurious car to be in for everyday driving.The back seats alone can accomodate enough luggage for 2 for a weekend getaway, but if you need to carry more than one passenger, even occasionally, you can forget about the SC430.
I don't think either of these cars is a good choice as a practical everyday car if space is a priority.
I don't think either of these cars is a good choice as a practical everyday car if space is a priority.
Last edited by Gojirra99; 03-29-04 at 11:08 AM.
03-29-04, 11:27 AM
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A good buddy of mine has an M3. Friggin' fantastic car. Top notch handling, a decent amount of power, and he loves the SMG except for the fact that in 'auto' mode it's shifting is rather rough.
As for BMW service, I owned an MZ3 for 3 years and it was stone cold reliable, so I honestly don't know about the quality of their customer service firsthand. I had a BMW Z4 for a month, and it was a fantastic car (but a bit underpowered), no problems whatsoever. There's rumors of an MZ4 coming out, that would be a great option, but cargo space is pretty limited. I have heard some pretty bad stories about BMW's recent reliability and service, a very good friend of mine picked up a new 745 3 months ago and has had nothing but problems.
The part that pisses him off the most is he's dropping $1100+/month on a lease payment, and he's driving a 3-series half the time. Lexus service is beyond compare.
I've only had my SC430 for a month so far, but it's been fantastic and has gotten over 2500 miles already. The remote top feature is flat out awesome, I use it constantly. As I've said 20 times, if you have an SC430, get this wicked feature right away. Do any other hardtops (or even softtop convertibles) have this as an option, even aftermarket? People walking by literally just stop and stare at the car when it's doing it's thing. I don't think it would get more attention if naked Playboy bunnies put the top up for me.
Cargo space, the M3 will win here IMHO. Rear sears are larger (real seats!), and trunk space has to be a good bit more with the top down. That being said, the SC430 really does have a ton of space. You'd be amazed at how much you can stuff in the back seats as long as it isn't human. You can easily fit a couple carry-on size suitcases with room to spare. And if you're taking a one or two week long trip, you can just keep the top up on the way there, fit some pretty large luggage in the trunk with the top up, bring the large suitcases inside at your destination, and cruise around in style with the top down the whole time.
But really, if you haven't driven these cars in a year, GO DRIVE THEM. Drive them both extensively. Don't let the dealers give you any smack about test driving, drive em, drive em hard, and drive em for a while with the top up and down. Go ahead and toss some luggage in there to see if it will fit! You're droppin' $60k on a car here, don't mess around.
The interior on the lexus is much much better than the M3, and the touchscreen nav system is lightyears ahead. The BMW's new DVD based nav is 'ok', but it's really slow to enter data by twirling a ****, it's not as fast or easy to use as the Lexus system, but it's superb compared to their old horrid CD based system.
I've just installed a Tein CS coilover kit on my SC430, and handling is much better, but the M3 will still win anyday of the week, it's a total drivers car and intimately connected with the road. Yes, I could make my SC430 handle like that, I could've gone with the Tein Flex kit and made the suspension really stiff, but I prefer the comfort level I have with the handling I have now. BMWs engineers are simply magicians, great ride, great handling, realitively low road noise for the level of handling.
Have you considered the new AMG SLK 55? I would assume not with your recent Mercedes experience, and it's luggage space. How about the Cadillac XLR? It's a superb looking car, and they're finally kicking up the production numbers on them so the price will drop below MSRP. But it doesn't have rear seats and is REALLY low on luggage space. The interior on it is not quite as nice, but it has a superb nav system, XM radio option, adaptive cruise control, realtime controllable magnetic suspension, HUD, and a VERY decent soundsystem (it's Bose, but it's actually quite good, the Lexus ML system rocks it's nads though).
Ok, I've rambled enough. The M3 is awesome. Drivers car all the way. The SC430 has far more luxury, is quieter, better soundsystem, better nav, better service, better reliability, smoother shifting, less power, less fun to drive, poorer handling. I can't slam the M3, BMW makes a wicked driver's car. I wish there were an 'M' SC430!
As for BMW service, I owned an MZ3 for 3 years and it was stone cold reliable, so I honestly don't know about the quality of their customer service firsthand. I had a BMW Z4 for a month, and it was a fantastic car (but a bit underpowered), no problems whatsoever. There's rumors of an MZ4 coming out, that would be a great option, but cargo space is pretty limited. I have heard some pretty bad stories about BMW's recent reliability and service, a very good friend of mine picked up a new 745 3 months ago and has had nothing but problems.
The part that pisses him off the most is he's dropping $1100+/month on a lease payment, and he's driving a 3-series half the time. Lexus service is beyond compare. I've only had my SC430 for a month so far, but it's been fantastic and has gotten over 2500 miles already. The remote top feature is flat out awesome, I use it constantly. As I've said 20 times, if you have an SC430, get this wicked feature right away. Do any other hardtops (or even softtop convertibles) have this as an option, even aftermarket? People walking by literally just stop and stare at the car when it's doing it's thing. I don't think it would get more attention if naked Playboy bunnies put the top up for me.
Cargo space, the M3 will win here IMHO. Rear sears are larger (real seats!), and trunk space has to be a good bit more with the top down. That being said, the SC430 really does have a ton of space. You'd be amazed at how much you can stuff in the back seats as long as it isn't human. You can easily fit a couple carry-on size suitcases with room to spare. And if you're taking a one or two week long trip, you can just keep the top up on the way there, fit some pretty large luggage in the trunk with the top up, bring the large suitcases inside at your destination, and cruise around in style with the top down the whole time.
But really, if you haven't driven these cars in a year, GO DRIVE THEM. Drive them both extensively. Don't let the dealers give you any smack about test driving, drive em, drive em hard, and drive em for a while with the top up and down. Go ahead and toss some luggage in there to see if it will fit! You're droppin' $60k on a car here, don't mess around.
The interior on the lexus is much much better than the M3, and the touchscreen nav system is lightyears ahead. The BMW's new DVD based nav is 'ok', but it's really slow to enter data by twirling a ****, it's not as fast or easy to use as the Lexus system, but it's superb compared to their old horrid CD based system.
I've just installed a Tein CS coilover kit on my SC430, and handling is much better, but the M3 will still win anyday of the week, it's a total drivers car and intimately connected with the road. Yes, I could make my SC430 handle like that, I could've gone with the Tein Flex kit and made the suspension really stiff, but I prefer the comfort level I have with the handling I have now. BMWs engineers are simply magicians, great ride, great handling, realitively low road noise for the level of handling.
Have you considered the new AMG SLK 55? I would assume not with your recent Mercedes experience, and it's luggage space. How about the Cadillac XLR? It's a superb looking car, and they're finally kicking up the production numbers on them so the price will drop below MSRP. But it doesn't have rear seats and is REALLY low on luggage space. The interior on it is not quite as nice, but it has a superb nav system, XM radio option, adaptive cruise control, realtime controllable magnetic suspension, HUD, and a VERY decent soundsystem (it's Bose, but it's actually quite good, the Lexus ML system rocks it's nads though).
Ok, I've rambled enough. The M3 is awesome. Drivers car all the way. The SC430 has far more luxury, is quieter, better soundsystem, better nav, better service, better reliability, smoother shifting, less power, less fun to drive, poorer handling. I can't slam the M3, BMW makes a wicked driver's car. I wish there were an 'M' SC430!
Last edited by Dozer42; 03-29-04 at 11:33 AM.
03-29-04, 12:23 PM
#11
i agree with Dozer42, the m3 is purely a driver's car, whereas the sc430 is a luxury cruiser. it's a very different choice. so i think you should really look into what you want to get first. i have driven both cars, and teh m3 is super fast and incredible handling (the sc430 wont' be able to match at all), but it's loud and ride was stiff. the sc430 you can't hear it run at all, very comfortable
and in terms of trunk space, the sc430 is just funny
and in terms of trunk space, the sc430 is just funny
03-29-04, 01:08 PM
#12
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Very valid points gentleman and you are NOT making this decision easy. I was just out in Vegas and went to the Auto Mall to look at cars. This place had every car maker around... amazing. Anyways.. I asked to test drive to M3 and her said sure... but only around the block! HAHA. I was like yeh.. ok we'll see ya. I sware what do these people thinking? I know I am young but I was dressed professionaly and clearly knew what I was talking about. On another note re: back seat... I hate being a taxi service all the time but there are events where having 2 people in the backseat is nice. Is it safe to say that the M3 would win in this case?
-A.T.
-A.T.
03-29-04, 05:40 PM
#14
Originally posted by ATWardIV
Very valid points gentleman and you are NOT making this decision easy. I was just out in Vegas and went to the Auto Mall to look at cars. This place had every car maker around... amazing. Anyways.. I asked to test drive to M3 and her said sure... but only around the block! HAHA. I was like yeh.. ok we'll see ya. I sware what do these people thinking? I know I am young but I was dressed professionaly and clearly knew what I was talking about. On another note re: back seat... I hate being a taxi service all the time but there are events where having 2 people in the backseat is nice. Is it safe to say that the M3 would win in this case?
-A.T.
Very valid points gentleman and you are NOT making this decision easy. I was just out in Vegas and went to the Auto Mall to look at cars. This place had every car maker around... amazing. Anyways.. I asked to test drive to M3 and her said sure... but only around the block! HAHA. I was like yeh.. ok we'll see ya. I sware what do these people thinking? I know I am young but I was dressed professionaly and clearly knew what I was talking about. On another note re: back seat... I hate being a taxi service all the time but there are events where having 2 people in the backseat is nice. Is it safe to say that the M3 would win in this case?
-A.T.
and about the test drive, that's all so bimmer... i went drive the m3 and they didn't even allow me. they got my finger...
03-29-04, 06:33 PM
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I just don't understand the mentality of these sales guys. I cannot walk 5 feet to the door of my Lexus showroom without someone greeting me and asking me how they can help. Furthermore, when I want to test-drive a car they are more then willing to toss me the keys without question. When I visit ANY BMW showroom it takes 5-10 mins just to get attention from some flunkie let alone a sales person. When you are in the market for anything that costs this much who wouldn't want to test-drive it? The guy at the BMW dealer in Vegas looked at me like I had 15 heads when I asked to drive one. Not quite my mentality but then again I don't belong to their club... yet. Maybe I need to learn the secret handshake or something. Thanks for all the input fellas it just looks like the M3 better meets my needs. Best wishes and I'll be sure to check back and let you all know what happens to my lemon law case and new car.
-A.T.
-A.T.