tfischer

I've enjoyed my SC430 for over four years now.

Pull my finger!

spwolf

so you think SC might get new model soon? Keep in mind that 2 years in minimum after an refresh, and also that Toyota just introduced SC430 in Japan - they would not do so if they tought of doing an new model sometimes next year. I would not be too worried about 4.3 being done just for the SC430, it is not an issue either.

Who knows what they will do with next SC, this year Toyota simplified their lineup slightly, accross the world, so they would have space for new models. Quite few models were dropped, so they could focus on bigger sellers and new comers. With that in mind, I wouldnt think there would be more SC versions, but then again Lexus is trying to improve themselves so who knows? If they do, they would do it for image and not profit, which is a bit unusual in their case..

Although we should not limit ourselves to US market only, when I think of US market, I kind of always limit number of models Toyota does however Toyota is doing well in Europe to adopt to European trends of offering various different models/equipment/engines. Or just look at Japan and how many different Toyota's are sold there - for example, corolla in Europe has 5 different engines, and 2 different automatics and... 4 different bodies (3 door, 5 door, sedan and wagon). How many different models leave the factory? 60-70 at least. We even now see greater variety in equipment models - which is a bit unusual for Toyota, but they have listened to their dealers. So it obviously can not be that hard and plants are made to be flexible. Compare it to US Corolla that sells 2x as much and yet offers maybe 15 configurations only.

Why not do the same in US? Because they dont really need to since US market does preffer simplicity. But if they engineer next SC for an easy drop of hybrid system from LS or GS, why the heck not?

I think the biggest problem would be that so many new models are coming, I am not sure how much time will they spend with low volume models. Big plus is that Lexus now got their own design and engineering center so they will be able to focus on themselves a bit better - with that thought, keep in mind that Toyota is really good with affordably producing niche vehicles.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i think it depends on how lexus sees the sc. if they want the sc to take on the performance cruiser and go head to head with the sl, then yes, sc600h. but if they want to keep the car as is as luxury cruiser, then i don't see the point. especially maybe they will put the lf-a in as the real performance beast

camillian

Yes, but why not go after the SL. offer both models sc430 and sc600. All they have to do is drop in a more powerfull engine which they will make for the LS anyway, tighten up the suspension and change the badgeing on the car to read SC600. The sc430 and sc600 will look the same. So basically it won't cost them a fraction as much as it would to say release a new model. it is just marketing. I think it is a question of where does Lexus want to go and can they compete with BMW and MB in the performance and handleing department. Right now they can't compete or even come close in those departments as we know from other threads. Ok they don't compete because they don't want to compete maybe, or I think they are studying and researching this sector as we speak and performance will be their next target like luxury was up until now. The Japanese were never the first out of the starting gate. They always studied the competion they had in each market very carefully and then conquered. Image is life or death in this business and you have one chance at a first impression. So far the japanese have been perfect since coming into the North american market in the 70's.
Anyway they will have to now focus on performance because all auto makers like bmw, mb, audi and even INFINITI (the first japanese to start focusing on performance in there ENTIRE line up) are headed in the performance direction.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

yup it's a question on where lexus want to head, however, i would hate to see if lexus is trying to use one car to fight all the battles. look at mb, they have the slk, clk, and the sl. lexus have ONE, sc. the IS will have convertible (or assume so), so it can probably fight with the slk (imho the clk is not in the same league as the IS, although it's based on the c class). so that means the sc should face the clk.

what i am saying is, lexus should definitely have a car to face the sl, but not sure if the sc is a good choice, especially how the car is marketed now as a luxury cruiser. as a luxury car it's one damn fine car, but anything associated with performance, i really doubt about the sc.

1) the car isn't as fast as what they want
2) handling is not even close to the sl

so imho, it would be good if the sc is continued to be made to compete in its class, and lexus made something else, maybe with the super car, to compete or even destroy the sl. look at the price, the sl500 is around 100k, and that's also the price tag we "heard" for the lf-a. i think that's a good matchup.

right now, lexus is having the sc as their premium coupe flagship, but to me i think that can be changed (or will be?)

Gojirra99

I'm all for Lexus to have more 2 door models to fight the battles, but even if the SC is to be the model primarily to face the CLK, the CLK has more than one engine choice especially the CLK55, so I think the SC should also have a higher performance version(with a V10 ) on top of the SC460.

Besides, the SC is factually in a higher class than the C class based CLK, & is more luxurious in some ways even than the SL.

As I said, if they were to go ahead with the LF-A with the V10, I see no compelling reason they should not use it in the SC as well. The LF-A & the SC can have very different characteristics while still sharing the V-10 engine.

I actually don't think the LF-A is an SL competitor. The SL in a strict sense is still not a true track car even with it's most powerful & sportiest AMG versions, they are too heavy and laden with luxury features, & my impression of the LF-A is that it should be closer in characteristics to the Z06/NSX etc. which are much lighter in weight & emphasize much heavier on sports than luxury.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

no doubt the mb lineup is a lot more ocmplete. about amg and m power, i actually take them away from my comparisons. to me those are different divisions. if lexus does not come out with a pure performance divisions that tunes their lineup of cars totally different from what they have no, i wouldn't even put the m power and amg in the picture.

what i am saying is, i am NOT putting up a gs450h, rx400h, or the future ls600h as a "performance division" car, no way it's not even close. m power and amg cars they are much more than just the engine. suspensions, braking, exhaust, tranny, etc... they are all different. that's what lexus should have.

to clarify, the way i see it, the ls600h is like what to compete with the s600 and 760il (both are not amg or m power). so by comparison, we don't see clk600 or 660ci out there. if you look at mb and bimmer, the v12 power is only reserved for the top class vehicles (sl600, s600, cl600, 760il).

now back to lexus. i completely agree that the sc430 is one step above the clk. however i wouldn't even put it as the same class as the sl. the sl is in a different league than the sc430 imho. the sc430 could have some better pros than the sl, but overall it's different (either from a price, market, performance point of view). and they are geared towards different market anyway.

to me, the sc430 is actually in a class of its own. seriously i tried but i couldn't find a car that's completely competition with it (price, performance, market). the slk is way below. the clk is one step below. the sl is over it and oriented differently. the 6 series is also nothing like the sc430, although i would say it's almost a sclose as it gets.

that's not a bad thing though imho, lexus did a damn good job in exploring the sc430 market, and a pretty successful one. but unless they do something dramatic (much more dramatic than how they took the previous performance oriented sc300/400 to the current luxury cruiser type sc430) if they want to bring the car upsale to fully compete with the sl.

i also understand what you mean about the lf-a. yes, even from all the news we have read so far, the lf-a is a true super car, direct competitors are nsx, z06, or even ferrari for that matter with it's much more aerodynamic body, super high performance v10, etc...

the reason i put it together with the sl was mostly based on my belief about the sc not up there with the sl, and lexus "need" something to go with the sl. on the current roadmap we all see, the lf-a is as close as i can find.

oh and also don't forget, imho (which i think is very true), if it's not an engine setup you see in the LS, you will not find it in the sc. in the future of the ls, we see ls460 and later ls600h, both use v8. we have heard about the ls500 later on, not sure if that's a v8 or v10. but before the ls get a v10, i honestly don't see the engine going into the sc. and even if it's thta a v10, i highly doubt it's going to be the same kind of aggressive setup (over 500hp) as that in the lf-a. if it's a de-tuned version of the v10 in the ls, than that will probably be the one used in the sc as well.

man i love these discussions. tons of good info here

spwolf

Well, to be honest, if Lexus really wants to "compete", next SC will be very similar car, just a bit lighter, and have SC350, SC460, and SC600h (450h?) variants...

Without V6, SC will never be sold more than hundreds in Europe. People here in general really dont care about spending too much for gas, even if they bought car for 100k... And why the heck not? Check this out - current SC350 would weight only 50-60 lbs more than IS350, so it would get almost indentical performance as IS350, and 30% better mpg...

So if they are serious about selling them, they would be more worried about bottom line than top end. Supposedly more upscale SL, has SL350 version in Europe with only 245hp. And not to mention CLK, which has 4cly petrol engine to start with, with only 163hp! And I wouldnt be suprised if diesel CLK was really good seller with 225hp. I really doubt CLK is an SC competitor in anything but price.

Gojirra99

The idea of Lexus making 6 cylinder models for the SC/LS makes me cringe. They should leave the low powered cars for Toyota's.
IMHO, Lexus should build higher end model variants that'll further solidify their image as a premium brand rather than trying to maximize sales by offering cheaper lower versions. Maybe in Europe, but definitely not here.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i am with you, andrew. for global sales that's a different story, since i am not in those country i wont' even commend. 6 cylinders could be yelling for life there in europe but i don't know

however here in the US, i definitely don't want to see v6 version of the sc. like andrew said, for high end cars, stay with the bigger engines which are what the US and canadian markets are asking for. that's why you don't see the sl350 and s350 here in the US. imho lexus made a very smart move by just staying with sc430 and no sc300 (which they planned). it helped tremendously in keeping the status of the car

ST430

with the recent spy shots of the LF-A being a hardtop convertible, I'm more inclined then ever that Lexus is really starting to get serious about coupes in their lineup of cars. I would guess their future lineup would look something like:

LFA500 - V10 GT Hardtop GT Cruiser to compete with the 911 Cabriolet's, SL's of the world
SC460 - Priced and competes with with the 6 series, CLKs
IS350c - yes the entry coupe to roundout the lineup against the 3 series and Audi cabriolet's

The SC and IS would still be built off the same GS/IS platform affording Lexus much savings to keep pricing competitive.

Gojirra99

There was a coupe version before, this vert. version is quite recent, maybe they'll have 2 versions. Personally, I'd always pick a coupe over a heavier hardtop convertible if I want a real sports car.

ST430

originally when the LF-A concept debut, there was rampant speculation that the design was a RE/RWD care a la Porsche 911, because of the supposed radiator grills/fan in the rear (below the taillights). I thought the same because of it's rear biased profile, but now after Tokyo and the convertible spyshots, we finally see why there's so much trunk room there: hardtop placement. You may be right that there would be 2 versions, although this would be quite expensive route in manufacturing. The hardtop may be Toyco's answer to the Skyline GT-R, while the convertible to the SL500s of the world. Who knows for sure, but I'm just happy coupes are getting in the mix again. let's ust hope Toyco can throw in a proper 6-speed or SMT on one of the coupes....

Gojirra99

They recently made the S350 available in the USA (but not Canada), & I think the new S350 will also be available here again for the redesigned S class next year, & it will have close to the same hp (& I think performance) as the current S430.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

yeah i know, i was referring to mb's decision with the previous couple of yrs.

i dont know, i just think it's not a smart decision