Cross drilled rotors on ebay
03-24-10, 04:11 PM
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Cross drilled rotors on ebay
Has anyone bought cross drilled rotors or ceramic brakes from ebay, like lots of other products they seem pretty reasonable, I have had pretty good luck purchasing product off ebay but rotors and brakes i dunno. Any thoughts?
03-24-10, 05:05 PM
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Hmm just read this post in another forum maybe I should reconsider cross drilled rotors. What do you think guys? If this is a no no sry about that.
WHY Blank rotors are better than cross drilled and/or slotted
<<I'm posting this here too as well as the Tech. Misc. Forum because this really affects people in here the most and I care about your safety because I have seen too many people get hurt by negatively affecting their car via modification and I feel braking is a VERY important system for this.>>
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1437507
Ok I'm hearing a lot of conjecture, and people are STILL blowing money on ****ty rotors, so I will tell you all why blank rotors are better.
The reason for the creation of cross drilled rotors initially was to remove the "gasses" from the brake pads. HOWEVER, most of your modern brake pads (Axxis metal, AEM semi-ceramic) do NOT produce gasses when heating. This was on bad brake pads used in the 1950s and 1960s. Back then, asbestos was also used, and we dont use that either.
The other reason is so called heat dissapation. I don't have my physics and thermo books with me, but the logic is that the holes in the rotor are suppose to allow the brake pad to cool. So...air gets into the rotor from the inside of the vents. If you have a back rotor which is solid, air gets into these holes how? If your stopped, you are leaving air inside these holes sandwiched between the pads, thus creating air with a rising temperature. Its increasing in pressure from the heat, which I guess you "could" call a gas that would affect braking. So the cross drilled rotors do not remove any gasses formed by brake pads (because there are none created anymore) but could possibly inhibit the creation of "hot spots".
Cross drilled rotors have LESS contact area because of the holes.
But if the rotor is cooler, its better, right? Well no, because these rotors are not cooler. THe heat is generated from the pad/rotor contact. What removes heat the most effectively? When stopped or moving, the pad transfers heat into the rotor because its made of cast iron. the rotor has a lot of surface area and even vanes in it. But the little holes allow air in this surface contact, and you can transfer more heat into a solid big *** chunk of cast iron more than you can into the air. Don't believe me? Touch some steam at 150 degrees, then touch a piece of hot metal which is at 150 degrees. Which burns your hand? the metal. So let the heat transfer into the metal, because since it has so much more surface area, dissapates better.
Safety!!
Cross drilled rotors can crack! I have seen them!!
Even racing teams will reccomend AGAINST cross drilled rotors:
http://www.livermoreperformanc....html
Companies that sell cross drilled rotors that are redrilled may not be structurally sound. I have actually seen pictures of rear Integra rotors that have had hairline cracks turn into the rotor actually breaking apart!
Do your homework. Even Porsche and Ferrari will admit that the cross drilled rotors they use are for looks. So if you are one of those kids who thinks the little holes look cool, get a name brand drilled rotor like Ferrari does. The REASON Ferrari's 'holed' rotors are alright to use is because they are CAST with the holes in them, so they are not actually drilled into cast iron rotors. Cheap drilled rotors are not safe, and even the good ones are not necessary. Why do Ferrari do it? People THINK they want it, and it sells. If you don't believe me, go into the business world. You will learn that pretty soon, you can sell utter **** if people THINK its better.
Information I gathered from http://www.pdm-racing.com/prod....html
says:
"KVR Crossdrilled Rotors
Why should you upgrade to cross drilled rotors?
Simply stated, the function of any vehicles brake system is to stop the vehicle. This is accomplished by absorbing the kinetic energy stored in the moving vehicle, and converting it into heat. The friction caused by the brake pad rubbing on the rotor is the source of this heat. The more quickly and efficiently that heat can be absorbed and dissipated, the more quickly and efficiently the car will stop.
There are several contributing factors to this heat reduction. One of the most common sources of heat is from the gases produced by the bonding agents of the brake pad burning off. Under severe braking, this can actually produce a boundary layer of gas that pushes the pad away from the rotor, which can lead to excessive brake fade. The cross-drilled holes or slots in a rotor provide an escape path for these gasses (de-gassing or out-gassing are common terms), and allow the pad to stay in contact with the rotor. As well as de-gassing, cross drilling or slotting will provide better wet weather braking as water is swept through the holes, or down the slots.
A vented rotor can be viewed as an air fan. When in motion, the vents draw air from the center of the rotor outward. This air flow, over an increased internal surface area, effectively dissipates rotor heat. Cross drilling adds to this air flow, as well as providing additional rotor surface cooling. "
This company is just telling you that the rotors may be cooler, however they fail to mention that the holes really do create a more than substantial decrease in surface area, thus less braking, thus less heat created, thus the less heat CREATED will leave the rotors cooler, the holes barely do anything! Its the less braking lowering the temperature!
Slotted rotors-
Find me a company that uses stock slotted rotors. They remove brake dust, but if you study braking systems, you find that with modern cars, flat blank rotors and semi-ceramic pads, the brake dust causing the rotor to slip on it is almost non-existent. But the brake dust doesnt need all those lines. Notice how most front brake pads (and most back) have that line down the middle to give essentially two bite points. If OEM or racing companies found it to be a benefit, they would do it.
PROOF OF IT ALL:
Find me an F1 car as of now that uses cross drilled or slotted rotors.
They all use full ceramic rotors and ceramic pads. Are they drilled or slotted? No.
If they helped the fastest cars in the world, wouldn't they use them? Its basic calculations that show the lack in surface area does not make up for the possible loss in temperarure. They use brake cooling air ducts insted.
BIG BRAKE KITS:
Some have asked if the big brake kits are worth it. This is sort of a relative question, but the simple answer is no. Regarding the big ones with drilled rotors, if you know that they are cast that way, at least they wont crack. I will still advice against them.
In terms of a big brake kit, I have seen some for Civic DX models. Civics have the small pad, small caliper, and a 9.5" rotor. The big rotors are 12" in diameter, ok so the overall diameter is close to that of an Acura RL (1999). But the sweeping area (the area that the pad can grab) is still the same if they use the same caliper and same pad. If you have the same pad and caliper, you are using the same rotor surface, just farther out, so it will increase braking from stock. However, if you were to change knuckles, etc, and get Acura RL caliper (larger piston than your civic DX piston), RL pads (much bigger and taller), and RL rotors 11.8" but much more surface area is touched, then you have a better brake setup because you have OEM parts, and a better grip on more area of the rotor. The downfall is added weight (since big brake kits are usually 2 piece and lighter) but the benefit is that you have so much more stopping. Ok, so the big brake kit will have less unsprung and rotational mass (so a little better accelleration but less braking), but they tend to run over a grand, and you can use OEM parts to build a better setup for half that.
IN CONCLUSION:
Don't buy slotted or cross drilled rotors, blank are better, and stop better. Physics people, get me my formulas and help me out here.
If you must get rotors with designs on them, get the slotted ones by a good company, and DON'T get blank rotors redrilled with little holes all over them. IF you absolutly must have the rotors with holes cause you like em, get them from a company that casts the rotors like that. I have seen rotors break and this is for your safety!
REMEMBER......
Your car will only stop as fast as your tires will allow. All the braking in the world wont work if your tires are bald and on ice!!
WHY Blank rotors are better than cross drilled and/or slotted
<<I'm posting this here too as well as the Tech. Misc. Forum because this really affects people in here the most and I care about your safety because I have seen too many people get hurt by negatively affecting their car via modification and I feel braking is a VERY important system for this.>>
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1437507
Ok I'm hearing a lot of conjecture, and people are STILL blowing money on ****ty rotors, so I will tell you all why blank rotors are better.
The reason for the creation of cross drilled rotors initially was to remove the "gasses" from the brake pads. HOWEVER, most of your modern brake pads (Axxis metal, AEM semi-ceramic) do NOT produce gasses when heating. This was on bad brake pads used in the 1950s and 1960s. Back then, asbestos was also used, and we dont use that either.
The other reason is so called heat dissapation. I don't have my physics and thermo books with me, but the logic is that the holes in the rotor are suppose to allow the brake pad to cool. So...air gets into the rotor from the inside of the vents. If you have a back rotor which is solid, air gets into these holes how? If your stopped, you are leaving air inside these holes sandwiched between the pads, thus creating air with a rising temperature. Its increasing in pressure from the heat, which I guess you "could" call a gas that would affect braking. So the cross drilled rotors do not remove any gasses formed by brake pads (because there are none created anymore) but could possibly inhibit the creation of "hot spots".
Cross drilled rotors have LESS contact area because of the holes.
But if the rotor is cooler, its better, right? Well no, because these rotors are not cooler. THe heat is generated from the pad/rotor contact. What removes heat the most effectively? When stopped or moving, the pad transfers heat into the rotor because its made of cast iron. the rotor has a lot of surface area and even vanes in it. But the little holes allow air in this surface contact, and you can transfer more heat into a solid big *** chunk of cast iron more than you can into the air. Don't believe me? Touch some steam at 150 degrees, then touch a piece of hot metal which is at 150 degrees. Which burns your hand? the metal. So let the heat transfer into the metal, because since it has so much more surface area, dissapates better.
Safety!!
Cross drilled rotors can crack! I have seen them!!
Even racing teams will reccomend AGAINST cross drilled rotors:
http://www.livermoreperformanc....html
Companies that sell cross drilled rotors that are redrilled may not be structurally sound. I have actually seen pictures of rear Integra rotors that have had hairline cracks turn into the rotor actually breaking apart!
Do your homework. Even Porsche and Ferrari will admit that the cross drilled rotors they use are for looks. So if you are one of those kids who thinks the little holes look cool, get a name brand drilled rotor like Ferrari does. The REASON Ferrari's 'holed' rotors are alright to use is because they are CAST with the holes in them, so they are not actually drilled into cast iron rotors. Cheap drilled rotors are not safe, and even the good ones are not necessary. Why do Ferrari do it? People THINK they want it, and it sells. If you don't believe me, go into the business world. You will learn that pretty soon, you can sell utter **** if people THINK its better.
Information I gathered from http://www.pdm-racing.com/prod....html
says:
"KVR Crossdrilled Rotors
Why should you upgrade to cross drilled rotors?
Simply stated, the function of any vehicles brake system is to stop the vehicle. This is accomplished by absorbing the kinetic energy stored in the moving vehicle, and converting it into heat. The friction caused by the brake pad rubbing on the rotor is the source of this heat. The more quickly and efficiently that heat can be absorbed and dissipated, the more quickly and efficiently the car will stop.
There are several contributing factors to this heat reduction. One of the most common sources of heat is from the gases produced by the bonding agents of the brake pad burning off. Under severe braking, this can actually produce a boundary layer of gas that pushes the pad away from the rotor, which can lead to excessive brake fade. The cross-drilled holes or slots in a rotor provide an escape path for these gasses (de-gassing or out-gassing are common terms), and allow the pad to stay in contact with the rotor. As well as de-gassing, cross drilling or slotting will provide better wet weather braking as water is swept through the holes, or down the slots.
A vented rotor can be viewed as an air fan. When in motion, the vents draw air from the center of the rotor outward. This air flow, over an increased internal surface area, effectively dissipates rotor heat. Cross drilling adds to this air flow, as well as providing additional rotor surface cooling. "
This company is just telling you that the rotors may be cooler, however they fail to mention that the holes really do create a more than substantial decrease in surface area, thus less braking, thus less heat created, thus the less heat CREATED will leave the rotors cooler, the holes barely do anything! Its the less braking lowering the temperature!
Slotted rotors-
Find me a company that uses stock slotted rotors. They remove brake dust, but if you study braking systems, you find that with modern cars, flat blank rotors and semi-ceramic pads, the brake dust causing the rotor to slip on it is almost non-existent. But the brake dust doesnt need all those lines. Notice how most front brake pads (and most back) have that line down the middle to give essentially two bite points. If OEM or racing companies found it to be a benefit, they would do it.
PROOF OF IT ALL:
Find me an F1 car as of now that uses cross drilled or slotted rotors.
They all use full ceramic rotors and ceramic pads. Are they drilled or slotted? No.
If they helped the fastest cars in the world, wouldn't they use them? Its basic calculations that show the lack in surface area does not make up for the possible loss in temperarure. They use brake cooling air ducts insted.
BIG BRAKE KITS:
Some have asked if the big brake kits are worth it. This is sort of a relative question, but the simple answer is no. Regarding the big ones with drilled rotors, if you know that they are cast that way, at least they wont crack. I will still advice against them.
In terms of a big brake kit, I have seen some for Civic DX models. Civics have the small pad, small caliper, and a 9.5" rotor. The big rotors are 12" in diameter, ok so the overall diameter is close to that of an Acura RL (1999). But the sweeping area (the area that the pad can grab) is still the same if they use the same caliper and same pad. If you have the same pad and caliper, you are using the same rotor surface, just farther out, so it will increase braking from stock. However, if you were to change knuckles, etc, and get Acura RL caliper (larger piston than your civic DX piston), RL pads (much bigger and taller), and RL rotors 11.8" but much more surface area is touched, then you have a better brake setup because you have OEM parts, and a better grip on more area of the rotor. The downfall is added weight (since big brake kits are usually 2 piece and lighter) but the benefit is that you have so much more stopping. Ok, so the big brake kit will have less unsprung and rotational mass (so a little better accelleration but less braking), but they tend to run over a grand, and you can use OEM parts to build a better setup for half that.
IN CONCLUSION:
Don't buy slotted or cross drilled rotors, blank are better, and stop better. Physics people, get me my formulas and help me out here.
If you must get rotors with designs on them, get the slotted ones by a good company, and DON'T get blank rotors redrilled with little holes all over them. IF you absolutly must have the rotors with holes cause you like em, get them from a company that casts the rotors like that. I have seen rotors break and this is for your safety!
REMEMBER......
Your car will only stop as fast as your tires will allow. All the braking in the world wont work if your tires are bald and on ice!!
03-24-10, 05:12 PM
#3
yeah, do a search on here under the SC430 pages and you will find some healthy discussions of brembo rotors, cross drilled, etc. I remember getting the "vibe" that I would NOT go cross drilled or slotted or Brembo for that matter after reading other CLers experiences. Maybe more will chime in...try a search though just under SC430.
03-25-10, 01:12 AM
#5
I bought the cross-drilled brembo rotors front and back. Installed it in my car and notice the following:-
1- breaking power reduced by about 10%.
2- always there is a break pad smell when I stop the car.
3- the life of the break pad is increased. usally with OEM rotors I can drive up to 17K miles. After I installed the brembo rotors I drove a bout 20K and still the pads are OK.
Note: when I first installed the brembo roters, the feeling was good and I felt that the breaks are better. However after driving for a few thousand miles I noticed the above points. I think it was sichology feeling becouse the rotors were new at the begining and I have read a lot that drilled rotors are better I felt that they were butter!!
1- breaking power reduced by about 10%.
2- always there is a break pad smell when I stop the car.
3- the life of the break pad is increased. usally with OEM rotors I can drive up to 17K miles. After I installed the brembo rotors I drove a bout 20K and still the pads are OK.
Note: when I first installed the brembo roters, the feeling was good and I felt that the breaks are better. However after driving for a few thousand miles I noticed the above points. I think it was sichology feeling becouse the rotors were new at the begining and I have read a lot that drilled rotors are better I felt that they were butter!!
03-25-10, 05:44 AM
#6
Lexus Test Driver
I have bought sets of eBay cross drilled rotors. One set of 4 on my 1994 LS400 and one set of 2 Front on my 05 SC430. I noticed that braking power actually increased for me. The pedal feel was more responsive and I felt more confident in my braking. Of course, I did a full brake system overhaul including brake flush, new pads along with the rotors so it is plausible to believe it could be all of that causing the better feel. The rotors on my LS400 have lasted around 8 years now so longevity is great. There is a SLIGHTLY louder "ceramic scratching" sound emitting from the front rotors of my SC. Not really a big deal, but could be annoying to others.
All in all, in my book they are awesome and I would definitely buy them again for my vehicles. But judging by other responses they could be hit or miss. For the money paid on eBay, it is worth trying since they are affordable. If you have a problem, just switch back to OEM. That's my two cents. GL!
All in all, in my book they are awesome and I would definitely buy them again for my vehicles. But judging by other responses they could be hit or miss. For the money paid on eBay, it is worth trying since they are affordable. If you have a problem, just switch back to OEM. That's my two cents. GL!
03-25-10, 08:40 AM
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I have a set for R1 Concepts: they had worked great on a Honda Accord I used to have, so I decided to give them a try on my SC. Unfotunately, there was a noticeable decrease in breaking power on the SC. They also have a tendency to squeal at random times.
They looks great but do not work nearly as well as stock rotors and pads. If I had to do it over again, I would stick with stock or BBK.
They looks great but do not work nearly as well as stock rotors and pads. If I had to do it over again, I would stick with stock or BBK.
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