Water Pump Squeal
12-31-13, 11:20 AM
#1
Water Pump Squeal
Ok so here's a new question for the pros. I get a small "squeal" from the engine usually only when it's cold out, and have narrowed it down to the water pump pulley (2nd pulley down from the top). I put a drop or two of WD-40 on the "rod" that runs through the pulley and it stops. I know not to put anything on the belt to avoid contamination but it seems to me that it's the metal bolt that keeps the pulley in place. I stopped by an O'Reilly and had the tech have a look because I was going to try a more viscous grease. He thinks that it's either the pump is starting to fail or that the pulley could have moved out of place. He said I should remove the belt and tug on the pulley. If it moves then it's loose and needs to be lubed and tightened. If it doesn't then it's a water pump replacement. What do you all think? I don't want to drop a ton of money as it truly only squeals when it's cold, and unfortunately I'm thinking Chicago's gonna have a cold one this year even though after the engine heats up it's goes away. If you have a guess to the problem, what do you think replacement will run me. I'm only at 30,000 miles, and has been garaged until recently so I don't think it's a belt change or pump failure yet. Anyway, let me know what you all think. Thanks in advance.
12-31-13, 12:23 PM
#2
Ok so here's a new question for the pros. I get a small "squeal" from the engine usually only when it's cold out, and have narrowed it down to the water pump pulley (2nd pulley down from the top). I put a drop or two of WD-40 on the "rod" that runs through the pulley and it stops. I know not to put anything on the belt to avoid contamination but it seems to me that it's the metal bolt that keeps the pulley in place. I stopped by an O'Reilly and had the tech have a look because I was going to try a more viscous grease. He thinks that it's either the pump is starting to fail or that the pulley could have moved out of place. He said I should remove the belt and tug on the pulley. If it moves then it's loose and needs to be lubed and tightened. If it doesn't then it's a water pump replacement. What do you all think? I don't want to drop a ton of money as it truly only squeals when it's cold, and unfortunately I'm thinking Chicago's gonna have a cold one this year even though after the engine heats up it's goes away. If you have a guess to the problem, what do you think replacement will run me. I'm only at 30,000 miles, and has been garaged until recently so I don't think it's a belt change or pump failure yet. Anyway, let me know what you all think. Thanks in advance.
The water pump is internal to the engine, is driven by the timing belt and not visible from the outside of the engine (unlike most cars where the water pump is driven from a serpentine belt or is electric on some new model cars and not driven by a belt). On the SC430 quite a bit of the front of the engine needs to be removed to expose the water pump, which should always be changed when the timing belt is changed. If your water pump is making noise it is critical that you address the issue as prior to seizing the water pump will commonly make noise. If the water pump seizes it will break the timing belt, which in turn allows the camshafts to run freely and because it is an interference engine will inevitably put one or more valves in the same space as one of the pistons, resulting in valves being smashed. Figure a $3k to $4k repair bill minimum. But, again, the water pump pulley is not visible from the outside of the engine.
I think you are referring to the serpentine belt (Lexus calls it the fan and generator V belt). It is driven by the crankshaft pulley and drives the power steering pump, alternator (Lexus calls it a generator), and AC compressor. Also in the belt path are two idler pulleys to guide the belt and enable the belt to change direction as well as the tensioner which as its name implies, allows the belt to be set to the proper tension.
From your description it sounds like either the tensioner or idler pulley no. 1 are making noise. Given the year of your car and high mileage the bearing in either one could be failing. Replacement is not difficult and could prevent you from being stranded, as once the idler or tensioner pulley bearing freezes the serpentine belt typically breaks leaving you stranded on the road. Plan on putting a new serpentine belt on when you do the repair. TIP: Mark the rotational direction of the old belt and store it in your trunk as a back up. If you ever break one on the road you won't have to wait to get a replacement belt which can be difficult out in the boonies.
12-31-13, 03:42 PM
#3
Has your timing belt ever been changed? Or the water pump ever been replaced? Even though you have only 30,000 miles on the engine, it is 12 years old. You're asking for trouble IF the timing belt has not been changed yet. Age, in spite of miles, plays a significant role here.
01-01-14, 03:45 AM
#4
Ok so here's a new question for the pros. I get a small "squeal" from the engine usually only when it's cold out, and have narrowed it down to the water pump pulley (2nd pulley down from the top). I put a drop or two of WD-40 on the "rod" that runs through the pulley and it stops. I know not to put anything on the belt to avoid contamination but it seems to me that it's the metal bolt that keeps the pulley in place. I stopped by an O'Reilly and had the tech have a look because I was going to try a more viscous grease. He thinks that it's either the pump is starting to fail or that the pulley could have moved out of place. He said I should remove the belt and tug on the pulley. If it moves then it's loose and needs to be lubed and tightened. If it doesn't then it's a water pump replacement. What do you all think? I don't want to drop a ton of money as it truly only squeals when it's cold, and unfortunately I'm thinking Chicago's gonna have a cold one this year even though after the engine heats up it's goes away. If you have a guess to the problem, what do you think replacement will run me. I'm only at 30,000 miles, and has been garaged until recently so I don't think it's a belt change or pump failure yet. Anyway, let me know what you all think. Thanks in advance.
Also with the second poster - our cars have both an age and a mileage requirement for timing belt/water pump replacement. I am only at 66k miles for my 2005 but I hit the 9 year mark so I recently did the following Dec 19:
Timing belt/water pump/pulleys/gaskets.
Also replaced my OEM serpentine with a Gatorback.
Car is humming perfectly now and I will see in a week after I use the car again if there is a squeal. I hope not. But from what I have heard of my engine note over the last two weeks, it definitely sounds better than before. Something to do with new belts in place I guess.
Pls get with a Lexus tech and check if you need a replacement for the water pump/timing belt. Your age requirement is probably met.
01-01-14, 09:58 AM
#5
ShawnOk,
Thanks for this post, I realized where my whining was coming from.
Timing Belt replacement aside (which I have to do soon), I recently diagnosed that I had squeaking coming from the 2 Idlers. Just like you it was apparent on cold starts. Then after some minutes of driving, they go away. I knew the whining was coming from the Idlers.
I used a mechanic's stethoscope and found more noise on Idler # 2, instead of Idler # 1. So I bought Idler # 2. The Idler # 2 came in yesterday with some more goodies from Sewell.
Last night, I replaced Idler # 2. Started the car cold and the noise was still there. Fail! Scratching my head...
THEN this post!
After reading this post, I removed my Idler # 1 and found that is is starting to fail, no play but it has a faint whine meaning the bearings are starting to go.
I have cleaned the Idlers and dropped turbine oil and it seemed to quiet it down. I will be re-installing it shortly and I expect the whining to die down a bit. I will be getting a new one.
Lesson learned:
To determine bearing failure, it is best to remove the idler and check. Bearing check is easy. They are supposed to be in place solid and not whine of make a noise when turned.
I now have a new Idler Pulley # 2. Which is not bad since someday it too will fail. Now I have to get an Idler Pulley # 1. Not bad price, both are $58 each with our CL discount, list is $100+.
So, ShawnOk, I recommend that you replace your Pulley Idler # 1.
Go to Sewel and open up the Water Pump Schematic (under Engine) and you will see 2 idlers. One with the V rib (Idler # 2) and one with the plain (Idler # 1).
Replacement is easy on mine because I have a CAI, it is very accessible. In your case the air box will probably be taken out. Keep in mind that this Idler is bolted left hand. Since it is a "tensioner" idler, to remove it you have to turn clockwise. Bolt will come off easy. return your belt the same way using the schematic on the hood.
Learn from my misstep, your gain.
Good luck and thanks for the post.
Thanks for this post, I realized where my whining was coming from.
Timing Belt replacement aside (which I have to do soon), I recently diagnosed that I had squeaking coming from the 2 Idlers. Just like you it was apparent on cold starts. Then after some minutes of driving, they go away. I knew the whining was coming from the Idlers.
I used a mechanic's stethoscope and found more noise on Idler # 2, instead of Idler # 1. So I bought Idler # 2. The Idler # 2 came in yesterday with some more goodies from Sewell.
Last night, I replaced Idler # 2. Started the car cold and the noise was still there. Fail! Scratching my head...
THEN this post!
After reading this post, I removed my Idler # 1 and found that is is starting to fail, no play but it has a faint whine meaning the bearings are starting to go.
I have cleaned the Idlers and dropped turbine oil and it seemed to quiet it down. I will be re-installing it shortly and I expect the whining to die down a bit. I will be getting a new one.
Lesson learned:
To determine bearing failure, it is best to remove the idler and check. Bearing check is easy. They are supposed to be in place solid and not whine of make a noise when turned.
I now have a new Idler Pulley # 2. Which is not bad since someday it too will fail. Now I have to get an Idler Pulley # 1. Not bad price, both are $58 each with our CL discount, list is $100+.
So, ShawnOk, I recommend that you replace your Pulley Idler # 1.
Go to Sewel and open up the Water Pump Schematic (under Engine) and you will see 2 idlers. One with the V rib (Idler # 2) and one with the plain (Idler # 1).
Replacement is easy on mine because I have a CAI, it is very accessible. In your case the air box will probably be taken out. Keep in mind that this Idler is bolted left hand. Since it is a "tensioner" idler, to remove it you have to turn clockwise. Bolt will come off easy. return your belt the same way using the schematic on the hood.
Learn from my misstep, your gain.
Good luck and thanks for the post.
01-01-14, 10:00 AM
#6
Idler # 1 is 16603 (Plain), note that Idler # 2 is 16604 (V-rib). You want the Plain, used for the tensioner.
01-01-14, 10:55 AM
#7
Regarding timing belt replacement:
It is unheard of for a timing belt on a SC430 to break on its own. The water pump or an idler bearing seizes and breaks the belt.
Make sure when the timing belt service is done that ALL components including the timing belt, water pump, tensioner and all idlers are changed. DO NOT let any bone-headed mechanic convince you that the water pump can be examined and if deemed good left in the engine. The major cost of this service is the labor to take everything off the front of the engine to get to the timing belt. The component costs are insignificant compared to the labor. The chance of the water pump lasting 180K miles if the original one is left on the engine during the 90K timing belt service is infinitesimally small, and is then a time bomb waiting to go off. CHANGE ALL OF THE COMPONENTS.
And regarding water pump health, change your coolant every two years regardless of mileage. Additives in the coolant lubricate the internals of the water pump and these additives are lost over time. Running the water pump without these additives can greatly shorten its life.
When the water pump seizes on most cars the serpentine belt is taken out, your engine overheating light comes on, you turn off the engine and coast to the side of the road, have the car towed, replace the pump and belt and away you go. On the SC430 when the timing belt breaks it is always big dollars. Think of changing your coolant as maintaining the health of your timing belt and avoiding $4k in repairs.
It is unheard of for a timing belt on a SC430 to break on its own. The water pump or an idler bearing seizes and breaks the belt.
Make sure when the timing belt service is done that ALL components including the timing belt, water pump, tensioner and all idlers are changed. DO NOT let any bone-headed mechanic convince you that the water pump can be examined and if deemed good left in the engine. The major cost of this service is the labor to take everything off the front of the engine to get to the timing belt. The component costs are insignificant compared to the labor. The chance of the water pump lasting 180K miles if the original one is left on the engine during the 90K timing belt service is infinitesimally small, and is then a time bomb waiting to go off. CHANGE ALL OF THE COMPONENTS.
And regarding water pump health, change your coolant every two years regardless of mileage. Additives in the coolant lubricate the internals of the water pump and these additives are lost over time. Running the water pump without these additives can greatly shorten its life.
When the water pump seizes on most cars the serpentine belt is taken out, your engine overheating light comes on, you turn off the engine and coast to the side of the road, have the car towed, replace the pump and belt and away you go. On the SC430 when the timing belt breaks it is always big dollars. Think of changing your coolant as maintaining the health of your timing belt and avoiding $4k in repairs.
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01-06-14, 01:17 PM
#8
Ok so here's a new question for the pros. I get a small "squeal" from the engine usually only when it's cold out, and have narrowed it down to the water pump pulley (2nd pulley down from the top). I put a drop or two of WD-40 on the "rod" that runs through the pulley and it stops. I know not to put anything on the belt to avoid contamination but it seems to me that it's the metal bolt that keeps the pulley in place. I stopped by an O'Reilly and had the tech have a look because I was going to try a more viscous grease. He thinks that it's either the pump is starting to fail or that the pulley could have moved out of place. He said I should remove the belt and tug on the pulley. If it moves then it's loose and needs to be lubed and tightened. If it doesn't then it's a water pump replacement. What do you all think? I don't want to drop a ton of money as it truly only squeals when it's cold, and unfortunately I'm thinking Chicago's gonna have a cold one this year even though after the engine heats up it's goes away. If you have a guess to the problem, what do you think replacement will run me. I'm only at 30,000 miles, and has been garaged until recently so I don't think it's a belt change or pump failure yet. Anyway, let me know what you all think. Thanks in advance.
I am so ready to do my belt...
01-06-14, 03:01 PM
#9
Thanks to everyone for the responses and suggestions! I haven't gotten around to taking my car into Lexus but plan on doing so soon so they can give me an estimate and then decide if I'd rather have a pro do it or take my chances as DIY. Unfortunately, I'm in the Chicago 'burbs and we've got at least 8 inches of snow and -30 degree wind chills. Trying to avoid being out right now and I don't have any of my tools here. Once I know what the monetary damage will be, I will decide what route I will take. Luckily, I've gotten in the good graces of my service tech manager so hopefully they won't charge me for a diagnostic inspection. I will update this thread as more info comes available. Thanks for everyone's insight and suggestions. If anyone has any more to add, I would appreciate it. Thanks again
- Mdames, never changed any major mechanical components of the engine.
- OBP, thanks for the advice. Yeah understand age might be the culprit in my situation.
- SC43052, Good advice. I hope to get this problem out before anything seizes... including my heart.
- Mandyfig, how much did the Aisin kit run ya? Since you feel that it didn't help your sqeual, I'm not sure if it will help mine either. Sorry for your bad luck. I put a small drop of WD40 on the "rod" that runs through the pulley and instantly the squeal stops. Not sure what that means exactly. I will let you know what Lexus says.
- Mdames, never changed any major mechanical components of the engine.
- OBP, thanks for the advice. Yeah understand age might be the culprit in my situation.
- SC43052, Good advice. I hope to get this problem out before anything seizes... including my heart.
- Mandyfig, how much did the Aisin kit run ya? Since you feel that it didn't help your sqeual, I'm not sure if it will help mine either. Sorry for your bad luck. I put a small drop of WD40 on the "rod" that runs through the pulley and instantly the squeal stops. Not sure what that means exactly. I will let you know what Lexus says.
Last edited by ShawnOk; 01-06-14 at 03:06 PM.
01-06-14, 05:01 PM
#10
Thanks to everyone for the responses and suggestions! I haven't gotten around to taking my car into Lexus but plan on doing so soon so they can give me an estimate and then decide if I'd rather have a pro do it or take my chances as DIY. Unfortunately, I'm in the Chicago 'burbs and we've got at least 8 inches of snow and -30 degree wind chills. Trying to avoid being out right now and I don't have any of my tools here. Once I know what the monetary damage will be, I will decide what route I will take. Luckily, I've gotten in the good graces of my service tech manager so hopefully they won't charge me for a diagnostic inspection. I will update this thread as more info comes available. Thanks for everyone's insight and suggestions. If anyone has any more to add, I would appreciate it. Thanks again
- Mdames, never changed any major mechanical components of the engine.
- OBP, thanks for the advice. Yeah understand age might be the culprit in my situation.
- SC43052, Good advice. I hope to get this problem out before anything seizes... including my heart.
- Mandyfig, how much did the Aisin kit run ya? Since you feel that it didn't help your sqeual, I'm not sure if it will help mine either. Sorry for your bad luck. I put a small drop of WD40 on the "rod" that runs through the pulley and instantly the squeal stops. Not sure what that means exactly. I will let you know what Lexus says.
- Mdames, never changed any major mechanical components of the engine.
- OBP, thanks for the advice. Yeah understand age might be the culprit in my situation.
- SC43052, Good advice. I hope to get this problem out before anything seizes... including my heart.
- Mandyfig, how much did the Aisin kit run ya? Since you feel that it didn't help your sqeual, I'm not sure if it will help mine either. Sorry for your bad luck. I put a small drop of WD40 on the "rod" that runs through the pulley and instantly the squeal stops. Not sure what that means exactly. I will let you know what Lexus says.
Rest assured and sleep well that if the noise totally goes away with just WD40 then it is not your water pump. If you are game to roll up your sleeves we can walk you through the very easy change out of the pulley to put an end your present squealing.
And if you are ready for the water pump/timing belt service you may want to go to the dealer to get their quote for yucks and grins but when you are ready, buy the above mentioned kit and take it to either a respected Toyota or Lexus Indy or to a Toyota dealer, any of which will shave hundreds off the Lexus quote and who work on virtually that same engine doing timing belts all day long.
PS- I moved from Chi-town after 40 years of winters there to Scottsdale, AZ and have never regretted it.
Miss the great food and Symphony but not the weather.
Unseasonably cold everywhere, even here. Today we only reached 65!
I'm sorry. I know that was mean, but I couldn't help myself.
01-06-14, 05:54 PM
#11
Thanks to everyone for the responses and suggestions! I haven't gotten around to taking my car into Lexus but plan on doing so soon so they can give me an estimate and then decide if I'd rather have a pro do it or take my chances as DIY. Unfortunately, I'm in the Chicago 'burbs and we've got at least 8 inches of snow and -30 degree wind chills. Trying to avoid being out right now and I don't have any of my tools here. Once I know what the monetary damage will be, I will decide what route I will take. Luckily, I've gotten in the good graces of my service tech manager so hopefully they won't charge me for a diagnostic inspection. I will update this thread as more info comes available. Thanks for everyone's insight and suggestions. If anyone has any more to add, I would appreciate it. Thanks again
- Mdames, never changed any major mechanical components of the engine.
- OBP, thanks for the advice. Yeah understand age might be the culprit in my situation.
- SC43052, Good advice. I hope to get this problem out before anything seizes... including my heart.
- Mandyfig, how much did the Aisin kit run ya? Since you feel that it didn't help your sqeual, I'm not sure if it will help mine either. Sorry for your bad luck. I put a small drop of WD40 on the "rod" that runs through the pulley and instantly the squeal stops. Not sure what that means exactly. I will let you know what Lexus says.
- Mdames, never changed any major mechanical components of the engine.
- OBP, thanks for the advice. Yeah understand age might be the culprit in my situation.
- SC43052, Good advice. I hope to get this problem out before anything seizes... including my heart.
- Mandyfig, how much did the Aisin kit run ya? Since you feel that it didn't help your sqeual, I'm not sure if it will help mine either. Sorry for your bad luck. I put a small drop of WD40 on the "rod" that runs through the pulley and instantly the squeal stops. Not sure what that means exactly. I will let you know what Lexus says.
01-10-14, 08:28 PM
#12
So I've attached a photo and after a visit to the dealership they said that it could be a serpentine belt problem, a pulley problem, or a tensioner problem. They said since they were going to take apart most of the relevant items, I should replace the timing belt, water pump, gaskets, etc at the same time to avoid future problems. They quoted the entire job at $1135 including parts and labor. The photo with the red arrow is the culprit where the squeal occurs. I was informed that the water pump is actually interior to this area and basically "inside" the engine. After consulting a tech who exclusively works on Toyota and Lexus, the consensus was that it's only the serpentine belt that is giving me the squeal and thus will start with the small problem first and replace only the serpentine belt for $140. I will keep this thread posted with the results. Thanks for all the advice everyone!
01-10-14, 10:48 PM
#13
So I've attached a photo and after a visit to the dealership they said that it could be a serpentine belt problem, a pulley problem, or a tensioner problem. They said since they were going to take apart most of the relevant items, I should replace the timing belt, water pump, gaskets, etc at the same time to avoid future problems. They quoted the entire job at $1135 including parts and labor. The photo with the red arrow is the culprit where the squeal occurs. I was informed that the water pump is actually interior to this area and basically "inside" the engine. After consulting a tech who exclusively works on Toyota and Lexus, the consensus was that it's only the serpentine belt that is giving me the squeal and thus will start with the small problem first and replace only the serpentine belt for $140. I will keep this thread posted with the results. Thanks for all the advice everyone!
The serpentine belt costs about $17 and you could get ANY Independent mechanic to put it on for $25. It takes about 5 minutes.
But I have my doubts that it is the belt. Who ever replaces the belt needs to check the pulleys and idler or you could shortly be back where you started.
That quote to do the water pump timing belt and pulleys is high. Should be more $700-$800.
01-11-14, 04:02 AM
#14
Wow - dunno which Lexus dealer would let you have a water pump and timing belt service for 700-800. I did get it for 700 but at an independent mechanic. The dealer who quoted me said 1500+ including a bunch of probably extraneous inspections etc ... Was going to say to the OP that 1135 was not terrible for a dealer quote.
At this point, my squeaks on a cold day have gone - I did timing belt, water pump and serpentine.
At this point, my squeaks on a cold day have gone - I did timing belt, water pump and serpentine.
01-11-14, 06:40 AM
#15
Wow - dunno which Lexus dealer would let you have a water pump and timing belt service for 700-800. I did get it for 700 but at an independent mechanic. The dealer who quoted me said 1500+ including a bunch of probably extraneous inspections etc ... Was going to say to the OP that 1135 was not terrible for a dealer quote.
At this point, my squeaks on a cold day have gone - I did timing belt, water pump and serpentine.
At this point, my squeaks on a cold day have gone - I did timing belt, water pump and serpentine.
Absolutely, - no $tealer would do it for that.
In his third to the last sentence he said he is consulting an independent. I am coaching him so he doesn't think $1135 is a fair price from everyone.