Front Suspension Issues
11-12-15, 08:25 AM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Front Suspension Issues
I'm enjoying my "new-to-me" 2002 SC430 (purchased 2 months ago, 44K miles), but am starting to suspect that there is something not right with my front suspension.
The car had only been driven around 4K miles over the past 10 years, and has very low miles for the year; it is completely stock. After I bought it, I replaced the tires (10 year old tires that still had good tread) with new Michelins and rims (got rid of the Pie Plates in favor of the Lexus G-Spiders). I also updated all of the other maintenance to make the car "like new" (timing belt, water pump, pulleys, thermostat, etc.).
When I drive on very smooth roads, the ride is perfect, but when I hit bumps, I get a not-so-Lexus-like jiggle. Even my wife noticed how rough the car rides on imperfect roads. It definitely doesn't soak up the bumps serenely like I know it should. This is my third SC430, and the other two were much smoother and solid on rough roads.
I've read extensively on this forum about problems others have reported with bad Upper Control Arms, Lower Ball Joints, etc., but I am really surprised that my car would have problems in these areas with only 44K miles. Do the joints dry out and become problematic due to excessive lack of use?
I have an appointment with my trusted independent shop tomorrow to have the suspension checked out, but I'm unsure how easy it is to diagnose specific problems with Control Arms, Ball Joints, etc. Should I just bite the bullet and purchase the Upper Control Arms, Ball Joints, Tie-Rod Ends, etc. and have them changed under the assumption this is probably the cause of my jiggly front end?
From reading others' comments, it seems like Raybestos Pro or Moog Control Arms/Ball Joints are good aftermarket alternatives. I see the Upper Control Arms offered on Amazon for $110-140 each and the Ball Joint Assemblies available for around $40 each.
Any thoughts on how likely my problem is related to one of these parts? Any experience to share with Moog or Raybestos Pro suspension parts?
Looking forward to making my "new" SC430 ride like new! Thanks for any advice from the forum.
The car had only been driven around 4K miles over the past 10 years, and has very low miles for the year; it is completely stock. After I bought it, I replaced the tires (10 year old tires that still had good tread) with new Michelins and rims (got rid of the Pie Plates in favor of the Lexus G-Spiders). I also updated all of the other maintenance to make the car "like new" (timing belt, water pump, pulleys, thermostat, etc.).
When I drive on very smooth roads, the ride is perfect, but when I hit bumps, I get a not-so-Lexus-like jiggle. Even my wife noticed how rough the car rides on imperfect roads. It definitely doesn't soak up the bumps serenely like I know it should. This is my third SC430, and the other two were much smoother and solid on rough roads.
I've read extensively on this forum about problems others have reported with bad Upper Control Arms, Lower Ball Joints, etc., but I am really surprised that my car would have problems in these areas with only 44K miles. Do the joints dry out and become problematic due to excessive lack of use?
I have an appointment with my trusted independent shop tomorrow to have the suspension checked out, but I'm unsure how easy it is to diagnose specific problems with Control Arms, Ball Joints, etc. Should I just bite the bullet and purchase the Upper Control Arms, Ball Joints, Tie-Rod Ends, etc. and have them changed under the assumption this is probably the cause of my jiggly front end?
From reading others' comments, it seems like Raybestos Pro or Moog Control Arms/Ball Joints are good aftermarket alternatives. I see the Upper Control Arms offered on Amazon for $110-140 each and the Ball Joint Assemblies available for around $40 each.
Any thoughts on how likely my problem is related to one of these parts? Any experience to share with Moog or Raybestos Pro suspension parts?
Looking forward to making my "new" SC430 ride like new! Thanks for any advice from the forum.
11-12-15, 08:41 AM
#2
The same way those ten year old tires with low miles degrades. All of the rubber on the cars does too. The bushes for the sc430were made overly soft for comfort to start with. This makes it so the bushes get way to loose very quickly. Now the degradation of those bushes causes them to harden, or if from getting oil on them all gooey mushy. Either way they are not doing their job correctly anymore. Get in there with a pry bar and see how much movement the bushes have. When done you will know what needs replacing.
Last edited by Coleroad; 11-12-15 at 08:47 AM.
11-12-15, 04:09 PM
#3
Lexus Test Driver
Plus one on the words from Cole!
I have a 2002 that just hit 70k miles, 63k miles when I purchased at the beginning of 2015. I started with tires, then upper control arms, lower ball joints and outer tie rod ends plus a good alignment. It is much better but the car still wanders at interstate speed.
After several discussions with others who have replaced everything, I decided to replace the rest of the front end parts. These include the lower control arm no.1 bushings, lower control arm no.2 bushings, front sway bar bushings, front sway bar end links, rack and pinion bushings, rear sway bar bushings and the rear sway bar end links.
NOTE: this car does have two sets of lower control arms. The lower control arm no.2 is also referred to as the caster arm.
If you are looking for good OEM replacement parts, go to rockauto.com, they carry Moog and other brands. There prices are very reasonable.
If you want really high quality, go to figs.com, they are a sponsor here and some of the CL members have used their parts.
I wish I would have just purchased everything the first time because it is costing me more money doing it this way. I will need to have the front end aligned again.
All of these parts, not tires or shocks, should cost no more than $500 delivered.
I have a 2002 that just hit 70k miles, 63k miles when I purchased at the beginning of 2015. I started with tires, then upper control arms, lower ball joints and outer tie rod ends plus a good alignment. It is much better but the car still wanders at interstate speed.
After several discussions with others who have replaced everything, I decided to replace the rest of the front end parts. These include the lower control arm no.1 bushings, lower control arm no.2 bushings, front sway bar bushings, front sway bar end links, rack and pinion bushings, rear sway bar bushings and the rear sway bar end links.
NOTE: this car does have two sets of lower control arms. The lower control arm no.2 is also referred to as the caster arm.
If you are looking for good OEM replacement parts, go to rockauto.com, they carry Moog and other brands. There prices are very reasonable.
If you want really high quality, go to figs.com, they are a sponsor here and some of the CL members have used their parts.
I wish I would have just purchased everything the first time because it is costing me more money doing it this way. I will need to have the front end aligned again.
All of these parts, not tires or shocks, should cost no more than $500 delivered.
Last edited by Bgw70; 11-12-15 at 04:13 PM.
11-13-15, 05:44 AM
#4
Instructor
Thread Starter
Plus one on the words from Cole!
I have a 2002 that just hit 70k miles, 63k miles when I purchased at the beginning of 2015. I started with tires, then upper control arms, lower ball joints and outer tie rod ends plus a good alignment. It is much better but the car still wanders at interstate speed.
After several discussions with others who have replaced everything, I decided to replace the rest of the front end parts. These include the lower control arm no.1 bushings, lower control arm no.2 bushings, front sway bar bushings, front sway bar end links, rack and pinion bushings, rear sway bar bushings and the rear sway bar end links.
NOTE: this car does have two sets of lower control arms. The lower control arm no.2 is also referred to as the caster arm.
If you are looking for good OEM replacement parts, go to rockauto.com, they carry Moog and other brands. There prices are very reasonable.
If you want really high quality, go to figs.com, they are a sponsor here and some of the CL members have used their parts.
I wish I would have just purchased everything the first time because it is costing me more money doing it this way. I will need to have the front end aligned again.
All of these parts, not tires or shocks, should cost no more than $500 delivered.
I have a 2002 that just hit 70k miles, 63k miles when I purchased at the beginning of 2015. I started with tires, then upper control arms, lower ball joints and outer tie rod ends plus a good alignment. It is much better but the car still wanders at interstate speed.
After several discussions with others who have replaced everything, I decided to replace the rest of the front end parts. These include the lower control arm no.1 bushings, lower control arm no.2 bushings, front sway bar bushings, front sway bar end links, rack and pinion bushings, rear sway bar bushings and the rear sway bar end links.
NOTE: this car does have two sets of lower control arms. The lower control arm no.2 is also referred to as the caster arm.
If you are looking for good OEM replacement parts, go to rockauto.com, they carry Moog and other brands. There prices are very reasonable.
If you want really high quality, go to figs.com, they are a sponsor here and some of the CL members have used their parts.
I wish I would have just purchased everything the first time because it is costing me more money doing it this way. I will need to have the front end aligned again.
All of these parts, not tires or shocks, should cost no more than $500 delivered.
My car doesn't really "wander," it just doesn't soak up the bumps and road imperfections to my satisfaction. Maybe I'm jaded by my other Lexus (LS600hL), which is the ultimate in serenity and smoothness.
I'll see what my mechanic has to say when I bring the SC to him today. Thanks again for the advice!
11-13-15, 03:35 PM
#5
Lexus Test Driver
Hey Rick,
I was considering just replacing the lower control arms but decided to replace the bushings in the control arms because I have access to a press.
The lower control arm no.1 is available on rockauto.com but the control arm no.2 seems to be more difficult to locate except from Toyota.
The bushings on the front and rear sway bars along with the rack and pinion are easy to replace.
The front and rear sway bar end links are also easy to replace.
You could possibly just have an issue with shocks but I doubt it.
I was considering just replacing the lower control arms but decided to replace the bushings in the control arms because I have access to a press.
The lower control arm no.1 is available on rockauto.com but the control arm no.2 seems to be more difficult to locate except from Toyota.
The bushings on the front and rear sway bars along with the rack and pinion are easy to replace.
The front and rear sway bar end links are also easy to replace.
You could possibly just have an issue with shocks but I doubt it.
11-14-15, 07:12 PM
#6
Think some of the harshness over bumps may be due to it being a 2002. This was one of the most regular complaints for the early SC430s. I heard that in my year (2005) they changed the suspension a little and made it softer. I have driven Mandyfig's 2004 and he has driven my 2005 and it definitely feels like his 2004 has a tighter suspension and mine is generally softer sprung. Having said all that, I think having the softer suspension like mine is a disadvantage in the twisties - I hold the line in curves only about as well as an SUV.
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jszachar (12-31-20)
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11-15-15, 12:01 AM
#9
what your describing is the shocks..
I had that feel and I have mentioned it long ago in a few threads..
the suspension is perfect on a smooth road but on a bump or crack in the road.. you feel it.. kinda like the suspension has split personality.. its weird!
Changed to coilovers.. I'm happy!
I had that feel and I have mentioned it long ago in a few threads..
the suspension is perfect on a smooth road but on a bump or crack in the road.. you feel it.. kinda like the suspension has split personality.. its weird!
Changed to coilovers.. I'm happy!
11-16-15, 06:01 AM
#10
Instructor
Thread Starter
My independent (very trustworthy) mechanic did a thorough check of my entire front suspension on Friday. He said everything checked out perfectly, nice and tight with no strut leaks or bushing wobbliness. The only thing he mentioned was that the lower control arm bushing (the one pointing to the rear of the car) was "a little soft."
Sounds like this simply confirms what OBP and bimmer said about this problem being pretty standard on the 2002 model. As Coleroad mentioned, the springs changed between the early models and the 2006 and later models.
Perhaps my only real option is to switch to Coilovers... I have no idea what that even entails, though. Is it a costly Mod? My independent mechanic is very good and quite reasonable -- how much does the hardware cost to switch to the coilover setup?
Thanks to the forum for all the advice!
Sounds like this simply confirms what OBP and bimmer said about this problem being pretty standard on the 2002 model. As Coleroad mentioned, the springs changed between the early models and the 2006 and later models.
Perhaps my only real option is to switch to Coilovers... I have no idea what that even entails, though. Is it a costly Mod? My independent mechanic is very good and quite reasonable -- how much does the hardware cost to switch to the coilover setup?
Thanks to the forum for all the advice!
11-16-15, 07:21 AM
#11
Lexus Test Driver
My independent (very trustworthy) mechanic did a thorough check of my entire front suspension on Friday. He said everything checked out perfectly, nice and tight with no strut leaks or bushing wobbliness. The only thing he mentioned was that the lower control arm bushing (the one pointing to the rear of the car) was "a little soft."
Sounds like this simply confirms what OBP and bimmer said about this problem being pretty standard on the 2002 model. As Coleroad mentioned, the springs changed between the early models and the 2006 and later models.
Perhaps my only real option is to switch to Coilovers... I have no idea what that even entails, though. Is it a costly Mod? My independent mechanic is very good and quite reasonable -- how much does the hardware cost to switch to the coilover setup?
Thanks to the forum for all the advice!
Sounds like this simply confirms what OBP and bimmer said about this problem being pretty standard on the 2002 model. As Coleroad mentioned, the springs changed between the early models and the 2006 and later models.
Perhaps my only real option is to switch to Coilovers... I have no idea what that even entails, though. Is it a costly Mod? My independent mechanic is very good and quite reasonable -- how much does the hardware cost to switch to the coilover setup?
Thanks to the forum for all the advice!
11-16-15, 07:59 AM
#12
Instructor
Thread Starter
I'm still not sure whether it's smarter to have the bushings replaced or simply replace the Lower Control Arm Assemblies (which include the preinstalled bushings, I assume). I can purchase Moog LCAs for $78 each from RockAuto. Would the labor be higher to replace the entire arm assembly, or to press in new bushings into an existing assembly? Any other reason to not replace the arms (vs just the bushings)? Thanks!
11-17-15, 12:15 PM
#13
Lead Lap
Now I have a 2006 with run flats that at high speeds hits a bump in the road that translates into the steering wheel feels like it jerks on impact. I took a cheaper route this time and just replaced the steering rack bushings first. Problem solved, but the run flats ride is still stiff compared to non run flats. For $55 in parts from TM Enginering, I would try this. It's not hard to do yourself and replacing them does not affect your alignment. The old bushings looked normal. I guess the rubber hardness gets too soft with age. Good luck. Keep us posted on what solves your issue.
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JakeinCali (02-25-20)
11-17-15, 01:31 PM
#14
Instructor
Thread Starter
I've been following your journey to a smooth riding SC and my experiences have been similar to yours. I had a 2002 which rode rough and bumps at high speeds sent the steering wheel into a shimmy. I had to get rid of the run flat tires, road force balance the non run flats, install coilovers and replace the steering rack bushings before solving the issues. Never had to replace the control arm bushings.
Now I have a 2006 with run flats that at high speeds hits a bump in the road that translates into the steering wheel feels like it jerks on impact. I took a cheaper route this time and just replaced the steering rack bushings first. Problem solved, but the run flats ride is still stiff compared to non run flats. For $55 in parts from TM Enginering, I would try this. It's not hard to do yourself and replacing them does not affect your alignment. The old bushings looked normal. I guess the rubber hardness gets too soft with age. Good luck. Keep us posted on what solves your issue.
Now I have a 2006 with run flats that at high speeds hits a bump in the road that translates into the steering wheel feels like it jerks on impact. I took a cheaper route this time and just replaced the steering rack bushings first. Problem solved, but the run flats ride is still stiff compared to non run flats. For $55 in parts from TM Enginering, I would try this. It's not hard to do yourself and replacing them does not affect your alignment. The old bushings looked normal. I guess the rubber hardness gets too soft with age. Good luck. Keep us posted on what solves your issue.
11-17-15, 02:16 PM
#15
Instructor
Thread Starter
Plus one on the words from Cole!
I have a 2002 that just hit 70k miles, 63k miles when I purchased at the beginning of 2015. I started with tires, then upper control arms, lower ball joints and outer tie rod ends plus a good alignment. It is much better but the car still wanders at interstate speed.
After several discussions with others who have replaced everything, I decided to replace the rest of the front end parts. These include the lower control arm no.1 bushings, lower control arm no.2 bushings, front sway bar bushings, front sway bar end links, rack and pinion bushings, rear sway bar bushings and the rear sway bar end links.
NOTE: this car does have two sets of lower control arms. The lower control arm no.2 is also referred to as the caster arm.
If you are looking for good OEM replacement parts, go to rockauto.com, they carry Moog and other brands. There prices are very reasonable.
If you want really high quality, go to figs.com, they are a sponsor here and some of the CL members have used their parts.
I wish I would have just purchased everything the first time because it is costing me more money doing it this way. I will need to have the front end aligned again.
All of these parts, not tires or shocks, should cost no more than $500 delivered.
I have a 2002 that just hit 70k miles, 63k miles when I purchased at the beginning of 2015. I started with tires, then upper control arms, lower ball joints and outer tie rod ends plus a good alignment. It is much better but the car still wanders at interstate speed.
After several discussions with others who have replaced everything, I decided to replace the rest of the front end parts. These include the lower control arm no.1 bushings, lower control arm no.2 bushings, front sway bar bushings, front sway bar end links, rack and pinion bushings, rear sway bar bushings and the rear sway bar end links.
NOTE: this car does have two sets of lower control arms. The lower control arm no.2 is also referred to as the caster arm.
If you are looking for good OEM replacement parts, go to rockauto.com, they carry Moog and other brands. There prices are very reasonable.
If you want really high quality, go to figs.com, they are a sponsor here and some of the CL members have used their parts.
I wish I would have just purchased everything the first time because it is costing me more money doing it this way. I will need to have the front end aligned again.
All of these parts, not tires or shocks, should cost no more than $500 delivered.
BGW: I think I'm going to start by replacing my Steering Rack and Sway Bar Bushings using the Daizen brand sold by TM Engineering. I'd like to also replace my Lower Control Arm (Caster Arm) Bushings, but I haven't found a good source to purchase those specific bushings.
Can anyone steer me to where I could purchase good quality Caster Arm bushings?
Thanks for all the advice!