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Thank you to everyone who replied to my original post – a lot of caring, advice and much appreciated!
Here’s the current situation with Lexus (corporate) – after the dealership who held the car for two weeks to do electronic diagnostics and interact with Lexus corporate, the dealer reported I need a Master Brake Cylinder. And from that, there could be other problems because the engine light was on. I don’t know why they need to change the MBC before assessing why the engine light is on. ALSO, at the time the brakes failed, the engine light was not lit. It’s a little confusing and hope to find out more tomorrow when I tow out the car.
The Lexus case manager said after their District Manager reviewed the case, the company decided they can’t “accommodate” me with respect to repairing the car. They’re sorry this happened but the sentiment is my car is 16 years old with 135,000 miles. The fellow said at that age anything can happen. My reply to that is:
1). For the last 12 years, my car has averaged 7,500-8,000 miles per year. I’m in warm Southern California and it’s not like we have snowstorms and car corrosion issues. The vehicle is parked inside, has had two paint jobs, the upholstery and trim is perfect and people always say my car looks new and can’t believe it when I tell them it’s a 2002.
2). I told Lexus I can produce all my service receipts where they’ll see the car was well taken care of. I’ve never missed an oil change and at 90,000 I proactively replaced the timing chain as recommended. The company also knows I’m also a Lexus customer and maintain a (discount) account at the dealership for parts.
3). At this juncture, I really dislike what this company is doing but as insensitive as it may sound, one can understand the mindset. This corporation just doesn’t want to do “the right thing” and they know situations like mine should never take place. They also know if someone else was driving, people could have died and it would have been plastered over the news that the brakes failed in the Lexus SC 430 “out of nowhere.” They know this but bottom line, I believe if Lexus goes ahead in the name of good customer service and repair the car, it could be interpreted as accepting liability – admitting they were responsible for what occurred. I meaned it’s not like they’re scared or anything but I think they don’t want potential negative exposure or future claims on this subject. And of course if I change the Master Brake Cylinder, there’s no evidence.
I’m uncertain how I’m going to move forward and will give it another try with Lexus. People buy their cars with the intention of keeping them for 200,000 miles (like me) and look forward to properly maintaining their vehicle. I bet at car dealerships across America salespeople boast to buyers, “You can drive this Lexus up to a million miles. The technology is that great!” Well, maybe they should also add, “But don’t forget there’s a chance at 135,00 miles your master brake cylinder can suddenly fail and you’ll lose all brake power.” Don’t think so.
Here’s some of the questions I’m going to bring up with the dealership and if anyone has any feedback/opinions, would appreciate.
1). How did my Master Brake Cylinder fail? Did something break down (or fall apart) inside it, making it inoperable? What did your diagnostic report confirm? Were there other tests?
2). How does a MBC get its power? Does it have a solenoid? Do the solenoids ever fail and if they do, will it result in catastrophic brake failure?
3). Is there a separate computer that operates the braking system? Does it send power and/or transmit a signal required for the MBC to function? If that’s true, how do you determine the cause of losing power and/or signal and how would that be fixable?
4). When power steering goes out, you can still steer the car -- it’s not like the wheel just spins around. When conventional power brakes go out, you can stop though it takes some muscle. In my situation where the brakes 100% failed, what was the fail safe in place to protect me? I’m certain before the car was sold to the general public, the question came up (at Lexus) what could potentially happen to cause a catastrophic brake failure, and with no warning?
5). If they knew the Master Brake Cylinder could lose all power and someone’s car transforms into a death trap, why wasn’t the braking system designed in a manner when a catastrophic event occurs, the car will stills top – whether that happens automatically or the driver is able to do it on their own. Maybe that kind of technology wasn’t available in 2002 -- but if it was, the engineers/designers should have manufactured a car that would protect people, save lives and prevent accidents when people lose control of their brakes.
6). This was not a mechanical breakdown – something wear and tear. To my understanding (from my private mechanic), it was the MBC’s power that got cut off and/or a signal from the computer. That’s what created the zero hydraulic (?) pressure, making the brakes inoperative.
7). The reason I believe this was not a mechanical breakdown is because after I was able to get the car off the highway and turn it off, after a few turns of the key the car restarted with no warning sirens and the brake pedal was 100% operative! Mystified, I drove the car around in a large parking lot to test the brakes and it was like the whole thing never happened! The point is, I would not have been able to drive the car after the first incident (and with perfect brakes) if some inside part was broken or failed. Would I be correct in that assumption?
Thank you again everyone for your concern – take care,
So they never told you what went wrong with the MC, they only said you need a new MC.
did you happen to read my comments in posts I wrote?
if you do, it might help with your questions to the dealer.
Did the dealer happen to let you speak with the mechanic, or did you have a service manager tell you about the problem?
ask to speak with the mechanic who diagnosed the issues.
i will tell you IMO, your problem could be electrical or mechanical.
if the boost pump did not build pressure in the accumulator, then you lost the power assist and the brakes still worked but were hard to apply.
the pedal would only move about two inches.
if the piston seals in the MC temporarily failed, then the pedal went all the way to the floor and you had no brakes.
the pedal moved about 6-8 inches and it touched the carpet.
I replaced my MC on my 2002 when it had 65k miles. I purchased it from a salvage yard for $100. It came from a 2005 with 75k miles. I now have 97k miles and no issues.
Good Luck with Lexus...I would be surprised if they pay for anything.
Ask for Goodwill assistance from Lexus although
At over 100K, the manufacturer really has no
reason to help not to mention the car is 15 years old.
with a new MC and dealer labor, you might be looking at
$2,500-$3,000. Maybe you best bet is buy the MC at
a wholesale Lexus parts for $1,500 and have someone
else installed the part for $500. I personally would not go with a used
MC when it has to do with brakes ..
Have you called the dealership requesting and insisting an answer?
I personally will not drive the car until Lexus IS willing
to release all liabilities for the safety of your car..
lexus owes you an answer . I mean it could have been
very serious for you...
By now, they should have an answer.
Just saw this and I couldn't agree more. I did send an update yesterday as to what's taking place.
To clarify, when this event happened, did the pedal travel completely to the floor? Or was it just rock hard at the beginning/middle of the pedal travel?
If you did have a failure if the vacuum assistance - whether from a malfunction/failure of a component, or the engine shutting off - pumping would be the exact opposite of what you want to do. Once the engine is off or there is no more vacuum being provided from the engine for other reasons, you have roughly 3-5 full pumps of the pedal until your vacuum reserve as all used up. So for future reference (which I hope you'll never need), if your engine turns off while driving, do not pump the pedal. Every depression of the pedal is going to use some of that reserve until it's all gone. You can see this for yourself just like BGW said - pump the pedal when the engine is turned off and notice how the pedal gets harder and harder with each application until it's gone completely and you're left with a rock hard pedal. (Yes I understand that the engine turning off is not strictly what happened in your situation; this is more of an aside)
Pumping the brakes is for when you're lacking pressure in the hydraulic side of the brake system, which results in a 'mushy' brake pedal, or a pedal that easily goes all the way to floor or ends up sinking to the floor as you're pressing it. If you had a failing master or slave cylinder causing pressure to leak past the piston or otherwise escape that specific part of the system, or any other pressure leaks elsewhere in the system causing pressure to leak out. Pumping the brake continuously adds more and more pressure, in the hopes that you can pump the pressure into the system faster than it's escaping.
Yes and no. This goes for all cars/SUVs/pickups with a traditional foot/floor or hand/console mounted emergency brake (not a button activated emergency brake like many new cars have today) - the foremost danger of a full application of the parking brake is locking the rear wheels while the car is in motion, especially at higher speeds 30-40mph and faster. The ability to lock the wheels depends on the adjustment and the design/components of your emergency brake. Out of the 10s of dozens of vehicles I've driven, some were completely unable to fully lock the tires while in motion (even with properly adjusted brakes), meaning they just didn't have the "clamping power" to overcome the tires' traction. If your rear tires lock while in motion, the vehicle will have propensity to slide sideways, where the rear of the vehicle is trying to trade places with the front of the vehicle. This is obviously very, very dangerous, and the risk of turning the vehicle over comes from one of two situations: in a tall/top heavy SUV or truck, just rolling over as it slides sideways due to the high center of gravity, or in any vehicle - even those with a low center of gravity - sliding sideways into a curb/pothole/other fixed object or the wheels and tires digging into dirt/sand while sliding sideways, which results in the same 'foot hole' effect as as hitting a curb/pothole, sending you on a not-so-fun ride.
Thank you. This is very informative and appreciate your help.
So they never told you what went wrong with the MC, they only said you need a new MC.
did you happen to read my comments in posts I wrote?
if you do, it might help with your questions to the dealer.
Did the dealer happen to let you speak with the mechanic, or did you have a service manager tell you about the problem?
ask to speak with the mechanic who diagnosed the issues.
i will tell you IMO, your problem could be electrical or mechanical.
if the boost pump did not build pressure in the accumulator, then you lost the power assist and the brakes still worked but were hard to apply.
the pedal would only move about two inches.
if the piston seals in the MC temporarily failed, then the pedal went all the way to the floor and you had no brakes.
the pedal moved about 6-8 inches and it touched the carpet.
Really appreciate your input and I plan to talk with the mechanic and the diagnostic guy over there. Can tell you that the service representative said (will get more details later) my MBC was leaking and it caused the loss of pressure -- she also said they can't guarantee the braking system is "fixed" until they've replaced the MBC and perform further diagnostics. It kind of sounds absurd -- the brake fluid was full at the time of the incident, as well 2-3 days later when the car was towed to the dealer. And if it was a leak that caused the problem, why would SO SUDDENLY result in a 100 percent loss of brake power? These are the kinds of questions I will be asking.
How much did you have to pay Lexus for the
diagnostic at this point?
did they tell you the cost for replacement?
Lexus charged $200 and all they’ve come up with is I need a master brake cylinder. They also said there could be other problems with the breaking system but weren’t certain. It’s ridiculous and I’m towing the car out of there tomorrow. They say the MBC has a “leak” but there were never any issues with brake fluid and if it was a drip drip drip-type leak it would have been a gradual failure over a period of time, with obvious warning signals that I had a brake problem. Still researching into everything and thanks!
Ask them if it was an internal leak. Where it was leaking past the seals on the brake piston.
That is the only leak I can come up with where you have no brakes and it can recover.
Remember, internal leak. Does this make sense and do you understand?
The brake piston is connected directly to the brake pedal. When the brake pedal is pushed, the piston then pushes the brake fluid and the brake fluid applies pressure to the brakes.
If the seals on the piston fail and allow the fluid past those seals, there will be no pressure applied to the brakes.
Ask them if it was an internal leak. Where it was leaking past the seals on the brake piston.
That is the only leak I can come up with where you have no brakes and it can recover.
Remember, internal leak. Does this make sense and do you understand?
The brake piston is connected directly to the brake pedal. When the brake pedal is pushed, the piston then pushes the brake fluid and the brake fluid applies pressure to the brakes.
If the seals on the piston fail and allow the fluid past those seals, there will be no pressure applied to the brakes.
Thank you for your input which is very informative and appreciated. To answer, the diagnostics manager told me it was an “internal” leak. I then asked did he “see” where it’s leaking so we can confirm it was an internal leak. He said no, and acted like (although he was nice) it was a hassle to check that out – or that you’d have to open up the unit to actually see the leak. I then asked if it’s possible the “leak” could maybe be from a gasket, or something as simple as that. Again, he wasn’t sure. The only answer I obtained from the dealer was the master brake cylinder has to be replaced (because of the leak) and from there, they can determine if there’s anything else wrong. I asked if they master brake cylinder is replaced, does that guarantee the problem is solved. Again, the dealer didn’t know and stated they can’t determine what (if anything else) is wrong with the brakes until they replace the master brake cylinder. I also asked if they performed any electronic diagnostics – to determine if the MBC is getting power or whatever. I asked because my mechanic feels the cause of the catastrophic event was a loss of power and/or computer signal.
Your points about the piston and seals are really important – however, I did a little research and what I read said (right or wrong) if the seals are failing, it’s a gradual progression – not a situation like mine where one second everything is running perfect and the next there’s no brakes and the flashing alarms on the dashboard. Do you believe that info is true, because I had no symptoms of any brake problems before the failure?
Another point and question about the piston seals – after the car lost brakes and I was able to safely get it off the highway, on maybe the fourth or fifth turn of the ignition, the warning lights and buzzer didn’t come on. I turned the engine over and the brakes were 100 percent restored – like nothing had happened! In an earlier post I wrote after this happened, I tested the brakes driving around a parking lot and everything was fine. Question is, if there was a seal failure (as you describe it) wouldn’t the damage already have been done through the first experience and I wouldn’t be able to drive the car the 2-3 miles I did before the brakes went out a second time?
You are so much more the expert than I am and thank you for your guidance – any help or insight you can provide with regard to the above is embraced!
if the seals are failing, it’s a gradual progression – not a situation like mine where one second everything is running perfect and the next there’s no brakes and the flashing alarms on the dashboard. Do you believe that info is true, because I had no symptoms of any brake problems before the failure?
Another point and question about the piston seals – after the car lost brakes and I was able to safely get it off the highway, on maybe the fourth or fifth turn of the ignition, the warning lights and buzzer didn’t come on. I turned the engine over and the brakes were 100 percent restored
BGW, If his pump motor is going out, starting with this instance, would that explain his situation? The pump isn't pressurizing when he steps on the brake?.
Separate the two items.
the piston is part of a manual hydraulic system. It alone can make your car stop...it’s the way old cars stopped before power brakes.
our cars have this manual system with a sophisticated power system which adds power brakes. It is a power assist.
if the power assist motor fails, you must push really hard to make the brakes work.
okay,
go out to your car, engine off,
step on the brakes six times.
Now start the engine,
step on the brakes six times,
notice the difference?
BTW, Lexus service advisors are super nice people who for the most part, don’t know how to change a spark plug, but know how to schedule your car for all kinds of service!
they also know how to direct you to the yummies in the lobby and provide you with a beautiful new Lexus to drive while your car is serviced...hopefully you will just trade in that old broken car for a new $100k car.
This is part of the game...sell, sell and resell. It’s very expensive to run a dealership. They are not Lexus, they only sell Lexus...it’s like any dealership...it’s the way it works.
07-16-18, 05:24 PM
