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Still I'm sure this will sell like crazy. Will be interesting to see if it cannibalizes GX sales.
Yep....it's an almost sure bet that GX sales will be significantly impacted, at least in the U.S. The GX might remain popular, though, among the Third-World and desert areas it currently is, and among those who will need more towing capacity than an RX.
Panel (cargo) vans and passenger vans -- which tend to be much the same thing in Europe -- have flat floors from the rear bumper to the front firewall. The height of the floor is dictated by the maximum height of the underfloor components, which are the fuel tank and rear suspension. A flat floor in the rear passenger area allows for easy walk-in, walk-out and walk-through, but to allow walk-through requires a minimum interior cabin height; a low-as-possible step-up makes walk-in easier.
In North American-market passenger minivans, a fold-into-the-floor 3rd-row seat has become a must-have feature. To allow this feature, the interior flat floor has been raised a bit compared to the European minivans, such as the Mercedes-Benz Metris and Ford Transit Connect.
Sport and crossover utility vehicles do not have a completely flat interior floor, which makes walk-in to a 3rd-row and walk-through between rows difficult, but allows for a lower interior cabin height. The front footwell floor height is about the equivalent to a high-riding car. The 2nd-row footwell height is usually raised a bit to allow for a flat floor over the driveshaft under the floor; the floor slopes from the front to the 2nd-row.
The floor height then has to step up from the 2nd-row footwell to clear the underfloor fuel tank and rear suspension. The 2nd-row seat sits on this stepped-up area of the rear floor but the footwell is lower than the stepped-up base of the 2nd-row seat (like in passenger cars) so legroom is good. This is very obvious in the 3rd-generation Honda CR-V.
This rear floor, which sits over the fuel tank and rear suspension, is at the height of a passenger van's flat floor. In passenger vans, and SUVs and CUVs, the 3rd-row seat sits atop this raised floor height. But because of the limited interior cabin height of SUVs and CUVs, the 3rd-row seat in these utility vehicles must sit as low as possible (as low as the 2nd-row seat, which has the benefit of a deeper footwell) to allow for adequate headroom, which limits legroom.
In passenger vans with flat floors and higher interior cabin heights, the 3rd-row can sit higher off the floor, as in this Toyota Sienna.
In the Toyota Sienna, as in all other North American-specific minivans, the 3rd-row seat folds back into an in-floor well for storage. But the well raises the interior floor height a bit and also requires a lower underbody behind the rear axle.
It is this rear underbody structure (and also front underbody structure) that really differentiates a North American-specific minivan from a SUV/CUV. In the USA and Canada, SUVs and car-based CUVs are restricted by minimum approach and departure angles. The minimum approach angle, unfortunately, gives us the funny overbite-look front nose on Lexus RX and NX crossovers. The minimum departure angle means the rear underbody and things hanging underneath (like exhaust components) must be tucked up high, which does not allow for a rear well that the 3rd-row can be stored in.
To allow for a flat (or almost-flat) rear load floor in SUVs and CUVs then, the rear cargo floor behind the rear-most row of seats is raised to be at the height of the folded-down seatbacks (which can be quite high, as in luxury CUVs where the rear seat cushions are quite thick), like in the Toyota Highlander.
As @peteharvey said, the minivan and the CUV have the same exterior body height. The minivan has a lower ride height and greater interior cabin height to allow for a completely flat interior floor, giving the minivan an upright, blocky look. The CUV, on the other hand, has a higher ride height and lower interior cabin height, giving it a sleeker-looking body. It is these structural differences that up to now have differentiated the minivan from the SUV/CUV.
But the latest minivans (namely the new Chrysler Pacifica and latest Honda Odyssey) have started to look less upright and more sleek, and the older Honda CR-V has proven that it is possible to have a flat rear floor, even with a high departure angle.
So why can't we marry the 2 styles and come up with a vehicle that looks like a sleek crossover on the outside, with all the requisite CUV/SUV styling cues, including the high approach and departure angles, but has the functionality and convenience of a minivan inside, with true front-to-back flat floor? We may have to give up the rear seat well (and perhaps the spare tire as well) but those may be worthwhile sacrifices.
It took imagination and courage for Chrysler to bring out those first FWD minivans. It would take some more imagination and courage for some automaker to bring out a minivan with CUV styling.
It took imagination and courage for Chrysler to bring out those first FWD minivans. It would take some more imagination and courage for some automaker to bring out a minivan with CUV styling.
Well, to some extent, large FWD 3-row SUVs already fill that 7-seat role....all that's missing are sliding doors. Perhaps the best example, with the best 3rd-row seats, is the Chevy Traverse/Buick Enclave/GMC Acadia triplets...though, unlike the other two the latest 2018 Acadia is significantly downsized.
Here's the latest Traverse: Car and Driver's review of it gave excellent marks.
Well, to some extent, large FWD 3-row SUVs already fill that 7-seat role....all that's missing are sliding doors. Perhaps the best example, with the best 3rd-row seats, is the Chevy Traverse/Buick Enclave/GMC Acadia triplets...though, unlike the other two the latest 2018 Acadia is significantly downsized.
Here's the latest Traverse: Car and Driver's review of it gave excellent marks.
From what I remember of the old Lambda triplets (I have not seen the new models), they did not have a true, front-to-back flat floor that minivans have. They also rode rather high so were a bit of challenge to climb in and out of. And if they did not have the low rear load floor that minivans have, that would rule them out in my book also.
The old Ford Flex was basically a minivan in SUV guise wasn't it?
The Flex is the closest to a minivan, in my opinion, but it is not a true van because it does not have a full, front-to-back flat floor.
I have not sat in one recently, so relying on photos, I see that the floor from the 2nd-row footwell to the base of the 3rd-row seat is relatively flat (there seems to be a bit of a middle hump in the 2nd-floor footwell). The 3rd-row seat sits on a raised pedestal over the rear axle.
The lower floor compared to other SUVs and the high roof gives enough interior cabin height so that even the 3rd-row seat has a deep footwell AND good headroom, enough that adults can sit in the far back.
I commend Ford for this space efficient design. I wish other automakers were as courageous as Ford is willing to be different in their 3-row, not-quite-minivan vehicle.
The old Ford Flex was basically a minivan in SUV guise wasn't it?
Originally Posted by Sulu
The Flex is the closest to a minivan, in my opinion, but it is not a true van because it does not have a full, front-to-back flat floor.
I have not sat in one recently, so relying on photos, I see that the floor from the 2nd-row footwell to the base of the 3rd-row seat is relatively flat (there seems to be a bit of a middle hump in the 2nd-floor footwell). The 3rd-row seat sits on a raised pedestal over the rear axle.
The lower floor compared to other SUVs and the high roof gives enough interior cabin height so that even the 3rd-row seat has a deep footwell AND good headroom, enough that adults can sit in the far back.
I commend Ford for this space efficient design. I wish other automakers were as courageous as Ford is willing to be different in their 3-row, not-quite-minivan vehicle.
Yes, I think so too.
It does not have a true flat floor from front to rear.
Like a Toyota Highlander etc, the floor is stepped up under the middle row seats to house the fuel tank, and that floor remains at that height in the footwell area of the 3rd row of seats, as seen in the photo below.
The Flex is a massive vehicle, with very plain boxy styling, that doesn't seem to sell well compared to the Toyota Highlander.
As hard as I try, I cannot see how we can create an"all in one" MPV-SUV vehicle with three row seating.
There are basically two types of floor pans: either the tub floor pan as used by sedans etc, or the "inverted" tub floor pan used by MPV's etc.
The tub-type floor pan has a deep floor, but a 3rd row seat application creates a "limousine" type vehicle, where a proper deep footwell for the 3rd row of seats, can only be achieved by relocating the fuel tank under the 3rd row of seats, and the rear axle "behind" [not on top of] the 3rd row seats as illustrated below - requiring a massive limousine long wheelbase.
Meanwhile the inverted-tub type floor pan with 3rd row application results in a floor that is "raised" as typically used in MPV's, but this easily and naturally allows storage of the fuel tank, rear suspension & rear drive shafts below the floor & between the inverted sills, and still allows the 3rd row to sit directly on top of the rear axle center - negating the need for a massive limmo stretched wheelbase, as I illustrate below.
I can't see perfection in either the tub-type, nor the inverted tub-type floor pans.
The former is low and long, while the latter is tall and short.
It's each to their own.
Unless someone can come up with something great.
A 7-seater SUV is actually a type of vehicle that bridges the gap between an 8-seater MPV on the left, and a true off-road all-terrain vehicle like a Toyota Landcruiser on the right.
On the topic of Landcruisers, despite standing 6'4" tall & 8" taller than a Highlander SUV, I find the Landcruiser noticeably smaller inside than a Higlander, esp the internal cabin height.
On analysis, this is due to the fact that the Landcruiser's cabin floor has been significantly raised for high ground clearance off-roading.
Landcruisers are great for off-roading & towing thanks to the body-on-frame ladder-type chassis & switchable RWD-based 4WD...
The deep well in the back the third row flips into with a minivan is huge. Only crossover I've ever seen that also has this configuration is the Ford Explorer. Biggest lifestyle upgrade for a minivan over a crossover is the sliding doors.
As somebody who just bought his second minivan, I personally don't see the market for a Lexus minivan. I think people who buy minivans forego a certain amount of vanity, and the question is in an already shrinking minivan market, is there a niche for a $60,000+ Lexus luxury minivan? Remember the only market where the "minivan" exists is here, so Lexus would have to engineer an entire vehicle just for the US/NA market, it would have no market overseas. Not likely IMHO.
As much as I love luxury cars, and I am totally willing to drop $60k on a nice family ride, I wouldn't pay $60k for a Lexus minivan. Once my kids are old enough I'll totally spend $60k on a nice luxury 3 row crossover.
As somebody who just bought his second minivan, I personally don't see the market for a Lexus minivan. I think people who buy minivans forego a certain amount of vanity, and the question is in an already shrinking minivan market, is there a niche for a $60,000+ Lexus luxury minivan? Remember the only market where the "minivan" exists is here, so Lexus would have to engineer an entire vehicle just for the US/NA market, it would have no market overseas. Not likely IMHO.
Can you explain this statement bc in other country, mostly Asian countries, minivans are everywhere and widely accepted. I'm sure everyone knows the uber lux Alphard, Vellfire, El grand....
From the C & E Class platforms, Mercedes must go to some lengths to create the GLC & GLE SUV's and V Class MPV minivans.
However Lexus only has to "reskin" the sheetmetal & plastics of the JDM Toyota Crown, RAV4, Highlander & Sienna to create the Lexus GS, NX, RX & any hypothetical Lexus MPV respectively.
NB.
A very good idea some one said earlier to style Sienna a lot better for the same $50k.
However Toyota is very clever; they know what they are doing.
If the Avalon/RAV4/Highlander was styled a lot better for the same price, then no one would buy the ES/NX/RX - after all, the only real difference between the two is skin deep.
However, it is true that with only 1.8 children per child bearing woman in the US, family sizes are becoming smaller and smaller, most drivers no longer need a vehicle with 7/8 seats - resulting in the decline in the popularity of MPV's, such that the tall space afforded by crossovers has rising popularity...
Can you explain this statement bc in other country, mostly Asian countries, minivans are everywhere and widely accepted. I'm sure everyone knows the uber lux Alphard, Vellfire, El grand....
They're different vehicles though, pretty different from the "American minivan" which is really only sold here. Those Euro MPVs are MUCH smaller for instance.
For instance, why doesn't Honda sell the Odyssey anywhere but here? Why did VW rebadge a Chrysler minivan rather than continue to sell a Euro style van here?
They're different vehicles though, pretty different from the "American minivan" which is really only sold here. Those Euro MPVs are MUCH smaller for instance.
For instance, why doesn't Honda sell the Odyssey anywhere but here? Why did VW rebadge a Chrysler minivan rather than continue to sell a Euro style van here?
12-03-17 | 03:52 PM
