About to enter the dark side.
12-08-17 | 03:32 PM
#16
Instructor
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 780
Likes: 120
From: MA
I think a 100k cap on all cars is kind of conservative. While I doubt theres really such a thing as a "bad car" anymore, some cars/makes age better than others, not just in terms of reliability, but tech, wear, and look as well. As an all around package, Lexus seems to be one of the best as I would have no hesitation buying a 5-10 year old Lexus in good shape with 100k, and still have most, if not more features, performance, and reliability, than others cars on the road today, let alone at the price point. I can't say the same for most other makes, as much as I would like too.
-Mike
12-08-17 | 03:56 PM
#17
^Oh believe me I know, my first Lexus was a ES300 that i put 240k miles on driving weekly from Buffalo to Cleveland and back that i sold after it was 9 years old, but I have to agree with BC in that with cars, the issue is lack of tech more so than reliability.
I drive brand new cars frequently though, ranging from Chevy Cruises to new Lexus and Jags, (I rent cars a lot for work and get loaners from Lexus more than I care to admit) and almost never use anything but the heated/cooled seats, rearview camera, and ipod connectivity, all things my current GS has. Everything else is nice, but I almost never use it.
I drive brand new cars frequently though, ranging from Chevy Cruises to new Lexus and Jags, (I rent cars a lot for work and get loaners from Lexus more than I care to admit) and almost never use anything but the heated/cooled seats, rearview camera, and ipod connectivity, all things my current GS has. Everything else is nice, but I almost never use it.
12-08-17 | 05:26 PM
#18
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,732
Likes: 2,389
From: Texas
LOL, dumping a Lexus at under 100K? Basically you're getting rid of a car that's just broken in so someone else can drive it. With proper care and avoidance of accidents, these cars will be good for 200-300K no problem. 200K is a minimum benchmark for me for getting rid of a car, and even at that, if it was taken care of properly that should literally only be like the first 2/3rds of its life.
This was a primary reason I bought a GS350 instead of this Audi S5 with the same model year that I was looking at. The Audi was a much faster car, etc.... had nicer things in certain regards.... however I know when the chips are down, getting the GS to 100K is going to be, in relative terms, no big deal.... getting an Audi that goes past 100K without rupturing ones bank account? I might as well buy powerball tickets, my odds would probably be better than that happening.
The entire killer app of these cars is that you can get 200+K or a decade or more of service out of them if you want, and even with routine maintenance, the total cost of operation isn't really very high. Hell I am trying to get my dad to get a new LS and he won't let go of his ES330 from 2003? or whenever it was made. (I want him to sell me his old ES so I can use it as a winter bang-around car or for my business.... ). It has some minor cosmetic issues but the car still drives really, really well. (and that's why he won't get rid of it, LOL!) Thats why I laugh at people that lease a Lexus, unless its for some business write off purpose.... like "oh great, so you're leasing that car and being forced not to drive it with that silly 10K mileage limit, so the next guy is going to get that car at the best price... lol" or someone has more cash than brains, literally doesn't drive anywhere, and gets bored every 3 years or so... I guess I can understand that. Then again I'm biased because I would destroy even a 15K lease mileage limit in about 5-6 months maybe, even if 3 of those months are over the summer when the work volume goes down.
When I got my GS I traded in a 2010 Camry LE V6 that had 260,000 miles on it. Honestly I would have kept that car in that role if the math had worked out at the time, but I had to do a lot of scrambling to make the numbers work for my GS, so that trade in, however little it was worth, ended up being part of the equation. If I had kept that car I had no doubt that I could have gotten it to 300K no problem. It was still in pretty damned good shape.
-Mike
This was a primary reason I bought a GS350 instead of this Audi S5 with the same model year that I was looking at. The Audi was a much faster car, etc.... had nicer things in certain regards.... however I know when the chips are down, getting the GS to 100K is going to be, in relative terms, no big deal.... getting an Audi that goes past 100K without rupturing ones bank account? I might as well buy powerball tickets, my odds would probably be better than that happening.
The entire killer app of these cars is that you can get 200+K or a decade or more of service out of them if you want, and even with routine maintenance, the total cost of operation isn't really very high. Hell I am trying to get my dad to get a new LS and he won't let go of his ES330 from 2003? or whenever it was made. (I want him to sell me his old ES so I can use it as a winter bang-around car or for my business.... ). It has some minor cosmetic issues but the car still drives really, really well. (and that's why he won't get rid of it, LOL!) Thats why I laugh at people that lease a Lexus, unless its for some business write off purpose.... like "oh great, so you're leasing that car and being forced not to drive it with that silly 10K mileage limit, so the next guy is going to get that car at the best price... lol" or someone has more cash than brains, literally doesn't drive anywhere, and gets bored every 3 years or so... I guess I can understand that. Then again I'm biased because I would destroy even a 15K lease mileage limit in about 5-6 months maybe, even if 3 of those months are over the summer when the work volume goes down.
When I got my GS I traded in a 2010 Camry LE V6 that had 260,000 miles on it. Honestly I would have kept that car in that role if the math had worked out at the time, but I had to do a lot of scrambling to make the numbers work for my GS, so that trade in, however little it was worth, ended up being part of the equation. If I had kept that car I had no doubt that I could have gotten it to 300K no problem. It was still in pretty damned good shape.
-Mike
Last edited by bclexus; 12-08-17 at 05:55 PM.
12-08-17 | 06:30 PM
#19
Rookie
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 56
Likes: 10
From: New York
I love this thread. I have a 2015 with 58K miles and a 2013 with 25K. I want them both to get over 250K. I really don't care about technology, I just want something that lasts forever. I really wanted my 2005 545 and 2008 550's to last forever but I guess BMW's aren't built that way.
12-08-17 | 07:25 PM
#20
Rookie
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 77
Likes: 3
From: Indiana
Apparently he hasn’t had the “real” Lexus experience and has money to burn by trading on more expensive unreliable cars. Did you ever think that people that really like their what you call dinosaurs and want to keep them. Technically can easy be updated in dinosaurs. What a concept! Economically sensible with no car payment!!
12-08-17 | 10:01 PM
#21
Instructor
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 780
Likes: 120
From: MA
Your point is well taken - and there are some people just like you who take great pleasure by keeping and using anything far beyond what most people think is reasonable. We aren't in Cuba where people must keep 60 year-old cars running. Neither do most people wear decade plus old outdated clothing or use bailing wire and duct tape to keep their washing machines, televisions and computers running. Most people move into newer homes or update their outdated kitchens and baths before you let-go of a car. But you are not most people...and I understand that. Let's just say I like what you do - for you...
on a car with a couple hundred thousand miles on it, either. Throwing some tires, brakes, or even dampers/springs on a car to milk another 50-60K out of an otherwise decent car is not a horrible value proposition as long as the expensive stuff like motor, trans, chassis are all fundamentally still pretty sound.
Hell, when I just got my GS serviced at the dealer in Watertown, I saw several vehicles being checked in or out that were a whole generation behind the current
ones. If one pays careful attention while driving, keep your eyes peeled for luxury cars that are older than 5+ years.... Lexus is one of the top seen cars in that
bracket. I see ****loads of the previous generation RX, GX, LX, and IS, GS, ES, and LS vehicles floating around. Most of these people could afford to buy a new
car... but why bother if it works well, and is familiar? Honestly people driving a car a generation or two behind the current aren't really losing out on much.
As far as the tech stuff goes, I see your point there- but honestly with some of that stuff there's a law of diminishing returns. I only "need" bluetooth for cell phone connectivity and maybe to stream music, as well as a decent factory stereo. These three things largely appeared in cars in abundance in the 05-08+ bracket. Otherwise any of the other new stuff? Nice, but not necessary; although things like the BSM and the BU camera have been in the GS line since the last generation of those cars were out, so that's not exactly "new" tech at this point. Stuff like LKA, radar cruise, phone app geegaw navigation things? Yawn. Nice to have but
nowhere near "necessary". Auto reviewers ***** about "infotainment" BS all the time, but if this really mattered, that's another thing that would have killed Lexus a
long time ago. Geegaws only really sell cars to a point, and after that point, only a minority group of weirdos are that obsessed with geegaws, and most of these weirdos are already driving Teslas or whatever. Most normal people care about how the car drives, how reliable it is (including reliability of basic functions) and to some degree how it looks- everything beyond that is usually parsley flakes/window dressing.
I might not be "most people" but I know my views are close to the views of a lot of other Lexus buyers.... otherwise this brand would have died out a long time ago, if everyone ascribed to the "50-100K then throw it away" system. If everyone believed that, than most of the cars produced today would still be junk, instead of the huge overall paradigm shift in sedan and SUV quality pushed forth by Toyota, Honda, and even Nissan, to some extent, that's been pushed over the past 20+ years. Consumers demanded cars that didn't blow up or turn into cash sieves at 100K and eventually they delivered. Even maintenance nightmare brands like BMW, MB, and Audi/VW have improved because of this, to some degree. (although those 3 are still far from Lexus, IMHO. ) Even Ford came a long way and got rid of their 5 digit odometers. (Ford pretty much had your philosophy internally- if someone really needs a 6 digit odometer, they should just throw it away at that point.... )
Also, with the mileage I put on cars (Minimum, 20K a year, on some occasions I hit over 30K a year) if I threw away cars every time they hit 100K "just cuz it has miles on it" If I wanted a "new car" at that interval, I'd end up being forced into buying marginal cars at that interval. That's just idiotic. I'd rather stretch the cars and obtain a MUCH BETTER upgrade over a slightly longer period of time.
I get it- there are classes of people that enjoy senseless upgrades every 1, 2-3 years or whatever their interval is, more power to them. I'm actually grateful for the existence of these people, to some degree because they provide lots of us with nice, barely used cars to buy at significant discount. these people also take the depreciation hit / cause resale values to fall into the crapper, which also works great for picking up a lightly used vehicle. I mean if it wasn't for the lady that leased my car and only put 11500 miles on it and barely drove it, I wouldn't have been able to pick up an excellent, barely used condition car for basically 22K+ off sticker!
-Mike
12-08-17 | 11:02 PM
#22
I've got a 2010 Nissan GTR, a 2016 Lexus GSF, a 2005 Lexus RX330, and a 2004 Pontiac Vibe (AKA Toyota Matrix) with 140K miles. I've thought about getting rid of the Pontiac Vibe but I just realized I've got no good reason to get rid of it. The thing drives just fine. Absolutely no body rattles, every accessory works, good gas mileage, great space when you fold down the rear seats (I use it to carry my slicks when I race). I am absolutely sure that it will run for 10 more years, no problem. IMO it would be dumb to get rid of it. Technology? It gets me from point A to point B. What else does one reasonably need technology wise???
12-09-17 | 09:56 AM
#23
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,732
Likes: 2,389
From: Texas
Kind of a terrible analogy though. A Lexus from the 2000s isn't 60 years old, or anywhere close to that. It's also not "unreasonable" to perform basic maintenance
on a car with a couple hundred thousand miles on it, either. Throwing some tires, brakes, or even dampers/springs on a car to milk another 50-60K out of an otherwise decent car is not a horrible value proposition as long as the expensive stuff like motor, trans, chassis are all fundamentally still pretty sound.
Hell, when I just got my GS serviced at the dealer in Watertown, I saw several vehicles being checked in or out that were a whole generation behind the current
ones. If one pays careful attention while driving, keep your eyes peeled for luxury cars that are older than 5+ years.... Lexus is one of the top seen cars in that
bracket. I see ****loads of the previous generation RX, GX, LX, and IS, GS, ES, and LS vehicles floating around. Most of these people could afford to buy a new
car... but why bother if it works well, and is familiar? Honestly people driving a car a generation or two behind the current aren't really losing out on much.
As far as the tech stuff goes, I see your point there- but honestly with some of that stuff there's a law of diminishing returns. I only "need" bluetooth for cell phone connectivity and maybe to stream music, as well as a decent factory stereo. These three things largely appeared in cars in abundance in the 05-08+ bracket. Otherwise any of the other new stuff? Nice, but not necessary; although things like the BSM and the BU camera have been in the GS line since the last generation of those cars were out, so that's not exactly "new" tech at this point. Stuff like LKA, radar cruise, phone app geegaw navigation things? Yawn. Nice to have but
nowhere near "necessary". Auto reviewers ***** about "infotainment" BS all the time, but if this really mattered, that's another thing that would have killed Lexus a
long time ago. Geegaws only really sell cars to a point, and after that point, only a minority group of weirdos are that obsessed with geegaws, and most of these weirdos are already driving Teslas or whatever. Most normal people care about how the car drives, how reliable it is (including reliability of basic functions) and to some degree how it looks- everything beyond that is usually parsley flakes/window dressing.
I might not be "most people" but I know my views are close to the views of a lot of other Lexus buyers.... otherwise this brand would have died out a long time ago, if everyone ascribed to the "50-100K then throw it away" system. If everyone believed that, than most of the cars produced today would still be junk, instead of the huge overall paradigm shift in sedan and SUV quality pushed forth by Toyota, Honda, and even Nissan, to some extent, that's been pushed over the past 20+ years. Consumers demanded cars that didn't blow up or turn into cash sieves at 100K and eventually they delivered. Even maintenance nightmare brands like BMW, MB, and Audi/VW have improved because of this, to some degree. (although those 3 are still far from Lexus, IMHO. ) Even Ford came a long way and got rid of their 5 digit odometers. (Ford pretty much had your philosophy internally- if someone really needs a 6 digit odometer, they should just throw it away at that point.... )
Also, with the mileage I put on cars (Minimum, 20K a year, on some occasions I hit over 30K a year) if I threw away cars every time they hit 100K "just cuz it has miles on it" If I wanted a "new car" at that interval, I'd end up being forced into buying marginal cars at that interval. That's just idiotic. I'd rather stretch the cars and obtain a MUCH BETTER upgrade over a slightly longer period of time.
I get it- there are classes of people that enjoy senseless upgrades every 1, 2-3 years or whatever their interval is, more power to them. I'm actually grateful for the existence of these people, to some degree because they provide lots of us with nice, barely used cars to buy at significant discount. these people also take the depreciation hit / cause resale values to fall into the crapper, which also works great for picking up a lightly used vehicle. I mean if it wasn't for the lady that leased my car and only put 11500 miles on it and barely drove it, I wouldn't have been able to pick up an excellent, barely used condition car for basically 22K+ off sticker!
-Mike
on a car with a couple hundred thousand miles on it, either. Throwing some tires, brakes, or even dampers/springs on a car to milk another 50-60K out of an otherwise decent car is not a horrible value proposition as long as the expensive stuff like motor, trans, chassis are all fundamentally still pretty sound.
Hell, when I just got my GS serviced at the dealer in Watertown, I saw several vehicles being checked in or out that were a whole generation behind the current
ones. If one pays careful attention while driving, keep your eyes peeled for luxury cars that are older than 5+ years.... Lexus is one of the top seen cars in that
bracket. I see ****loads of the previous generation RX, GX, LX, and IS, GS, ES, and LS vehicles floating around. Most of these people could afford to buy a new
car... but why bother if it works well, and is familiar? Honestly people driving a car a generation or two behind the current aren't really losing out on much.
As far as the tech stuff goes, I see your point there- but honestly with some of that stuff there's a law of diminishing returns. I only "need" bluetooth for cell phone connectivity and maybe to stream music, as well as a decent factory stereo. These three things largely appeared in cars in abundance in the 05-08+ bracket. Otherwise any of the other new stuff? Nice, but not necessary; although things like the BSM and the BU camera have been in the GS line since the last generation of those cars were out, so that's not exactly "new" tech at this point. Stuff like LKA, radar cruise, phone app geegaw navigation things? Yawn. Nice to have but
nowhere near "necessary". Auto reviewers ***** about "infotainment" BS all the time, but if this really mattered, that's another thing that would have killed Lexus a
long time ago. Geegaws only really sell cars to a point, and after that point, only a minority group of weirdos are that obsessed with geegaws, and most of these weirdos are already driving Teslas or whatever. Most normal people care about how the car drives, how reliable it is (including reliability of basic functions) and to some degree how it looks- everything beyond that is usually parsley flakes/window dressing.
I might not be "most people" but I know my views are close to the views of a lot of other Lexus buyers.... otherwise this brand would have died out a long time ago, if everyone ascribed to the "50-100K then throw it away" system. If everyone believed that, than most of the cars produced today would still be junk, instead of the huge overall paradigm shift in sedan and SUV quality pushed forth by Toyota, Honda, and even Nissan, to some extent, that's been pushed over the past 20+ years. Consumers demanded cars that didn't blow up or turn into cash sieves at 100K and eventually they delivered. Even maintenance nightmare brands like BMW, MB, and Audi/VW have improved because of this, to some degree. (although those 3 are still far from Lexus, IMHO. ) Even Ford came a long way and got rid of their 5 digit odometers. (Ford pretty much had your philosophy internally- if someone really needs a 6 digit odometer, they should just throw it away at that point.... )
Also, with the mileage I put on cars (Minimum, 20K a year, on some occasions I hit over 30K a year) if I threw away cars every time they hit 100K "just cuz it has miles on it" If I wanted a "new car" at that interval, I'd end up being forced into buying marginal cars at that interval. That's just idiotic. I'd rather stretch the cars and obtain a MUCH BETTER upgrade over a slightly longer period of time.
I get it- there are classes of people that enjoy senseless upgrades every 1, 2-3 years or whatever their interval is, more power to them. I'm actually grateful for the existence of these people, to some degree because they provide lots of us with nice, barely used cars to buy at significant discount. these people also take the depreciation hit / cause resale values to fall into the crapper, which also works great for picking up a lightly used vehicle. I mean if it wasn't for the lady that leased my car and only put 11500 miles on it and barely drove it, I wouldn't have been able to pick up an excellent, barely used condition car for basically 22K+ off sticker!
-Mike
When any vehicle (Fiat, Chevy, Lexus, Rolls-Royce, etc.) ages the rubber bushings, belts, hoses, gaskets, wire insulation, etc. deteriorates. Struts, valve covers, rear main and transmission seals start leaking. After 'x' number of miles driven and so many start-ups engine accessories like the alternator, starter, water pump, timing belt/chain pulleys, air-conditioning system, etc. begin to fail. Soon thereafter the secondary engine components like the VVT-i system and fuel injectors start failing. Even if the engine internals remain sound the transmission doesn't last forever. The more cold-weather starts the engine has, the more wear and tear there will be. The more stop-and-go driving there is, the sooner the transmission will fail. But, how about all those fancy features and options that wear-out and fail as any car gets along in age? Things like the A/C system's servo motors that control air door dampers, fan motors, seat motors, window motors, sunroof motor, rear shade motor, stereo system amplifier, blind spot monitor computer module, door and trunk lock actuator/solenoids ... and the list goes on and on. Personally I do not care to deal with that stuff as it wears out, breaks and fails. I also do not like having much interior and exterior wear - seats, interior components, wheels, paint finish and glass. I like knowing the vehicle I'm driving is safe, will dependably get me to my destination and that everything works as it should and isn't costing me time and money to keep it going. Mileage and age sabotage that. But, I also like the vehicle to be reasonably modern (no more than one generation back), look good and unworn (finish unblemished with no scratches, dents or dings, wheels not curbed, interior seats, headliner and dash still like new) and have the features and technology that I use and enjoy having. Age sabotages all that.
When will things get so bad that it reaches the threshold of trading the car? Sadly, no one knows for sure. It's one of those things where you'll know when the time comes, when it happens. It could be in less than a year with a tick noise in the dash that drives you crazy...or it might not happen for eight or 10 years, but it will indeed happen. I prefer to [hopefully] err a little bit before bad things start happening...and before it starts showing its age in looks...or it starts driving me crazy. It's a personal thing...
PS - An obsession I have... The instrument cluster's clear plastic lens must be void of scratches. I simply cannot stand to look at an instrument cluster through a scratched-up lens. It drives me crazy. The one thing I look at when driving more than anything else (other than through the windshield) - is the instrument cluster. When the sun hits the instrument cluster I want to see a pristine lens with no scratches. I'll get rid of a vehicle for just that one reason alone. That is one reason (of many) that I will never have anyone clean the interior of my vehicles - too often the instrument cluster's clear lens is carelessly wiped with a dry or dirty cloth/towel that scratches the soft plastic. They might as well have put a dent in the driver's door with a baseball bat...
Last edited by bclexus; 12-09-17 at 05:44 PM.
12-09-17 | 10:25 AM
#24
Lead Lap
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,672
Likes: 1,184
From: NY
This thread is an interesting read! I try to buy my cars outright and hold them for at least 5-8years before I move on. I feel like once the car starts to nickel-dime you, its time to start questioning how much you want to spend to fix it versus just investing in something newer that maybe has a warranty and newer components.
Cars are not like phones or computers just yet where everyone must trade it in every year to be on the "cutting edge." However, consumers always want their cars to be reliable for the length of its ownership and I think Lexus makes cars that suits both sides - the cars are built to last and the newer cars have just enough "new" in-them to attract buyers.
The smartest thing they did with the 4GS was make it handle and drive like a real sport sedan, taking cues from the Germans and then moving away from the "boring" styling to push the envelope a bit. Couple that with the fact that the brand has proven this engine/transmission and component selection is very reliable makes it appeal to those longevity holders too. Whether you hold it for a short span or long-term, its nice to know that the car is built for both in case you ever change your mind!
12-09-17 | 12:13 PM
#25
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 371
Likes: 16
From: PA
Reached that "dark side" last year and its not as dark as you think! You still have your powertrain warranty as well so keep that in mind.
This thread is an interesting read! I try to buy my cars outright and hold them for at least 5-8years before I move on. I feel like once the car starts to nickel-dime you, its time to start questioning how much you want to spend to fix it versus just investing in something newer that maybe has a warranty and newer components.
Cars are not like phones or computers just yet where everyone must trade it in every year to be on the "cutting edge." However, consumers always want their cars to be reliable for the length of its ownership and I think Lexus makes cars that suits both sides - the cars are built to last and the newer cars have just enough "new" in-them to attract buyers.
The smartest thing they did with the 4GS was make it handle and drive like a real sport sedan, taking cues from the Germans and then moving away from the "boring" styling to push the envelope a bit. Couple that with the fact that the brand has proven this engine/transmission and component selection is very reliable makes it appeal to those longevity holders too. Whether you hold it for a short span or long-term, its nice to know that the car is built for both in case you ever change your mind!
This thread is an interesting read! I try to buy my cars outright and hold them for at least 5-8years before I move on. I feel like once the car starts to nickel-dime you, its time to start questioning how much you want to spend to fix it versus just investing in something newer that maybe has a warranty and newer components.
Cars are not like phones or computers just yet where everyone must trade it in every year to be on the "cutting edge." However, consumers always want their cars to be reliable for the length of its ownership and I think Lexus makes cars that suits both sides - the cars are built to last and the newer cars have just enough "new" in-them to attract buyers.
The smartest thing they did with the 4GS was make it handle and drive like a real sport sedan, taking cues from the Germans and then moving away from the "boring" styling to push the envelope a bit. Couple that with the fact that the brand has proven this engine/transmission and component selection is very reliable makes it appeal to those longevity holders too. Whether you hold it for a short span or long-term, its nice to know that the car is built for both in case you ever change your mind!
12-09-17 | 04:26 PM
#26
Lead Lap
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,672
Likes: 1,184
From: NY
I agree, I usually keep my cars 6 to 10 years. And yes, even Toyotas/Lexus will nickel and dime you. My last Lexus I had a door lock actuator, hood release cable and a few other things go around the same time, costing around 2K. Those were not about the miles but instead the age. Based on normal release a new GS will come out 2019 but I don't like first year so I will probably look in 2020/21 which will be 7 years and about 75K. Still have some $20K residual value for sale or tradein.
12-11-17 | 05:11 PM
#28
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 371
Likes: 16
From: PA
And then the one that I would love to avoid is the adjustable suspension going.
12-12-17 | 09:04 AM
#29
Well I don't know how old your Lexus is but my every accessory/creature comfort on my 2005 Lexus RX330 and 2004 Pontiac Vibe (AKA Toyota Matrix) are ALL working fine. If you have a BMW, then I would worry about their electronic gizmos giving up after the warranty is over based on my own experience. True, all thing will break eventually but there is a point wherein you have gotten so much service/value out of your car before it breaks that I don't mind spending to fix as long as they are reasonable in relation to what you bough the car primarily for i.e. going from point A to B, goes very fast, luxurious/comfort experience etc. This where Toyota/Lexus shines. Fixing something when they are still relatively new AND will cost a lot is what would be concerning to me.
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