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LS460 has some details vs the LS500 as well. The door map pockets pivot, the electric seat belt adjusters, the power seat button on the passenger seat. I am sure you can find more.
What at is interesting is how Lexus cost cut the LS500 in a few places. The seat belt adjustment lever is beyond absurd for a vehicle in this price segment. And Lexus cleverly removed the red light lock unlock indentifiers on top of the door sills and replaced them with pop up lock identification pegs. LC500 has the red red lights.
I will say, we saw a used white 460 with a light cream interior. The Ls460 is a great design. The LS500 does not look like it would be a enjoyable car to drive across the United States, the LS460 does however.
Yeah I was bummed about the seat belt height adjustments. No clue why they felt the need to do away with the power anchor heights...
Little things like that though that the car has always had, not convinced it has that big an impact on overall cost.
Good discussion. Glad we are having it. Removing the power seat belt adjusters, pivoting lower pocket with the light in it, removing the red light on door, no more door lock on door, no more power belt adjuster button all reduces cost. Probably all offset by the new design. Goal would not to add to the cost of the design. Agree or don't agree? Even the touchpad vs remote touch was designed to reduce cost.
Yeah probably so. I think with the seat belt anchor they looked at it and figured it was an area where people didn’t make many adjustments after the first adjustment and figured it was unused cost. Nobody else in the segment has a power anchor, including the S Class.
Good discussion. Glad we are having it. Removing the power seat belt adjusters, pivoting lower pocket with the light in it, removing the red light on door, no more door lock on door, no more power belt adjuster button all reduces cost. Probably all offset by the new design. Goal would not to add to the cost of the design. Agree or don't agree? Even the touchpad vs remote touch was designed to reduce cost.
Originally Posted by SW17LS
Yeah probably so. I think with the seat belt anchor they looked at it and figured it was an area where people didn’t make many adjustments after the first adjustment and figured it was unused cost. Nobody else in the segment has a power anchor, including the S Class.
These features removed individually doesn't bother me but collectively they do detract a little from the luxury aspect of the vehicle. The whole notion of a luxury flagship is to have an abundance of creature comforts that by definition are overindulgent and sometimes unnecessary, right? Otherwise, the differentiators with the mainstream or lesser luxury models become harder to distinguish. This honestly is still my "concern" with the 5LS. For instance, an item in the 4LS I wish was carried over and made even more extravagant was the gorgeous wooden fold-out tray in the rear. Put that behind the front seats if it couldn't be placed in the (now) fold-down arm rest control center, because the lack of it (even though it probably wasn't ever used in the 4LS) is a bragging feature to support flagship status.
These features removed individually doesn't bother me but collectively they do detract a little from the luxury aspect of the vehicle. The whole notion of a luxury flagship is to have an abundance of creature comforts that by definition are overindulgent and sometimes unnecessary, right? Otherwise, the differentiators with the mainstream or lesser luxury models become harder to distinguish. This honestly is still my "concern" with the 5LS. For instance, an item in the 4LS I wish was carried over and made even more extravagant was the gorgeous wooden fold-out tray in the rear. Put that behind the front seats if it couldn't be placed in the (now) fold-down arm rest control center, because the lack of it (even though it probably wasn't ever used in the 4LS) is a bragging feature to support flagship status.
Agree. Collectively as a whole, they distract from the entire luxury experience. What would be more concerning is what happens next?
Yeah, some of the door trim padding feel NuLuxe, this is why I said it didn’t exactly feel like a $100K+ car. There are some of things of to note, on the lower door panel there is that space between the front half and the rear part where the light is, instead of having one piece, the door is two pieces. There are some of things as well. But overall, the vehicle is well done. I did sort of see some Camry in the rear design. Especially where the trunk is.
Honeslty, it’s hard to believe that this is a long wheel base model. Does not look it at all.
Some of tbe design elements are really great. The wheel well and how the rims sit in the wheel areas was a nice design. I also love the wheel temp controls, you can feel the clicks each time the wheel hits a temp number, Rolls Royce uses dials.
An interesting thing was the size of the trunk. It does not seem that large. But perhaps it is.
The headliner was great. The seats were not too firm but not too soft. The control motors were nice and silent. I didn’t pay attention to the sunroof.
Sat in the F-Sport. To confirm the seats are full leather not NuLuxe, though there are small suede/alcantara inserts. It’s the pattern they put in it that makes it seem a bit cheap. The quad stitch in the available Luxury package is the one to go with. Overall this white on black F-Sport just seems like a large buttoned down sedan, but the doesn’t give me a flagship feel. Honest feels like an oversized GS in F-Sport trim was the vibe I was getting.
I figured since this was pretty extensive I would start another thread:
This afternoon I was able to sit in and drive at length a new LS500, highly loaded with an MSRP of $103,000. Car was black (caviar which is a metallic black) with a black interior, AWD w/ air suspension. 20" wheels on Bridgestone runflats. Power rear seats, etc...just not the executive package (no ottoman, no kriko glass for instance). I followed this drive up with an identical drive in my 2017 LS460L, RWD w/ air suspension with 19" wheels on Pirelli Cinturato P7 Plus tires. For the ride and drive portions all modes were tried, but largely both cars were in "COMFORT" suspension mode.
First off, let me begin by saying this is a VERY nice car. People who run it down and say that its not a nice car, or that it feels like a GS or whatever aren't being fair. Its a very nice car, but it is very different from the 2017 in a number of ways. I can absolutely see how a previous LS owner wouldn't like it. As a comparison, I see no reason why a previous LS owner wouldn't like an LS460. The LS500 is that different from what an LS has been traditionally.
I'll go through the exterior, interior, ride and drive and give my thoughts on the new car vs the old car.
Exterior:
I quite like the way the car looks in person. Despite physically being bigger than the outgoing car, it looks smaller in my opinion. The rear doors aren't as long, and the car is much lower. The hood specifically is much lower. The car is wider, but again looks narrower to me. Its a very different look than the outgoing car, I would say when I look at it I think more A7/CLS/6 Grand Coupe than I do A7/S Class/7 Series. It doesn't have the "presence" those cars have, which I don't personally think is a good thing. The car is very stylish, but it lacks elegance. The old car is not nearly as stylish, but it has an elegance, a maturity that the LS500 doesn't have, but which other "flagships" possess.
I quite like the PVD/Chrome 20' wheels everybody seems to hate. I also like that the car does have some chrome brightwork trim on it, which Lexus seems to be doing away with on other models.
Interior:
As others have said, this is really the car's strong suit. The interior quality and execution are fantastic. Clearly on another level from the previous car. Every material you touch is high quality, seat leathers are excellent, door materials are a step up, no hard touch plastic anywhere. One really significant exception is the adjustable seat belt height anchor which is no longer power operated, and is a very thin, cheap feeling plastic. Huge fail there IMHO. Ambient lighting is nice although I too wish that it had multiple color options. I like the floating door armrests.
But, the car is significantly tighter inside. The front of the roofline rakes down significantly as it approaches the windshield, and the windshield is much more steeply raked than before. Th result of this is the top of the headliner being a couple inches closer to your head, and lower down into your field of view than on the LS460, which has the result of making the cabin feel much tighter. The headliner on the LS500 w/ black interior is black vs grey in my LS460 w/ black interior which adds to that also. The way the front doors wrap up into the dash make the dash feel narrower too, which makes the cars feel narrower. Front seats are also narrower, and the console seems narrower. Car feels more intimate and sportier, but definitely less airy, and less roomy.
The back seat is a huge difference. With the front sear adjusted for me, the legroom in the back seat felt similar to that in my SWB 2015 LS460, if not slightly less, and when I got into the back seat of my 2017 LS460L behind the front seat adjusted the same way, it felt positively cavernous. I lay my briefcase down on its side in the rear passenger footwell behind the driver, and it doesn't fit without touching the base of the front seat, similar to my SWB LS460, in my LWB LS460L it has 4-5 inches before it touches the seat in front. The rear seating area of the LS500 is unquestionably significantly smaller than the outgoing LS460L. This would be a huge issue for me as the reason I wanted a LWB car was to have more room for my kids and so they wouldn't kick the seats. Well, they would definitely kick these seats, and with the wood trim on the back of the seats, it would be a big issue. When you consider that I felt rear legroom was barely comparable to a SWB LS460 and this car is 7 inches longer than that, I would rate that as poor.
Getting more positive, front and rear seating is excellent, front seat adjustability is excellent, big upgrade there. I most liked the massage, which you can definitely feel! I thought the ML audio was a big improvement from the ML audio in my car.
The big HUD is big, and sharp. I don't personally like HUD displays so it doesn't do much for me, but its there. Instrumentation in the LS500 I don't care for. The gauge cluster is too small, I prefer a standard side by side analog or full digital analog type readout (a'la Mercedes). The dash is much lower than in the LS460, and thus the navigation screen is also much lower and you look notably down at the screen vs it being up in the drivers field of view in the 460.
Ergonomics are good, the RTC is much improved and doesn't bother me at all. All switchgear and controls feel high quality. I hate the e-shifter.
Ride and Drive
Ride Quality: The ride quality was better, and closer to the LS460L than I anticipated, even on the 20s (which have similar sidewall height to the 19s on the outgoing car) and the runflats. The car was a little sharper over bumps, and less floaty/glidey on the highway than my LS460L w/air, even in comfort mode. The suspension allowed a little more of the grain in the roadway and coarseness in the pavement through to the cabin. Around town though pretty similar, impact absorption similar. If you replaced the runflats with the same tires I have on mine (Pirelli Cinturato P7 Plus) I bet the ride would become very similar, to just a hair firmer. I would say the ride is 90% as comfortable as my LS460L w/ air. Really surprised me.
Handling: HUGE improvement. I mean, wow. Planted, steady, very little roll in corners or pitch/dive in acceleration/braking. The handling/ride balance is truly excellent. Feels like a much smaller car. Took several offramps at a high rate of speed, really impressed. I would say the handling is 40% better than the LS460L w/air, and when you factor in that they achieved that while losing only 10% ride quality...thats a huge achievement! Truly is.
Cabin noise: The LS500 is by and large just as quiet as my LS460L w/air. Little more tire noise, but again Bridgestone Runflats, the difference was similar to how my car felt before I put the Pirellis on. On the road, the LS500 has just a hair more wind noise, which surprised me because you would think that would be the easiest thing to engineer out of a car, the new flush seals, etc. Very similar though.
Engine. So...the famous TTV6 vs V8 engine. So, the car is quick, power is good and strong, and it sounds great up in its rev-band for what it is. I drove the car on several roads that I drive on routinely, and when merging for instance I would look down and expect to be going 70 and find that I was doing 86-87. The accelerator pedal has a click in "WOT" indent at the bottom of its travel which I liked. So, power good. Here's the problem, its just not as smooth as the V8 either up at WOT or in other acceleration points commonly used when driving. Its louder, coarser. Its subtle, and its managed well, but the drivetrain does not feel as refined as what we had in the LS460, and I also don't feel its as refined as the I6 in the 740, or the TTV6 in the G90. I have not driven the 6 cyl S450. If I didn't have the LS460 to compare it to back to back I might not notice, but I do and I did and its there. In Sport + mode the engine note is totally different and is quite loud.
How does it fit in for me?
So as everybody knows I am a long time LS buyer, this is my 4th one, I had a 1998 LS400, a 2004 LS430, the 2015 LS460 SWB w/coil suspension and my current 2017 LS460L w/air suspension. So, how does the LS500 fit in? Am I sorry I went for the 17 LS460L instead of waiting for the LS500? The answer to that is no, I'm not. I am delighted to say that from a comfort perspective the car is very acceptable to me, which was my big worry. On the right tires I think it would be even closer to what I have, and the improved handling while not something that I really look for, would be an added bonus. However, the difference in style and feel, the dramatically smaller interior, and some of the design choices would keep me from going back in time and waiting, if I could. Having driven the car, I would have made the same deal I made last month in other words.
BUT, if I were at the end of my lease and the LS460s were gone and this was the only option I had in a new "Lexus LS" I would seriously consider it, and given the value proposition would likely get one.
So in short, I was impressed in some ways, not in others, and I agree if it had a V8 it would be a considerably better car.
Great write-up man. Agree with pretty much all of your assessment.
The car is very stylish, but it lacks elegance. The old car is not nearly as stylish, but it has an elegance, a maturity that the LS500 doesn't have, but which other "flagships" possess.
That's a great line
Sport+ is wild right?! I couldn't believe it was an LS making those noises hah
Overall not the game changer people were hoping for in regards to the competition, but a huge step for Lexus and future Lexus models IMO.
Great review. Like Hoovey’s review, you seemed fair. Not trying to take cheap shots at Lexus where you can. I think there are some more hard plastics, but you would have to give it a deeper look. I believe inside the door pockets are now hard, lower A pillar is not covered. And there is a plastic coat hook in the rear. But these are minor.
Great review. Like Hoovey’s review, you seemed fair. Not trying to take cheap shots at Lexus where you can. I think there are some more hard plastics, but you would have to give it a deeper look. I believe inside the door pockets are now hard, lower A pillar is not covered. And there is a plastic coat hook in the rear. But these are minor.
I did check these areas specifically. Lower A pillar is still padded, same as before. The inside map pockets are alcantara on the surface side (the side you can see) but are hard plastic on the back side (the side you can’t see and wouldn’t typically feel. Like you said the map pockets don’t open or expand how mine do.
And also as you felt the seat belt anchor adjustment is very cheap, easily the cheapest part of the interior.
Interior material quality is a step up from my car for sure.
One thing I wanted to note, the leather is similar to what I have, and still below the quality you can get with options in the competition. Napa leathers, exclusive leathers etc all better.
02-18-18, 05:54 PM
Otherwise, the differentiators with the mainstream or lesser luxury models become harder to distinguish. This honestly is still my "concern" with the 5LS. For instance, an item in the 4LS I wish was carried over and made even more extravagant was the gorgeous wooden fold-out tray in the rear. Put that behind the front seats if it couldn't be placed in the (now) fold-down arm rest control center, because the lack of it (even though it probably wasn't ever used in the 4LS) is a bragging feature to support flagship status.
