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Well, the 3.5L has the power of a 2.0L turbo with the economy of a small V8 That *is* sort of obsolete. The 3.0L turbo in the 340i (and soon 540i) is what you call a modern engine.
I can't think of many, if any at all, 2.0L turbo has over 300hp with real world fuel economy matching what the manufacturers would have you believe? What's so modern about the BMW engine? It has a turbo. The smaller engine naturally will have some fuel economy savings.
Lexus tries to sell obsolete technology packaged in a well made, reliable package but that does not work for a modern buyers anymore.
Keeping the same 3.5 liter engine as the top engine in GS for almost 20 years is a disrespect to Lexus buyers. The current F sport is slower than a lower-end 3-series - BMW 328. Lexus has to either up their game or stop positioning their cars as sporty. Hell, Q50 now has a 400 hp turbo 6.
I don't even want to mentioned the ancient 6-speed auto in all-wheel drive models. Why can't they put the 8-speed auto in those cars?
Really?. I think here are some observations that maybe facts.
Lexus has a great lineup sales wise. Their customer base values reliability over anything, and I mean ANYTHING. Infotainment, engine tech, safety features could all be outdated, but as long as Lexus vehicles are reliable and hold resale like they do, not a single peep will be uttered by Lexus customers. You might actually get pushback from customers when they change it up too much. Lexus has become the new old timer Cadillac/Buick.
So I agree with your phrase "20 year old tech", with aging motors, parts bins that are shared with older and newer toyota vehicles etc etc. But they do this for reliability. You just dont see thread upon thread of "Lemon Law Claims" or how many trips to fix the door jamb rattle etc.
Larger Turbo engines, LED hedlamps, Updated infotainment, and other niceties are slowly getting there, but just dont expect all of them to be on the 4th generation, expect them to be on the 5th generation (just as BMW or any other marque gets onto the Next big thing like carbon fiber in chassis), as Lexus will wait till the current German Marques have basically beta tested this tech in their current models.
In regards to the engines, Turbos engine performance is no doubt amazing, instant power much more usable power on tap. However fuel targets are interesting. Like any other engine, its all about driver input, if your gonna mash the throttle its gonna suffer, if you drive like a little ole grandma, then you`ll get better returns. Happens on NA and FI engines, but since FI engines have lot more variables and typically push more weight per liter then a bigger NA engine its going to be more apparent.
As of the 4th generation, the only thing Lexus will probably do, is add more trunk money cause they aint going to change up a midway through lifecyle vehicle, and with the market in heavy demand for Crossovers, and a timely lauch of a 5 strong SUV/Xover portfolio=BANK Compared to what BMW offers in a 5 series not much of difference on paper, reality though is much stark
535i
300 HP
300 TQ at 1200
vs
GS350
311 HP
280 TQ at 4800
The 2600 RPM peak TQ is what you feel on a testdrive, light to light, lane changes etc.
Really?. I think here are some observations that maybe facts.
Lexus has a great lineup sales wise. Their customer base values reliability over anything, and I mean ANYTHING. Infotainment, engine tech, safety features could all be outdated, but as long as Lexus vehicles are reliable and hold resale like they do, not a single peep will be uttered by Lexus customers. You might actually get pushback from customers when they change it up too much. Lexus has become the new old timer Cadillac/Buick.
So I agree with your phrase "20 year old tech", with aging motors, parts bins that are shared with older and newer toyota vehicles etc etc. But they do this for reliability. You just dont see thread upon thread of "Lemon Law Claims" or how many trips to fix the door jamb rattle etc.
Larger Turbo engines, LED hedlamps, Updated infotainment, and other niceties are slowly getting there, but just dont expect all of them to be on the 4th generation, expect them to be on the 5th generation (just as BMW or any other marque gets onto the Next big thing like carbon fiber in chassis), as Lexus will wait till the current German Marques have basically beta tested this tech in their current models.
In regards to the engines, Turbos engine performance is no doubt amazing, instant power much more usable power on tap. However fuel targets are interesting. Like any other engine, its all about driver input, if your gonna mash the throttle its gonna suffer, if you drive like a little ole grandma, then you`ll get better returns. Happens on NA and FI engines, but since FI engines have lot more variables and typically push more weight per liter then a bigger NA engine its going to be more apparent.
As of the 4th generation, the only thing Lexus will probably do, is add more trunk money cause they aint going to change up a midway through lifecyle vehicle, and with the market in heavy demand for Crossovers, and a timely lauch of a 5 strong SUV/Xover portfolio=BANK Compared to what BMW offers in a 5 series not much of difference on paper, reality though is much stark
535i
300 HP
300 TQ at 1200
vs
GS350
311 HP
280 TQ at 4800
The 2600 RPM peak TQ is what you feel on a testdrive, light to light, lane changes etc.
The RX is their best selling vehicle by far. That and the ES. See tons of IS but mostly leases because they're cheapest. The GS has been a dog of a seller since day 1.
I have to think the state of the economy has more to do with the lack of sales rather than the lack of turbos or superchargers.
You mean the GS? Nonsense. It been a lousy seller from day 1. The RX is what saves them.
They're passionless drives and as others have said, they've become Buick. Heck, Buick's become sportier. The average Lexus customer is old. They don't want great driving autos, the want rolling couches. I owned 3, 92 ES, 98 GS, 06 SC. None could be considered fun cars to drive. Dead steering. Reliable? Yes my BMW and MB are much more fun o drive. Shame. First time not owning a Lexus since selling the SC in 13. The only model I would look at now if I had to would be the GS and that doesn't really knock my socks off. I wish Lexus had a model like the new A4. I'd buy it in a second. I mean, when did you ever see CR not recommend a Lexus? Their still reliable (though some on this forum it seems have quite a few complaints. I'm a buyer, not a leasee. I took a chance with the 12 X3 and 13 MB E350 cab. So far so good. My next will be my last upscale car. It needs to be reliable. That's the only reason I would look at Lexus. No other reason. If I was leasing? Audi, BMW, and MB. I wouldn't even be thinking of Lexus. I really like that new A4 wither the virtual cockpit. It a great looking car as well.
Lexus, not so great looking. They went too far thinking that would bring passion. Idiots. Great driving cars will bring the passion, not cartoonish looks. They really blew it.
Made me interested in some of the other specs on that page for 4GS vs 2GS
2GS top speed 149
2GS turning circle 36.1
2GS drag .29
PS Not at all trying to say 2GS is better, just found it an interesting statistics comparison. So many advances in the newer car outside the simple old/new math comparison on a couple of metrics it's a no-brainer.
Made me interested in some of the other specs on that page for 4GS vs 2GS
2GS top speed 149
2GS turning circle 36.1
2GS drag .29
PS Not at all trying to say 2GS is better, just found it an interesting statistics comparison. So many advances in the newer car outside the simple old/new math comparison on a couple of metrics it's a no-brainer.
Yeah its hard to find 0-60 times and figure out what is going to be the best time. 5.5 is C&D's time, I think Lexus' is 5.7...in any event performance wise the GS400 and the modern GS350 are very similar, I recall magazines getting 5.5 in the GS400 too.
Thats really why the V8 in the GS was dropped, the performance gain over the 3.5 was not really significant if they were using the 4.6L out of the LS.
Its been many years since I've driven a 2GS, probably back in 2003 when I chose between it and my ES300, but handling wise and chassis wise the 4GS is a huge improvement over previous GS models based on my recollection of the 2GS, and much more recent experienced with the 4GS. I really liked my 4GS...
Originally Posted by abbeyrd
You mean the GS? Nonsense. It been a lousy seller from day 1. The RX is what saves them.
They're passionless drives and as others have said, they've become Buick. Heck, Buick's become sportier. The average Lexus customer is old. They don't want great driving autos, the want rolling couches.
The GS has actually had a quite positive sales history for Lexus. There were times when figures were over 30k units. Lexus' sales targets for the 4GS have always been ~24k units per year, and they've gotten close to that in years prior...the 4GS is actually a pretty good seller in other markets also which is what keeps it around here.
GS' sales history below. Note that sales after the comma are in Japan, so in years where there are two figures the first figure is what we're looking at. If you look at the bottom 4GS years you'll see that they're not far off that 24k figure. Remember there was no 2012 GS, so those 2012 GS sales are actually mostly 2013 4GS sales, that model came out in Feb 2012:
Note also that 4GS sales figures trended up each year which is unusual. Why? Incentives got steadily better each year...like I said this fall off for the refresh is because they rolled back those incentives.
FWIW, the 4GS is a great driving auto that is also a very nice riding car. If you look at the history in my signature you'll see that I'm overwhelmingly a ride biased guy, I like nice riding cars...I was very surprised how won over I was by the GS' duality.
Lexus' goal is to reduce their average consumer age...which they're doing through a combination of polarizing styling and excellent chassis. The styling I think works on some, not on others as much, but the new chassis are really excellent.
You mean the GS? Nonsense. It been a lousy seller from day 1. The RX is what saves them.
They're passionless drives and as others have said, they've become Buick. Heck, Buick's become sportier. The average Lexus customer is old. They don't want great driving autos, the want rolling couches. I owned 3, 92 ES, 98 GS, 06 SC. None could be considered fun cars to drive. Dead steering. Reliable? Yes my BMW and MB are much more fun o drive. Shame. First time not owning a Lexus since selling the SC in 13. The only model I would look at now if I had to would be the GS and that doesn't really knock my socks off. I wish Lexus had a model like the new A4. I'd buy it in a second. I mean, when did you ever see CR not recommend a Lexus? Their still reliable (though some on this forum it seems have quite a few complaints. I'm a buyer, not a leasee. I took a chance with the 12 X3 and 13 MB E350 cab. So far so good. My next will be my last upscale car. It needs to be reliable. That's the only reason I would look at Lexus. No other reason. If I was leasing? Audi, BMW, and MB. I wouldn't even be thinking of Lexus. I really like that new A4 wither the virtual cockpit. It a great looking car as well.
Lexus, not so great looking. They went too far thinking that would bring passion. Idiots. Great driving cars will bring the passion, not cartoonish looks. They really blew it.
If I wanted something that would put most new cars to shame I would have bought a late 60"s, early 70's muscle car and restored it while using upgraded components. I chose to buy something that I could enjoy while still being comfortable........a 4th Gen GS.
Yeah its hard to find 0-60 times and figure out what is going to be the best time. 5.5 is C&D's time, I think Lexus' is 5.7...in any event performance wise the GS400 and the modern GS350 are very similar, I recall magazines getting 5.5 in the GS400 too.
Thats really why the V8 in the GS was dropped, the performance gain over the 3.5 was not really significant if they were using the 4.6L out of the LS.
Its been many years since I've driven a 2GS, probably back in 2003 when I chose between it and my ES300, but handling wise and chassis wise the 4GS is a huge improvement over previous GS models based on my recollection of the 2GS, and much more recent experienced with the 4GS. I really liked my 4GS...
The GS has actually had a quite positive sales history for Lexus. There were times when figures were over 30k units. Lexus' sales targets for the 4GS have always been ~24k units per year, and they've gotten close to that in years prior...the 4GS is actually a pretty good seller in other markets also which is what keeps it around here.
GS' sales history below. Note that sales after the comma are in Japan, so in years where there are two figures the first figure is what we're looking at. If you look at the bottom 4GS years you'll see that they're not far off that 24k figure. Remember there was no 2012 GS, so those 2012 GS sales are actually mostly 2013 4GS sales, that model came out in Feb 2012:
Note also that 4GS sales figures trended up each year which is unusual. Why? Incentives got steadily better each year...like I said this fall off for the refresh is because they rolled back those incentives.
FWIW, the 4GS is a great driving auto that is also a very nice riding car. If you look at the history in my signature you'll see that I'm overwhelmingly a ride biased guy, I like nice riding cars...I was very surprised how won over I was by the GS' duality.
Lexus' goal is to reduce their average consumer age...which they're doing through a combination of polarizing styling and excellent chassis. The styling I think works on some, not on others as much, but the new chassis are really excellent.
I see way more 3's, 5's, C's, E's than GS's. My God, I actually see more SC 430's here than GS's.
When I lived in NY/NJ, I saw maybe 1 SC other than mine every 3 or 4 months. Here, I see 6 a day. Many more than GS's. RX, ES, and the cheap IS is what I see the most with the RX and ES being 1 and 2.
I see way more 3's, 5's, C's, E's than GS's. My God, I actually see more SC 430's here than GS's.
When I lived in NY/NJ, I saw maybe 1 SC other than mine every 3 or 4 months. Here, I see 6 a day. Many more than GS's. RX, ES, and the cheap IS is what I see the most with the RX and ES being 1 and 2.
Luckily we have actual sales figures that we can use to see how things actually sell.
The reason the GS doesn't do more volume is the ES. That non enthusiast buyer buys the ES, at BMW or MB they buy a 5 or E.
Luckily we have actual sales figures that we can use to see how things actually sell.
The reason the GS doesn't do more volume is the ES. That non enthusiast buyer buys the ES, at BMW or MB they buy a 5 or E.
The non enthusiast buyer at BMW usually goes in for a CPO 5 or E or a 3 series variant new. The ES is a cash cow for Lexus, and nothing in the german trio exists to rival it, though that might change with the recent change in FWD being unholy to FWD being able to bring in more $$$.
The non enthusiast buyer at BMW usually goes in for a CPO 5 or E or a 3 series variant new. The ES is a cash cow for Lexus, and nothing in the german trio exists to rival it, though that might change with the recent change in FWD being unholy to FWD being able to bring in more $$$.
Plenty of non-enthusiast buyers don't buy used cars. All you have to do is look around at the folks driving lightly optioned 5 series and E classes, I see lots of people that are clearly not enthusiasts. I also know several people who traded older BMW 5 Series in on new Lexus ES models and to them its a lateral move, it would never occur to them that they actually took a sizable step down. None of them even know what a GS is, and the 3 Series is too small.
Plenty of people walk in and buy the "midsize one", at BMW thats the 5, Mercedes its the E, at Lexus its the ES not the GS. These buyers don't care about FWD vs RWD, they don't even know the difference.
The GS has always been an understated car in the Lexus lineup. I remember my cousin pulling up in a 1996 Cherry Red GS300 with 20" wheels (it was his boss's car lol) and I couldn't get that image out of my head - the car was an unexpected headturner! I thought it was a german car at first...
I think there are certain expectations we all have when we spend money on a car. Buyers considering a GS or any lexus understand what the brand brings to the table. The appeal of reliability is very strong among buyers in all categories because most people want great value with longevity (during a 3yr lease or during long term ownership). Often times, these values (reliability, longevity, bang for the buck, etc.) become the priority because having to visit a service department or deal with a new technology that isn't up to par is more costly in the long run...people just can't and don't want to waste their time no matter how small or large the issue. Time is money!
On the other hand, there are folks who prefer the innovation that is brought on by taking a risk but you won't typically find that with Toyota/Lexus in their bread-and-butter cars because they want to appeal to a larger segment ..moreso than to just a subset or enthusiast crowd. Augmenting their lineup with more aggressive or sportier cars gives them at least some "play" in the sandbox of their counterparts.
No one can deny the appeal, prestige, power and engineering that often come along with a BMW, Benz, Audi or any German vehicle...if the sales numbers slip, we can be sure that the execs at Lexus or any car company will be concerned but the best part is that the competition is healthy for the manufacturers and even better for us as consumers. Eventually a car maker may just find the right balance between everything that is important to both them and the end-user...
Plenty of non-enthusiast buyers don't buy used cars. All you have to do is look around at the folks driving lightly optioned 5 series and E classes, I see lots of people that are clearly not enthusiasts. I also know several people who traded older BMW 5 Series in on new Lexus ES models and to them its a lateral move, it would never occur to them that they actually took a sizable step down. None of them even know what a GS is, and the 3 Series is too small.
Plenty of people walk in and buy the "midsize one", at BMW thats the 5, Mercedes its the E, at Lexus its the ES not the GS. These buyers don't care about FWD vs RWD, they don't even know the difference.
I`m referring to the ES to 5 Series transition. An ES buyer, whose vehicle maxes out at $42k (average price with all the bells on a nonhybrid) and lease offer of mid $300s wont want to jump into a 5 series with an average base price of $49k or lease at high $400s to mid $500s. It makes more sense for them to jump into a more aggressively priced 3 series or decked out CPO 5 series. Not saying their are exceptions to the rule, but the traditional flow is usually those in ESes tend to really not switch brands since the ES is an all rounder and unique in both design and value. GS owners, 5 series owners regardless of how expensive or basic their model is tend to jump around, and sometimes as you said see value with the ES more then a GS as theyre both sized equivalently, but pricing is where it really gets muddy.
The GS has always been an understated car in the Lexus lineup. I remember my cousin pulling up in a 1996 Cherry Red GS300 with 20" wheels (it was his boss's car lol) and I couldn't get that image out of my head - the car was an unexpected headturner! I thought it was a german car at first...
I think there are certain expectations we all have when we spend money on a car. Buyers considering a GS or any lexus understand what the brand brings to the table. The appeal of reliability is very strong among buyers in all categories because most people want great value with longevity (during a 3yr lease or during long term ownership). Often times, these values (reliability, longevity, bang for the buck, etc.) become the priority because having to visit a service department or deal with a new technology that isn't up to par is more costly in the long run...people just can't and don't want to waste their time no matter how small or large the issue. Time is money!
On the other hand, there are folks who prefer the innovation that is brought on by taking a risk but you won't typically find that with Toyota/Lexus in their bread-and-butter cars because they want to appeal to a larger segment ..moreso than to just a subset or enthusiast crowd. Augmenting their lineup with more aggressive or sportier cars gives them at least some "play" in the sandbox of their counterparts.
No one can deny the appeal, prestige, power and engineering that often come along with a BMW, Benz, Audi or any German vehicle...if the sales numbers slip, we can be sure that the execs at Lexus or any car company will be concerned but the best part is that the competition is healthy for the manufacturers and even better for us as consumers. Eventually a car maker may just find the right balance between everything that is important to both them and the end-user...
But for now...the passionate pursuit continues...
Its been 3 decades now, that event has not occurred yet. If it aint broke, it aint never gonna get fixed by anyone at Lexus. I expect the same motto to exist forever with toyo products.
05-09-16, 11:36 AM
