zes

So I have often wondered what I would want post my 300h and the only car that would excite me I think would be a Tesla. So I started just lurking around one of their forms.

I know I need a life but that is another story

One of the topics there was "what car is a good substitute for a Model S" and people proposed the usual culprits such as BMWs and Audi. To that there was a big pushback that those cars were dirty because the ICE and a general smugness of how clean Teslas are with no ICE.

I did a little research on that and learned that in fact because significant power here in the US is still produced by coal, a typical Tesla will generate as much CO2 per mile as a an ICE car which goes 40 miles per gallon.

So I thought that my 300h gives 40 miles per gallon. That means it is as clean as a Tesla. It is as large as a Tesla model S. It is as quiet at stoplights because the engine is off. I have seen data that it is quieter on the highway as it has less wind and road noise. It is just was luxurious as a Tesla and I think it is likely more reliable because it has Toyota and Lexus's decades of experience built in. I certainly have not heard the front wheels falling off any ES lately, like Teslas. The battery is likely to last longer because it is not discharged as deeply as that of a Tesla.

The only thing that the Tesla does better is acceleration. For that it costs twice the money. So I think the 300h is a really good poor mans Tesla.

What do you guys think?

I think an LS 600h would be even better comparison.

Agree or disagree?

I don't dare post this there as I would get flamed to death!

SW17LS

Uh, no

Its really a very different car, even when compared to an LS600hL. I appreciate the technology, and the experience of driving one is awesome, but as a "car" I actually don't care for them.

zes

Not to mention no range anxiety or fighting over charging cords with the 300h!

wowzer

While the tesla has a cool factor, it is limited by the lack of range and relatively long recharge times compared to gasoline. Regular gas and the Lexus Is good to go.

dchar

I don't care too much for Tesla either...

Should be interesting to see if Tesla ownership changes when the Model 3 is released...one of the biggest perks is the supercharging stations, but if more Tesla cars are using them, the long wait times will be horrendous. Not to mention, Tesla hasn't been very reliable so far.

vicpai

I have to respectfully, but vehemently disagree with most of what you have to say. I have also been dreaming of owning a Tesla model S, but for very different reasons than you!

I come from a very loyal "Lexus family" and practically worship my 2000 LS 400. I think it is the most insanely awesome vehicle ever created. A masterpiece second to none! So much so that I get sleepless nights thinking about what I'm going to replace it with. It has a DEAD QUIET, DEAD SMOOTH engine that PURRS so SILENTLY that you would be tempted to believe it is actually an electric vehicle (and the vehicle now has over 170K miles!!!). ....and the only thing I can imagine replacing it with is a Tesla Model S!!

Even under VERY hard acceleration you simply CANNOT hear the motor or the exhaust of my LS! This gives the sensation of EFFORTLESS power, so much so that I sometimes take it to the "grapevine" on California's I-5 and have a blast silently BLASTING past other vehicles at 90 mph like a roller coaster giving you a silent instantaneous SHOVE. THAT is pure joy to be experienced!!

So why not replace it with a newer Lexus you say? Not so fast! Okay let's start with the issues that make this decision an incredibly hard one:

First and foremost my LS is as reliable as the sun that comes up every morning. And as someone who "worships at the altar of reliability, durability, longevity and quality", this one is the most important factor. Okay, so Lexus has not disappointed in this area. They still make ABSOLUTELY BULLETPROOF reliable vehicles. In fact, it is sadly now the ONLY manufacturer that has not "sold out" in this aspect, as Acura (Honda) and the others have dramatically gone down the toilet tubes here.

Now, for why newer Lexi, including the newer RXs (THE WORST OFFENDER), the ES, the GX and even the new LS 460 (to a much lesser extent) have totally gone down the tubes.

In its quest to satisfy a MINORITY of morons out there, Lexus has destroyed their vehicles by chasing a stupid and rabid trend towards so called "sportiness" (a stupid catch phrase in every fools vocabulary these days).

A LUXURY car has to be LUXURIOUS FIRST AND FOREMOST. Nothing wrong with "tightening up" things A BIT, but NOT at the expense of destroying the ride and ruining the refinement! At least making the ride a bit stiffer provides a tangible benefit. It improves handling. I could live with that.

But making the engine/exhaust louder? (the WORST offence committed by Lexus). Absolutely zero benefit, except pleasing a few nuts who supposedly "want to hear their engines work hard for them" A most retarded argument that ruins the luxury experience, making the car feel unrefined, noisy and as though it were struggling.

And before you jump on me saying that I'm some 70 year old geezer who wants a float boat, think again. I may have just turned 38 (far younger than the typical LS buyer demographic), but I have enough sense in my head that I'm not going to pay tons of money for my so called "luxurious" daily driver to verbally assault my ears every day with its exhaust drone.

Sadly, in their desperation to satisfy this above mentioned nutty segment, Lexus' current offerings have become horrendous! Noisy, unrefined vehicles are now the norm (specifically the unrefined, noisy, loud and rough ENGINES). In the name of "sport" they have destroyed the vehicles' character with LOUD exhausts that drone in the low frequencies, and HARSH suspensions that are nothing like the former soft-riding ones that are what define a LUXURY vehicle!

So, in a nutshell, NO the ES is not anywhere near as QUIET as a Tesla. Quietness does not only encompass road and wind noise. Exhaust/Engine noise is very much a part of the equation (and to many like myself it is the WORST offender of all). I would rather have a little bit of wind and road noise on the freeway just to MASK that horrendous drone coming from the exhaust.

After writing this I realized that you were talking about the 300h. In all fairness, I haven't driven it, and I understand the latest generation has a 4 cylinder gas engine. I have however, driven the 2016 RX 450h and it is THE ABSOLUTE WORST. It drones very badly! The RX 350 is almost as bad and the ES 350 is only very slightly better in this repect. The LS 460's exhaust is significantly more subdued, but still surprisingly unrefined for a 90K car (and certainly substantially worse than my 16 year old LS 400). And the GX 460 has a disgusting sound like a vacuum cleaner on acceleration. Really pathetic!

So, in spite of the fact that I would never EVER have considered an electric vehicle in my wildest dreams, the sheer SILENCE of the electric powertrain makes it so very appealing, giving me my LS 400 feeling all over again (with all today's new technology like autopilot etc.).

But what you say about Tesla reliability rears its ugly head, and this is possibly the most important purchase consideration for me. So who knows, I just might have to "hold my nose" and buy an LS 460! ....a truly sad and pathetic situation indeed!

zes

I agree with you completely. I despise noisy engines, shifty transmissions and bumpy suspensions. The best thing about the ESh is that it has no gear shifts. In Eco mode if one is light on the gas one does not hear the engine at all. It is rough in sport mode, so I drive in Eco mode mostly. I keep the tire pressure very low, around 30 to 31 psi and that helps the ride a bit. Can't do much more than that. There are not many other choices out the unless you want to go to a big old boat like a caddy. I bet the Tesla suspension is not as soft as an LS though. Besides I hate wheels falling off even more than engine and road noise!
And supercharges? You should read how they bring out the worst in people and how they behave like kindergarten children not willing to share the stupid powner cord!

SW17LS

I have two questions for you based on the post above:

1. Have you driven newer Lexus vehicles?

2. Have you driven a Tesla?

Let me start by saying that I had a 1998 LS400 identical to yours, including the air suspension (which is VERY rare on a 2.5Gen LS). It was a great car, it was the car that got me into Lexus.

With that said, I don't really agree with you at all with your assessment of the newer cars. Not sure where this exhaust drone you're talking about is coming from, especially in a hybrid RX450h. I've driven really all of the modern Lexus models, and all the generations in between the old LS and what we have now...and I haven't ever driven any Lexus that exhibits any "exhaust drone".

I do agree that the LS400 and LS430 (which I've also had) had a better exhaust note than my LS460, and was just discussing that in the LS460 forum actually but its not at all objectionable...in fact the exhaust noise is quieter. The 400 and 430 have a nice ruble at 2-2.5k RPM that the 460 doesn't have.

In any event, no Lexus I have ever had or have ever driven has an audible powertrain or drivetrain sound at speed. Driving down the highway you never hear the engine in any of them, unless you apply throttle. No sounds, no drone.

The modern ES is the quietest ES ever made. Ride quality is very good, its gotten a little firmer as its gone forward but in a positive way IMHO. My modern LS is every bit as quiet as my 400 and 430 were. Ride is every bit as plush too. I had a new RX350 as a loaner a while back, it was the best riding, quietest RX I have driven, and I've driven the older ones many times over the years as loaners. No, the V6 powertrains aren't as smooth as the V8 in your LS but you have to compare apples to apples. The V6 powertrains have never been as smooth as the V8, thats not something thats changed.

Now for the Tesla. Have you driven a Tesla? The Tesla is actually not an especially quiet car. The powertrain is silent of course, but at speed, there is considerably more road and wind noise than my LS, and yes I would say moreso than an ES also. At highway speeds powertrain noise is a non-issue, and while I wouldn't call the Tesla "loud", I would say that its nowhere near as quiet as other luxury vehicles at its price level when on the road at speed.

If you look at edmunds tests, their sound meter tests agree with that.

This is the ES300h:



This is the LS460:



This is the Tesla:



Bear in mind also that the ES and LS tested here were not the latest refresh models, both of which are even quieter than these models. 4dB louder at 70MPH vs the ES300h is considerable, as is 6dB louder than the LS460.

zes

And my problem is that the front wheels fall off Teslas and they want to muzzle the owners by non disclosure agreements! Can you imagine the front wheel coming off at 70mph and you having your kids in the car with you? That is scary!

SW17LS

I think a lot of that is over stated, but you have to understand that Tesla is an upstart. When you purchase a Tesla you have to expect that they don't have generations of experience designing and building cars, there are teething issues.

You also have to read these reports with a grain of salt. Understand that the media looks to sell stories, and they are looking for negative stories about Tesla.

IMHO the Tesla is a remarkable piece of technology. Is it as remarkable a car? Not IMO. I would certainly take one, but if I'm spending $70-100k on one there are many, many cars I would buy first. For someone who that technology is more important though I can understand.

A Tesla does not have the ride and drive characteristics of a Lexus LS, even a 16 year old Lexus LS. Its just an entirely different car. Way sportier than the LS or ES.

bc6152

Considering all of the pros and cons of all Lexus vehicles and also those of the Tesla, the bottom line for me would be limited range and recharging. I can't afford the Tesla or even an LS so this is simply my opinion if I could... As far as "exhaust drone", I cannot understand where that is coming from. I've driven RX and ES vehicles and never experienced any annoying loud exhaust sounds. Now my Corvette is another matter...

vicpai

I'm glad you and I think alike on this! ...It is all relative I suppose, but one of the MOST IMPORTANT things for me in a Luxury vehicle is smoothness, quietness and refinement (and I'm especially referring to the ENGINE/EXHAUST here).

Actually even Caddy has stopped making the "couch on wheels" ultra comfy cars. Those had a very unique charm to them, but they did drive like a freighter at sea. My LS 400 comes very close to the CREAMY ride of those cars, while at the same time handling pretty impressively for a large soft car!

And yes, although I have not actually test driven the Tesla, I would imagine the suspension would not be anywhere near as soft as most of the Lexi (except maybe the horrendous 2010 - 2015 RX).

vicpai

Those sound meter test results can vary depending on road surface driven, wind conditions at the time etc. I'm talking about a subjective evaluation (what it feels like to my ear).

Not only have I driven these models, but I have driven them EXTENSIVELY! And no, I've not test driven a Tesla. I am just reasoning that an electric powertrain is bound to be very silent, based on my experience with other cars such as the Nissan Leaf I once rode in briefly.

I actually purchased a 2013 RX 350 last year (a Lexus CPO with 18K miles). A one-owner spotless vehicle that was practically new! After haggling with the dealer about the exhaust drone several times, I was made to understand that it was just how the engine sounded. And they were right. I drove several loaner vehicles and ALL OF THEM made the exact same nasty sound, roughly around the 2300 RPM mark when the vehicle was on any sort of grade (even a slight uphill grade). After being totally disgusted with it, I sold it for a $4500 loss (luckily I got a very good deal on it when I bought it). The suspension was also harsh in my opinion. And later I found out that I was not the only one that felt this way! See the discussion below. My experience was EXACTLY like theirs

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/rx-...ine-sound.html

This is also not the first time I'm driving an RX. My brother had a "fully loaded" 2002 RX 300 back in the day and I've driven that vehicle on MANY MANY occasions. Yes, as you say it was not as smooth or quiet as my LS 400, but it was very close, and the ride was very soft and cushy! Nothing like the 2013.

Recently I gave my LS 400 to Lexus of Westminster for a timing belt and water pump replacement and specifically requested a 2016 RX 350 to see if they had dealt with this issue. There was a lot of fanfare that lots of people had complained about this particular issue (at least that is what the dealer service rep told me) and that they had added tons of sound insulation etc. At first it appeared they had made it quieter. But after driving it extensively for 3 days I can 100% say that the drone is still very much present. It is SLIGHTLY subdued compared to the 2010-2013 models, and it has shifted to a different RPM range (roughly 1800 - 2100 RPM). And people echo this sentiment as well. See the discussion below. I 1000% agree with these people!

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/rx-...vibration.html

So obviously, this vehicle has been struck off my purchase list. I don't care how beautiful the interior is (yes, it is), and how fantastic the interior gadgets are (and yes, they are). And I have no doubt it will be hyper reliable. But there is no way I'm paying over 50K for something that sounds like that. And this is truly sad, because at least "on paper" this is exactly the vehicle I NEED right now (size wise, AWD, etc.)

Then just out of curiosity I went to check out the Acura MDX and it blew me away. The engine and exhaust were silky smooth and the sound was "very linear" and subdued. Yes, not anywhere near as good as my LS 400, but far superior to the RX. It is worth mentioning that the new RX RIDE QUALITY has improved substantially over the older model where it is pretty good now (and possibly a hair better than the MDX). But of course, I was not going to purchase the MDX because it now has very mediocre reliability, as seen from all the complaints on www.mdxers.org, , which is further confirmed by Consumer Reports.

When I returned the loaner RX 350 I asked a salesperson to test drive RX 450h and after taking it for a long extended test drive was shocked that it was even worse than the 350. It starts very silently, then shortly the engine comes on in a rather "jerky' fashion (not seamless at all). When it does come on it drones. Even a couple of car mags have noticed this.

Lastly I test drove a GX to see if that would suit me. It after all has a V8, which should be smoother (and I had driven a friend's GX 470 in the past and recall it being "nice and smooth"). First, the new GX's ride was outstanding! Very very compliant and absorbent (much more so than the new RX), but the engine was not super smooth or super quiet (like the GX 470 I recall), and had a weird vacuum cleaner-ish sound when accelerating. But it was MUCH SMOOTHER AND QUIETER than the RX.

And finally, I rented a 2007 LS 460 from turo.com for a day, to thoroughly check it out. By far it is the smoothest and quietest current Lexus. I'm not sure but on second thoughts it might be just as quiet as my LS 400. The reduced wind and road noise might be making the engine appear subjectively a tad bit louder. But I did hear a very faint "tappet-like" noise coming from the engine. A new 2016 LS 460 I test drove at the dealer did not have this noise and appeared even quieter (but that test drive was too brief for me to make an evaluation).

Mike728

How is any of this related to the OP's topic? The RX is not an ESh and you admit to never driving a Tesla.

The Tesla and ESh are two completely different vehicles. One was designed as an entry level luxury hybrid and the other a purely electric luxury sports car. They serve two different needs/wants. If you need to drive across country you wouldn't be taking the Tesla, unless you meticulously planned out your trip to map any available recharge stations. And then it would probably take twice as long. Not the way I would want to cross the country.

So, I do not agree that the ESh is a poor man's Tesla. More of a well to do man's Prius.

LexBob2

I agree. The comparison borders on apples to oranges. Different vehicles, demographics.