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I'm sort of like Bitkahuna; I want to say something nice - I don't want to say something negative.
Unless you're a taxi doing 300,000 miles, it's going to take a long time to pay off the initial premium, and don't forget to buy the new battery pack that costs thousands of dollars every 8 years or so.
Meanwhile, I tested an ES300h recently, and the rear end styling of the hybrid isn't as attractive as the gasoline model, trunk is diminished in size, and I find that the battery pack is too small in Amp-Hour capacity.
I put the ES in EV mode, and press the throttle a little too much, and the ICE kicks in.
Even if I'm very gentle on the throttle, because the battery is too small in capacity in the interests of eating less trunk space, keeping the weight down to minimize the effects on handling - the EV range is so poor; the ES300h would be far better if Lexus put in a bigger battery, and locate that battery under the trunk rather than behind the rear seats, and just accept that the hybrid will be a much heavier motor vehicle, but then we end up with a "plug-in" hybrid, and just as well, because that's what they need.
An even worse problem than the gasoline-electric hybrid is that once the 2.5L in-line four cylinder ICE kicks in, it is so weak and so coarse.
A bigger battery pack would do wonders for the ES300h, because combined with bigger electric motors, the ES300h could have much better acceleration and/or longer range, in the way of the Tesla Model S.
And the more powerful electric motors would compensate for the weak and coarse 2.5L in-line four.
Nevermind that such a hybrid with a bigger battery and bigger electric motors would be heavier and cost more.
The only gasoline-electric hybrid that I would presently buy is the GS450h.
It has more bottom end torque, and a flatter torque curve.
When the conventional ICE does kick in, it does so with both power and refinement.
But I didn't buy one because I could not justify the initial, nor the ongoing costs of a replacement battery pack.
Plus the diminished trunk space, and the effects of an additional 300 lbs on handling.
And once again, I don't like the way Lexus styles their hybrid air diffusers - the gasoline model air diffusers with polygonal exhaust tips look better in my opinion...
I drove the ES300h extensively compared to the ES350 in 2012 and the powertrain just did not do it for me at all, not nearly as smooth and refined. Yeah it gets better economy, but if I cared more about economy than a smooth operator I'd look at a Camry Hybrid.
That is a hybrid I like, 0-60 in 3.0 sec or less, but that hybrid system is all about performance, instant torque, eliminating turbo lag, and not fuel economy, it will aid in fuel economy in certain scenarios though.
In most cases hybrids make no sense, it takes a very long time to even break even for the premium you pay for them and you could be looking at a very expensive battery replacement down the line if you plan on keeping the hybrid a long time or putting a lot of miles on it to try to recoup costs which will erase any kind of savings you had from fuel and will be even more money out of your pocket.
Yes, I find V6-hybrids work much better than 4 cylinder hybrids.
I have never driven the Acura NSX II Hybrid, but I imagine it would be at least as good as the GS450h hybrid - silky smooth V6, and powerful too.
Theoretically, Lexus may find that a 2.0L 4 cylinder turbo hybrid works much better than the present 2.5L four cylinder hybrid, and in particular, use a significantly larger capacity compact lightweight lithium ion battery, and mount it under the trunk like the IS300h available in Europe, with no spare tire, and no run flats either, but a can of puncture rubber spray...
On the upside, gasoline-electric hybrids do have lower fuel consumption and lower emissions, though the amount of greenhouse gases produced in generating electricity and the greenhouse gases produced to manufacture and dispose of the battery packs every 8 years is something else...
I'm sort of like Bitkahuna; I want to say something nice - I don't want to say something negative.
Unless you're a taxi doing 300,000 miles, it's going to take a long time to pay off the initial premium, and don't forget to buy the new battery pack that costs thousands of dollars every 8 years or so.
Meanwhile, I tested an ES300h recently, and the rear end styling of the hybrid isn't as attractive as the gasoline model, trunk is diminished in size, and I find that the battery pack is too small in Amp-Hour capacity.
I put the ES in EV mode, and press the throttle a little too much, and the ICE kicks in.
Even if I'm very gentle on the throttle, because the battery is too small in capacity in the interests of eating less trunk space, keeping the weight down to minimize the effects on handling - the EV range is so poor; the ES300h would be far better if Lexus put in a bigger battery, and locate that battery under the trunk rather than behind the rear seats, and just accept that the hybrid will be a much heavier motor vehicle, but then we end up with a "plug-in" hybrid, and just as well, because that's what they need.
An even worse problem than the gasoline-electric hybrid is that once the 2.5L in-line four cylinder ICE kicks in, it is so weak and so coarse.
A bigger battery pack would do wonders for the ES300h, because combined with bigger electric motors, the ES300h could have much better acceleration and/or longer range, in the way of the Tesla Model S.
And the more powerful electric motors would compensate for the weak and coarse 2.5L in-line four.
Nevermind that such a hybrid with a bigger battery and bigger electric motors would be heavier and cost more.
The only gasoline-electric hybrid that I would presently buy is the GS450h.
It has more bottom end torque, and a flatter torque curve.
When the conventional ICE does kick in, it does so with both power and refinement.
But I didn't buy one because I could not justify the initial, nor the ongoing costs of a replacement battery pack.
Plus the diminished trunk space, and the effects of an additional 300 lbs on handling.
And once again, I don't like the way Lexus styles their hybrid air diffusers - the gasoline model air diffusers with polygonal exhaust tips look better in my opinion...
As big of a fan as I am of rear tailpipe tips, I actually find the ES hybrid's rear styling sportier. The full-width air intake is what some sports cars come with. If Lexus could integrate some chrome tips within it, it would be the ultimate combination. I also find the hybrid's curvy rims sportier. Oddly, the non-hybrid photo above appears to have the hybrid's rims. Maybe it's a U.S. thing.
One other point about hybrids. Some people have them just to be green. I don't think that came into play with the pizza delivery dude, though.
As far as gas cost savings vs. a non-hybrid go, I think the Prius makes a strong case based on it's size and price. Last I checked, it can be had in the low $20's. The same-sized Corolla costs about the same, but does not get the high mileage of the Prius. So if one were shopping for a smaller new Toyota sedan, the Prius has a very attractive gas savings option the same-price Corolla does not have. You can bet there are masses of non-car people walking Toyota dealership lots looking at nothing but numbers on the window sticker and car sizes. They are thinking, "I want a Toyota sedan. I want to pay this much. I want it to be this size." The Prius suddenly appears with it's 55 mpg rating and SOLD!
Yes, I find V6-hybrids work much better than 4 cylinder hybrids.
I have never driven the Acura NSX II Hybrid, but I imagine it would be at least as good as the GS450h hybrid - silky smooth V6, and powerful too.
Theoretically, Lexus may find that a 2.0L 4 cylinder turbo hybrid works much better than the present 2.5L four cylinder hybrid, and in particular, use a significantly larger capacity compact lightweight lithium ion battery, and mount it under the trunk like the IS300h available in Europe, with no spare tire, and no run flats either, but a can of puncture rubber spray...
but the math just doesn't make sense!!! LOL!! The non-hybrid GT-R is faster and cheaper (just being sarcastic).
Yes, V6 hybrids can be powerful & smooth, and economical, but the diminished trunk space, the extra weight, and the costs [maths].
Presently, there is NO perfect type of driveline design.
V6 hybrids are not as economical, nor pollution free, nor as cheap as four cylinder hybrids, but they have much more power & refinement than four cylinder hybrids.
Conventional internal combustion ICE's have pretty good trunk space, pretty good linear performance, the best in agility & value, but are thirstiest & most polluting.
Electric vehicles have the best trunk space, best linear acceleration & lowest pollutants, but they have diminished cabin space due to battery pack under the floor.
EV's have the most compromised range.
EV's also have the most compromised agility due to the most excess weight.
Presently, the dollar value in EV's simply doesn't add up, such that they are extremely expensive to buy.
Hydrogen fuel cell powered electric vehicles HFCEV have the second best range behind four cylinder hybrids, and the second lowest pollution behind electric vehicles.
However, HFCEV's have the second most diminished cabin space behind EV's due to battery pack under the front, and a pressurised hydrogen gas tank under the rear seats.
HFCEV's have the most diminished trunk space & presently even worse than hybrids no thanks to the second battery pack behind the rear seats.
There also seems to be a second pressurised hydrogen gas tank in between the rear wheels???
HFCEV's are amongst the slowest in linear performance being only ahead of four cylinder hybrids, and are almost as heavy & agility compromised as EV's.
HFCEV's are actually even more expensive than electric vehicles EV's to produce, and requires the greatest upgrade to existing infrastructure....
changed thread title this isn't about cars like the nsx.
And new cars only too??
If yes ignore...if not...run the numbers on the car I posted above -- $9900 2013 Prius C vs 2013 Honda Fit over 5 years and 15000 miles per year. I'm on an airplane right now....but I'll do it later if you don't.
Yes, V6 hybrids can be powerful & smooth, and economical, but the diminished trunk space, the extra weight, and the costs [maths].
Really only the extra weight comes into play here with my Highlander. It does have slightly more horsepower and lots more torque than the non-hybrid to help make up for it, but on a vehicle like a 3 row crossover it doesn't bother me much. It's a very smooth and efficient drivetrain. As I discussed previously up the thread, the math points to a break even at 3 years on my lease, and there is no diminished trunk/cargo room.
Even if we are not able to completely break even on the hybrid cost, we're totally okay with that. The main reasons we wanted it were the smooth way it drove and the hybrid has a little over 100 more miles of range on a tank of gas. Since it's my wife's daily driver and she's carting the kids around, the convenience of fewer fill ups is worth some cost to us.
When we went test driving, we only drove the hybrid so I could show her how much she wouldn't like it, so I was very surprised that we both liked it a lot.
And new cars only too??
If yes ignore...if not...run the numbers on the car I posted above -- $9900 2013 Prius C vs 2013 Honda Fit over 5 years and 15000 miles per year. I'm on an airplane right now....but I'll do it later if you don't.
i'd probably rather stick a fork in my eye than drive a 3 year old featureless prius c around, but like you said, i'm not into beaters, but i can understand why poor souls who do tons of driving, particularly in bad traffic are, although I still don't think the economics of having an extra car work for most.
09-26-16, 02:52 PM
