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I love Lexus but I also LOVE the result of this survey. They need to wake up and fix all of these little things. ALL of my last 4 Lexus vehicles have PROBLEMS, minor problems but it is still problem.
It's not infotainment. Infotainment was the same in 2016, 2015, 2014 & 2013...why wasn't IQS trounced in those years?
Expectations on what a car should be able to do (tech wise) have gone up since 2013. It's unacceptable that my 2015 has an infotainment system that is slower to start up than my 2007. Not to mention the lag that permeates through the system. Remote touch doesn't bother me though
The other thing to consider is that Lexus' performance is not much different than how they did 10 years ago when they were at the top of this survey, everybody else is doing markedly better. Look at these figures from 2007, look how much lower the average is now and note Lexus' score vs today in 2017:
If this is what matters to you, then a Porsche or BMW is justified. This survey ranks it the equivalent of Hyundai, and ahead of Honda. I think common sense should prevail, but all kidding aside BMW is significantly above Honda, Toyota, and lowly Lexus, if based upon this survey.
OF COURSE this matters...public perception is YUGE.:-)
I love Lexus but I also LOVE the result of this survey. They need to wake up and fix all of these little things. ALL of my last 4 Lexus vehicles have PROBLEMS, minor problems but it is still problem.
AGREED! They are dropping the ball and slacking in the areas that made them number one...QUALITY. This was my point!
The other thing to consider is that Lexus' performance is not much different than how they did 10 years ago when they were at the top of this survey, everybody else is doing markedly better. Look at these figures from 2007, look how much lower the average is now and note Lexus' score vs today in 2017:
You nailed it! The competition has caught up, and actually improved their quality at a larger rate than Lexus.
"Average defects/100 vehicles" went from 125 in '07 down to 97 this year. Lexus was a leader in '07, but a follower in '17. I believe their decrease in ratings such as this are reflective of their surrender of "best luxury car" status to BMW/Mercedes.
Infographic: 2017 U.S. Initial Quality Study Key Stats
June 21, 2017The J.D. Power U.S. Initial Quality StudySM (IQS), published since 1987, examines problems experienced by original vehicle owners during the 1st 90 days of ownership. Initial quality is determined by the number of problems experienced per 100 vehicles (PP100), with a lower score reflecting higher quality.
This year’s study shows an 8% improvement in quality. Once again, the Korean brands outperform their Japanese, domestic, and European competitors. And, Kia ranks highest overall for a 2nd consecutive year.
In the infographic that follows, we present some key statistics and findings from the 2017 U.S. Initial Quality Study.
Just reading the info you posted.
I am pretty sure the issues for stem from their remote touch infotainment system. The system is appalling. And the idea to not have a dedicated A/C or radio presets is just silly. Now, why all of sudden has this issue come up after the system has been available since 2012 does not make sense.
Of course it has to do with how satisfied somebody is with their car, the fewer "problems", the more satisfied the owner is.
Things are not so simple. For example comparatively the Tesla Model S is not a reliable car it is quite a bit below industry standard. But owner satisfaction is sky high anyway people love the car and would not trade it for anything. A highly desirable car can be unreliable but people still love them, yes overall they don't like the car as much but satisfaction is a relative measure compared to other makes. A very reliable car can still show low satisfaction because the car itself is not enjoyable to drive and own.
Originally Posted by mmarshall
I couldn't care less about cup holders.....broken or otherwise. I keep my eyes on the road, not my drink LOL.
Good for you, no sarcasm. I am beyond sick of people thinking that driving is secondary to other things when behind the wheel.
That's possible. But like me and you know, there is that one friend of ours that uses a window phone right or better yet my dad that does not even know how to turn his phone's Bluetooth on how would he link to the apple carplay or android auto?
Truth is there will always be something.
For those left that use a windows phone and those that can't turn on BT they must not be using the infotainment system anyway So what would they complain about. I don't think these owners make a blip in the ranking.
Yes, my suspension and wheel are AMG version.
You are talking about reliability, I'm talking about driving quality.
Mercedes E400 is far superior on the road and over the bumper than GS350 does.
and E400 (including my previous E350) has very sold feeling, no any rattle or cracking noise.
I'm actually talking about the effect of suspension on handling versus comfort/NVH - and how NVH affects perceived customer satisfaction/reliability surveys etc.
Neither you or I, or anyone else really knows the true torsional rigidity/bending stiffness of the E Class.
To do that, we'd have to purchase at least two E Class Benzes, place them on a rig; bend the first E Class, and twist the second E Class.
This is similar to crash testing - it is ruthlessly expensive.
We can only "subjectively" feel how solid the body structure is.
Originally Posted by sears1234
totally agree.
My new mercedes e400 has very firm suspension, it runs very very solid and quiet.
This is not true.
Benz AMG Sports suspension is only firm on the dampers [shock absorbers], and not actually firm on the coil springs.
Because their coil springs are still quite soft, their coil springs are compliant and absorb the shock such that their E Class body "feels" solid over bumps, with few creaks/rattles.
The 4GS is unusually both firmly sprung and damped.
That's why the shock is transmitted directly to the 4GS's body structure.
Because of the firmer coil springs, even if the 4GS didn't creak and rattle immediately, long term, I wouldn't be at all surprized if the 4GS creaked and rattled more than the old E350 or new E400.
Coil springing is a compromize.
Soft springing has certain good and bad points; while firm springing also has certain good and bad points.
Soft springing gives comfort and a feeling solidity to the body structure, however this comes at a cost to weight transfer to the outside wheels, resulting in loss of both initial grip for sharp steering response [agility], and terminal grip on the skid pan [cornering speed].
Presently and unfortunately, there is no perfect suspension system.
To give you a rough idea of how 3GS, E350, 535i and 4GS compare for damping control, look at the graph below, or watch the entire video.
Whenever we see the word "control", we immediately think of damping [nee shock absorbers].
The E350 is very soft in damping control as usual.
As usual, BMW 5 Series damping is generally firmer than Benz E Class damping.
While the 4GS is unusually firm in damping control.
Although AMG damping is firmer than standard, it is still not as firm as 4GS damping, especially 4GS F Sport damping on Sports+ Mode.
C/G = Current Generation 3GS
N/G = New/Next Generation 4GS
Tires are also a compromize, and the soft quiet tires generally don't handle and grip as sharply as the stiffer sidewalled, harder and noisier riding tires.
The bottom line is that firm damping doesn't really have anything to do with the body structure feeling solid from the absence of creaks and rattles.
It is the tires, air pressures, bushings, suspension subframe hydraulic fluid filled mounts, and in particular, the soft coil springs that really absorbs the shock, to reduce impact shock transmissions to the body structure which causes creaks and rattles...
And if it is the RTI, why all of a sudden in 2017 is it destroying them while it didn't in 2016, 2015, 2014 or 2013?
It could be that a lot of respondents have been exposed to other systems or have other vehicles with better systems and realize the one in their Toyota or Lexus isn't up to par these days.
DETROIT -- How do the quality ratings for the 2017 Tesla Model S and Model X compare to competitors?
They don't, based off J.D. Power's 2017 U.S. Initial Quality Study that was released Wednesday. That's not because Tesla Inc. doesn't make quality vehicles, but because it doesn't allow J.D. Power access to its customer registration data for the survey.
"I don't know that they're hiding anything. They just don't want to participate," Dave Sargent, vice president, global automotive at J.D. Power, said when releasing the annual survey results here at an Automotive Press Association meeting. "It's not like their cars are falling apart."
For the annual study -- which started 30 years ago -- J.D. Power collects customer registration data from each state. It uses that information to send surveys to consumers who have leased or purchased a new vehicle for that given model year to report any problems they may have experienced in the first 90 days of ownership.
But some states, including Tesla's home of California, require automakers to grant state officials permission to release the data.
All automakers aside from Tesla have granted such access, according to Sargent. J.D. Power, he said, receives about 30 percent of Tesla's customer data. That amount is not enough for the company to place the automaker in its Initial Quality Study, which is viewed as an industry benchmark for quality.
"They don't want to play this game," he said. Later adding, "We're hoping they will come to the party because we're increasingly getting this question."
Historically, small sample size has prevented some automakers from appearing in the annual rankings in both the Initial Quality Study and the J.D. Power Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout Study. Other smaller brands, including Smart this year, have been included in the study but not ranked because of a lack of sample size.
J.D. Power has evolved the study in recent years to focus more on emerging technologies of new vehicles, a space Tesla has always claimed to lead with the Model S and Model X.
The Tesla models, since their debut, have included a large center console screen and typically have been first to market with many advanced systems and technologies, including its highly watched Autopilot system that has drawn criticism due to reported accidents.
The launches of both vehicles -- particularly the Model X -- came under some criticism due to delays and reported quality issues involving new components such as falcon-wing doors.
Tesla report
In March, J.D. Power released a special report on Tesla, called "Tesla: Beyond the Hype." According to a release, problems associated with the Model S and Model X have little influence on the overt affection owners have for these cars and the brand.
The report, according to J.D. Power, was based on multiple focus groups of Tesla owners and an in-depth evaluation of Tesla models against competitive vehicles by automotive research experts at J.D. Power.
If the methodology is flawed, it's always been flawed. Lexus used to perform above the competition and now they don't, the reasons for that need to be addressed.
as you and others have said, the competition has caught up, and apparently gone ahead. it's not that lexus has become 'worse', just relatively perhaps. but as i've written many times, these 'reports' and 'surveys' are more about clicks and PR than much value, because if a rating goes from say 70 problems per hundred vehicles to 80 problems per hundred vehicles and drops like a rock in ratings, that going from .7 problems per car to .8 problems per car, hardly a 'crisis'.
Originally Posted by SW15LS
And if it is the RTI, why all of a sudden in 2017 is it destroying them while it didn't in 2016, 2015, 2014 or 2013?
perhaps because consumers are more sophisticated these days and expect things to work as well or better than their cell phones, tablets, etc. and many cars have HORRIBLE user interfaces.
06-22-17, 11:35 AM
Tesla
