Lexus Loses Its Luster in J.D. Power Quality Study
#92
Expectations on what a car should be able to do (tech wise) have gone up since 2013. It's unacceptable that my 2015 has an infotainment system that is slower to start up than my 2007. Not to mention the lag that permeates through the system. Remote touch doesn't bother me though
Last edited by Allen K; 06-22-17 at 12:00 PM.
#93
The other thing to consider is that Lexus' performance is not much different than how they did 10 years ago when they were at the top of this survey, everybody else is doing markedly better. Look at these figures from 2007, look how much lower the average is now and note Lexus' score vs today in 2017:
#95
If this is what matters to you, then a Porsche or BMW is justified. This survey ranks it the equivalent of Hyundai, and ahead of Honda. I think common sense should prevail, but all kidding aside BMW is significantly above Honda, Toyota, and lowly Lexus, if based upon this survey.
#96
AGREED! They are dropping the ball and slacking in the areas that made them number one...QUALITY. This was my point!
#97
The other thing to consider is that Lexus' performance is not much different than how they did 10 years ago when they were at the top of this survey, everybody else is doing markedly better. Look at these figures from 2007, look how much lower the average is now and note Lexus' score vs today in 2017:
"Average defects/100 vehicles" went from 125 in '07 down to 97 this year. Lexus was a leader in '07, but a follower in '17. I believe their decrease in ratings such as this are reflective of their surrender of "best luxury car" status to BMW/Mercedes.
#98
http://www.jdpower.com/cars/articles...tudy-key-stats
Infographic: 2017 U.S. Initial Quality Study Key Stats
June 21, 2017The J.D. Power U.S. Initial Quality StudySM (IQS), published since 1987, examines problems experienced by original vehicle owners during the 1st 90 days of ownership. Initial quality is determined by the number of problems experienced per 100 vehicles (PP100), with a lower score reflecting higher quality.This year’s study shows an 8% improvement in quality. Once again, the Korean brands outperform their Japanese, domestic, and European competitors. And, Kia ranks highest overall for a 2nd consecutive year.
In the infographic that follows, we present some key statistics and findings from the 2017 U.S. Initial Quality Study.
I am pretty sure the issues for stem from their remote touch infotainment system. The system is appalling. And the idea to not have a dedicated A/C or radio presets is just silly. Now, why all of sudden has this issue come up after the system has been available since 2012 does not make sense.
#99
Good for you, no sarcasm. I am beyond sick of people thinking that driving is secondary to other things when behind the wheel.
#100
That's possible. But like me and you know, there is that one friend of ours that uses a window phone right or better yet my dad that does not even know how to turn his phone's Bluetooth on how would he link to the apple carplay or android auto?
Truth is there will always be something.
Truth is there will always be something.
#102
Yes, my suspension and wheel are AMG version.
You are talking about reliability, I'm talking about driving quality.
Mercedes E400 is far superior on the road and over the bumper than GS350 does.
and E400 (including my previous E350) has very sold feeling, no any rattle or cracking noise.
You are talking about reliability, I'm talking about driving quality.
Mercedes E400 is far superior on the road and over the bumper than GS350 does.
and E400 (including my previous E350) has very sold feeling, no any rattle or cracking noise.
Neither you or I, or anyone else really knows the true torsional rigidity/bending stiffness of the E Class.
To do that, we'd have to purchase at least two E Class Benzes, place them on a rig; bend the first E Class, and twist the second E Class.
This is similar to crash testing - it is ruthlessly expensive.
We can only "subjectively" feel how solid the body structure is.
Benz AMG Sports suspension is only firm on the dampers [shock absorbers], and not actually firm on the coil springs.
Because their coil springs are still quite soft, their coil springs are compliant and absorb the shock such that their E Class body "feels" solid over bumps, with few creaks/rattles.
The 4GS is unusually both firmly sprung and damped.
That's why the shock is transmitted directly to the 4GS's body structure.
Because of the firmer coil springs, even if the 4GS didn't creak and rattle immediately, long term, I wouldn't be at all surprized if the 4GS creaked and rattled more than the old E350 or new E400.
Coil springing is a compromize.
Soft springing has certain good and bad points; while firm springing also has certain good and bad points.
Soft springing gives comfort and a feeling solidity to the body structure, however this comes at a cost to weight transfer to the outside wheels, resulting in loss of both initial grip for sharp steering response [agility], and terminal grip on the skid pan [cornering speed].
Presently and unfortunately, there is no perfect suspension system.
This post explains the difference between firm springing, as opposed to firm damping:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car-chat/860154-lexus-loses-its-luster-in-j-d-power-quality-study-3.html#post9903363
To give you a rough idea of how 3GS, E350, 535i and 4GS compare for damping control, look at the graph below, or watch the entire video.
Whenever we see the word "control", we immediately think of damping [nee shock absorbers].
The E350 is very soft in damping control as usual.
As usual, BMW 5 Series damping is generally firmer than Benz E Class damping.
While the 4GS is unusually firm in damping control.
Although AMG damping is firmer than standard, it is still not as firm as 4GS damping, especially 4GS F Sport damping on Sports+ Mode.
C/G = Current Generation 3GS
N/G = New/Next Generation 4GS
Tires are also a compromize, and the soft quiet tires generally don't handle and grip as sharply as the stiffer sidewalled, harder and noisier riding tires.
The bottom line is that firm damping doesn't really have anything to do with the body structure feeling solid from the absence of creaks and rattles.
It is the tires, air pressures, bushings, suspension subframe hydraulic fluid filled mounts, and in particular, the soft coil springs that really absorbs the shock, to reduce impact shock transmissions to the body structure which causes creaks and rattles...
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-22-17 at 02:41 PM.
#103
It could be that a lot of respondents have been exposed to other systems or have other vehicles with better systems and realize the one in their Toyota or Lexus isn't up to par these days.
#104
Tesla
http://www.autonews.com/article/2017...ity-study-data
Tesla snubs J.D. Power for Initial Quality Study data
June 21, 2017 @ 4:48 pmHave an opinion about this story? Click here to submit a Letter to the Editor, and we may publish it in print.
They don't, based off J.D. Power's 2017 U.S. Initial Quality Study that was released Wednesday. That's not because Tesla Inc. doesn't make quality vehicles, but because it doesn't allow J.D. Power access to its customer registration data for the survey.
"I don't know that they're hiding anything. They just don't want to participate," Dave Sargent, vice president, global automotive at J.D. Power, said when releasing the annual survey results here at an Automotive Press Association meeting. "It's not like their cars are falling apart."
For the annual study -- which started 30 years ago -- J.D. Power collects customer registration data from each state. It uses that information to send surveys to consumers who have leased or purchased a new vehicle for that given model year to report any problems they may have experienced in the first 90 days of ownership.
But some states, including Tesla's home of California, require automakers to grant state officials permission to release the data.
All automakers aside from Tesla have granted such access, according to Sargent. J.D. Power, he said, receives about 30 percent of Tesla's customer data. That amount is not enough for the company to place the automaker in its Initial Quality Study, which is viewed as an industry benchmark for quality.
"They don't want to play this game," he said. Later adding, "We're hoping they will come to the party because we're increasingly getting this question."
A Tesla representative did not immediately respond for comment. A direct tweet to Tesla CEO Elon Musk, an avid tweeter, also went unanswered.
Small samples
Historically, small sample size has prevented some automakers from appearing in the annual rankings in both the Initial Quality Study and the J.D. Power Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout Study. Other smaller brands, including Smart this year, have been included in the study but not ranked because of a lack of sample size.
J.D. Power has evolved the study in recent years to focus more on emerging technologies of new vehicles, a space Tesla has always claimed to lead with the Model S and Model X.
The Tesla models, since their debut, have included a large center console screen and typically have been first to market with many advanced systems and technologies, including its highly watched Autopilot system that has drawn criticism due to reported accidents.
The launches of both vehicles -- particularly the Model X -- came under some criticism due to delays and reported quality issues involving new components such as falcon-wing doors.
Tesla report
In March, J.D. Power released a special report on Tesla, called "Tesla: Beyond the Hype." According to a release, problems associated with the Model S and Model X have little influence on the overt affection owners have for these cars and the brand.
The report, according to J.D. Power, was based on multiple focus groups of Tesla owners and an in-depth evaluation of Tesla models against competitive vehicles by automotive research experts at J.D. Power.
DETROIT -- How do the quality ratings for the 2017 Tesla Model S and Model X compare to competitors?
They don't, based off J.D. Power's 2017 U.S. Initial Quality Study that was released Wednesday. That's not because Tesla Inc. doesn't make quality vehicles, but because it doesn't allow J.D. Power access to its customer registration data for the survey.
"I don't know that they're hiding anything. They just don't want to participate," Dave Sargent, vice president, global automotive at J.D. Power, said when releasing the annual survey results here at an Automotive Press Association meeting. "It's not like their cars are falling apart."
For the annual study -- which started 30 years ago -- J.D. Power collects customer registration data from each state. It uses that information to send surveys to consumers who have leased or purchased a new vehicle for that given model year to report any problems they may have experienced in the first 90 days of ownership.
But some states, including Tesla's home of California, require automakers to grant state officials permission to release the data.
All automakers aside from Tesla have granted such access, according to Sargent. J.D. Power, he said, receives about 30 percent of Tesla's customer data. That amount is not enough for the company to place the automaker in its Initial Quality Study, which is viewed as an industry benchmark for quality.
"They don't want to play this game," he said. Later adding, "We're hoping they will come to the party because we're increasingly getting this question."
A Tesla representative did not immediately respond for comment. A direct tweet to Tesla CEO Elon Musk, an avid tweeter, also went unanswered.
Small samples
Historically, small sample size has prevented some automakers from appearing in the annual rankings in both the Initial Quality Study and the J.D. Power Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout Study. Other smaller brands, including Smart this year, have been included in the study but not ranked because of a lack of sample size.
J.D. Power has evolved the study in recent years to focus more on emerging technologies of new vehicles, a space Tesla has always claimed to lead with the Model S and Model X.
The Tesla models, since their debut, have included a large center console screen and typically have been first to market with many advanced systems and technologies, including its highly watched Autopilot system that has drawn criticism due to reported accidents.
The launches of both vehicles -- particularly the Model X -- came under some criticism due to delays and reported quality issues involving new components such as falcon-wing doors.
Tesla report
In March, J.D. Power released a special report on Tesla, called "Tesla: Beyond the Hype." According to a release, problems associated with the Model S and Model X have little influence on the overt affection owners have for these cars and the brand.
The report, according to J.D. Power, was based on multiple focus groups of Tesla owners and an in-depth evaluation of Tesla models against competitive vehicles by automotive research experts at J.D. Power.
#105
perhaps because consumers are more sophisticated these days and expect things to work as well or better than their cell phones, tablets, etc. and many cars have HORRIBLE user interfaces.
Last edited by bitkahuna; 06-22-17 at 08:55 PM.